Dremel 4 Inch Table Saw Adventures, Modeling Tools

[Outlaw]

Sorry if this is resurrecting an older thread - Not a member - I was just looking for info on the 4" Dremel, as I compared it to my 1936, Companion (Craftsman) Tilt table 7" T-saw.  - Made by Central Specialty Division,  a division of King Seeley for Sears,  I have been doing finger jointing on it and other fine work for several years. 

 

The table is only about 11X14,  and I just completed mounting it on an old school typing table (the type with retractable casters) to further reduce its footprint.  The motor was mounted underneath, and uses a 4" door hinge for a gravity belt tension.  The bearings (bronze), despite being 85 years old, are in perfect shape with no wobble or chatter.   

 

While not common,  they are worth watching for as I think they would be a great choice for the work y'all seem to do.

[Gregory]

Sounds interesting..  Show us some pictures...

[Roger Pellett]

My father used one of these saws to build an L. Francis Herreshoff H-23 (Prudence) Sailboat)  fully framed and planked.  The boat was launched in 1950 and he continued to use the saw until he died in 1986.  I think that he modified it to use an 8in blade.  I passed it on to my Brother-in-law but doubt that he ever used it.  It was, and presumably is, indestructible.

 

Roger

Edited January 20, 2021 by Roger Pellett

[Bob Cleek]

20 hours ago, Outlaw said:

While not common,  they are worth watching for as I think they would be a great choice for the work y'all seem to do.

The 1950's era Craftsman 8" table saw is a better "old 'arn" option. They don't make 'em like they used to. The 8" saw is a fixed table with a tilting arbor. The smaller "Companion" tilt-table model was originally their "second best" line below Craftsman. The tilting table gives many concern regarding safety of operation. 

[Outlaw]

Here is  my saw, as a WIP, and as it was setup for some work on the old (original) stand - I haven't tried it but I think this will take an 8" blade without mods.:

 

I had two 10" Craftsman saws, both on one stand I built, and bolted together for "free extensions",  I had extensions outside those two as well, and the fence guide setup for continuous use) - I never used it as this little guy was just handier to pull out for the ripping and finger joint work I was typically doing.  So I sold that off and  recovered the garage space.    

 

I also have an earlier Atlas built 8" from 1937-41, that can take a thicker Dado setup.  The little guy can hold 3 carbide blades (slightly staggered) and that's my finger joint setup.  The 8" will take the larger dados,  and is a tank and also has the tilting arbor.  

 

 

[Gregory]

44 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

The tilting table gives many concern regarding safety of operation. 

 

That was back before they had to put a sticker on it that said " Don't use this in the bath tub..

[thibaultron]

Currently on Ebay, there is a seller who has just started listing accessories for the saw. He has several, including a better rip fence, miter gauge, and a back plate. I ordered the fence and the plate. I contacted him, and he plans to keep listing new items. He has been making them for several years. Presently he has the fence, plate and gauge at least available.

[Bob Cleek]

The safety issues of a tilting table circular saw aside (Can you say "kickback?") these are good little machines. I doubt, however, that one can source thin-kerf slitting blades for them. If you can, then they can work for modeling, although you will have to use "zero-clearance" blade insert plates and arrange some sort of highly accurate fence system to ensure the repeatable accuracy of the cuts. 

[Roger Pellett]

At present there are several Sears Craftsman “Satin Thin Rip Veneer” blades for sale on EBay.  Harold Hahn used these blades to saw all of the wood for his 1:96 and 1:48 scale POF models.  This was before the Preac and Byrnes miniature table saws were available.  Based on his experience I bought a couple of these blades and used them to saw boxwood and pear for a POF model that I built. They worked fine.

 

I don’t understand the need for a tilting arbor or tilting table if the saw is to be limited to model shipbuilding. 90 percent of the sawing that I do is ripping and the rest crosscutting.

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

At present there are several Sears Craftsman “Satin Thin Rip Veneer” blades for sale on EBay.  Harold Hahn used these blades to saw all of the wood for his 1:96 and 1:48 scale POF models.  This was before the Preac and Byrnes miniature table saws were available.  Based on his experience I bought a couple of these blades and used them to saw boxwood and pear for a POF model that I built. They worked fine.

 

I don’t understand the need for a tilting arbor or tilting table if the saw is to be limited to model shipbuilding. 90 percent of the sawing that I do is ripping and the rest crosscutting.

I recall reading with some surprise that Hahn did indeed use those blades back when he built his models "in the days of wooden chips and iron men." Finish wood was a lot less dear and more widely available back then, as well, so the kerf width wasn't so much of a consideration. The depth of cut on those Craftsman blades was 1 and 1/4", which probably explains why Hahn devised a jig to cut the pieces for gluing up his frame blanks... that was as wide a sheet stock as he could get. Interestingly, on the other side of the pond in Hahn's time, Gerald Wingrove was cutting his strips on the table saw attachment on his Unimat SL. 

 

I checked those Craftsman plywood blades out on eBay. I'm not so sure about buying used circular saw blades on eBay. With the high tooth count, I expect the saw sharpening shop would charge a bit to sharpen one. I expect they didn't get a lot of "mileage" out of one cutting plywood, which can be hard on an edge. I'll have to check, but I may even have one in my stash in the shop, inherited from my father decades ago. Delta and others currently make comparable high-tooth-count, (relatively) thin-kerf plywood-cutting blades, some less expensive new than the used ones on eBay. StewMac makes a 6" "fret-slotting table saw blade" with the outer 3/8" or so  of the edge hollow ground down to .023", but its depth of cut is very limited. That puppy will set you back around $150.00. https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/types-of-tools/saws/fret-slotting-table-saw-blade.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=2021-03-gp&gclid=Cj0KCQiA1pyCBhCtARIsAHaY_5fEdm8TK9oqsPrp2m7Lu8AeI0SXQvFi4cnuQ9byVdTiKgVLVwa3EIoaApVqEALw_wcB Freud has a 10"x80T thin kerf "Ultimate Plywood and Melamine Blade" with a 3/32" kerf for around $75.00 on sale. https://www.amazon.com/Freud-Ultimate-Plywood-Melamine-LU79R010/dp/B000GJTIIK

 

I have a 1950 Craftsman/King Seeley 8" tilting arbor table saw that was my father's. It gets little or no use these days, since I have a Delta Unisaw and a Byrnes saw, but when it was all I had, I got a lot of use out of it. I still have all my fingers, no doubt due to my Guardian Angel working overtime. I always feel using it is a bit like playing with a pet rattlesnake. (Not that I don't feel the same about the other saws, though less so with the Jim Saw.) The fence on the Craftsman is very fiddly to set up and keep set and with the relatively small table, I have to set up infeed and outfeed roller supports for stock of any length. I have a good selection of molding head cutters for it, though, and I occasionally use it for that. Someone who had the smaller Craftsman tilting table saw with a thin kerf, high tooth count, blade for it wouldn't go far wrong, if they had a fence that didn't drive them crazy. What's scary about  these "widdowmakers" is that there is the tendency for the work to slide "downhill" when sawing with the table tilted, but that can be compensated for with caution and a jig if you need it. It's just that with a 3/32" kerf, cutting 1/16" strips will cost you more in sawdust than you're getting in stripwood, which is okay for some, I suppose. Everybody's mileage differs.

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

Bob,

 

The blades that I am describing look like but are not plywood blades.  They are larger versions of the Thurston blades used with the Byrnes saw but slightly hollow ground.  As far as I know, they were a proprietary  Sears product.  When sharp they do produce a beautiful satin finish.

 

I met Harold Hahn on a couple of occasions, the first in 1975 at the NRG Conference held in the very small (pop 15000) Ohio River Town of Marietta, Ohio where my wife and I were living at the time.  I read about the upcoming conference in our local newspaper and was surprised to learn that there was an organization devoted to maritime research and ship modeling.  The attendees were a roster of whose who in the ship modeling world.  I immediately joined up and this past year received my 45 year bar to go with my pin.

 

In those days you could buy 1 inch (3/4 inch actual) thick planks of true boxwood, I still have two waiting for a project, and I believe that Hahn started with full thickness lumber to build his models.

 

The problem with getting the blades sharpened is not the cost but getting the sharpener to not set the teeth!

 

At least one of the blades is supposedly new.

 

Roger

[thibaultron]

Part 007

I bought two new parts for the saw, a backplate and a new rip fence. I got both off of Ebay, from a gentleman who says he has been making them for years. He plans to continue offering them through Ebay.

A. The Backplate

The back of the saw is open, from the factory, and this plate fits in the empty space. It thus closes the back from any things that might otherwise, accidentally intrude back there. It provides a port to attach a shop vac, which with the back plate on will actually do some good. It also braces the sides of the base to stiffen it. The other important item it provides is an additional lock for the back of the saw blade housing!

 

This picture shows the outside of the plate (once installed). The knob in the curved slot is the rear blade housing lock. The aluminum angle bracket is the brace. Of course, the tube is the vacuum hose attachment port. The castellated top fits into the groves of the underside of the saw table.

 

 

This is the inside of the plate. The nut on the shaft of the knob, is just to hold it during shipping, and will be discarded. The wing nuts are used when attaching the brace.

 

 

Here is a picture of the instruction sheet.

 

 

When installing the backplate, you must either discard the little rear blade guard, or figure out an alternate mounting for it. The backplate fits in tight against the blade housing, so the guard would have to be moved to the inside of the housing. If you look closely at the first picture, you will see scribed lines marking the area you would have to remove to allow for new mounting screws. I chose to simply remove the guard, as the plate seals this area anyway.

 

 

 

 

The upper screw hole in the housing is where the new knob will screw in.

 

The plate is slid in inside the opening and sits down onto the bottom of the table, between the housing and the adjacent ridge.

 

 

 

 

I found that the plate did not fit solidly to the bottom of the table, which has apparently bowed just slightly over the years. This allowed the plate to rock a bit, so I cut a little off of the longer parapet area in the center. Now the plate sits firmly against the table. One effect of this was that the plate sat a little further down causing the knob shaft to rub on the plate. I filed the slot a little wider to fix this.

 

 

 

 

Here are shots of the plate in place.

 

 

 

 

Next the rear brace is installed. Check the fit, as the attachment screw holes are not symmetrical with the center of the base, so the brace only fits with the horizontal lip toward the table. I replaced the wingnuts with 10-24 nylon locknuts. Tighten the nuts down until the nuts on the brace touch the plate. This holds the plate firmly in place. In addition I’m going to drill a hole through the  two lips on the base to insure that the plate can’t shift during sawing.

 

 

B. The Rip Fence

 

The Rip Fence is a big improvement over the factory one. It clamps more securely and has an adjustable fence blade. The fence clamps front to rear, like a full size saw fence, not just with a clamp under the front lip, like the factory one. The back of the factory fence is free floating, being held square just by the stub on the clamp casting on the front of the fence. The new fence is also taller than the original, allowing for more controlled cuts. The new fence can be fine tuned to your saw table, using the two adjustment screws on the main body.

 

The manufacturer also included a nice push stick with it!

 

 

 

 

For my saw I had to fine tune the front lip. As there were a few burs and dings on it. I used a large flat mill file on the front and under the front lip to smooth things out. This is why there are gray areas in the last picture, that is the bare plastic showing through.

 

The adjustment also comes in handy, as I found the front lip to not be perfectly straight on mine. So I can now adjust the blade, if needed, for each fence position. The error is not very large, so most times I will not have to worry about it.

[thibaultron]

Part 008

I also bought three Zero Clearance plates for the saw, from Radical RC.

 

The center ridge you see on the bottom of the uninstalled one acts as a stiffener and the rear clamp.

 

When I installed the one shown, I had to press along the edges, after tightening the screw, to snap it flush over the whole surface.

 

I have not run the blade up through any of them yet. I’ll wait until I’m ready to use one. I don’t want to keep putting them on and off, in case doing so shifts them a little, after the slot is cut.

 

They are ~$10 US each, so not a bad deal!

 

I also bought a better miter gauge, off Ebay, from the same seller as the backplate, and rip fence. I’ll review that when it comes in.

[thibaultron]

Part 009

Yesterday the new Miter Gauge I bought from the same person I purchased the backplate and rip fence from arrived. It is a well made all aluminum assembly with nice large angle markings on it. It fit well in the table slot, with only a little slop, much less than the factory one. It also has a larger miter assembly, with one side angled at 45 degrees. The gauge has a nice thick blade screwed onto the protractor, giving a good surface to hold your work piece to. The only down side I see to it is that the position marker on the slide is a dot, rather than a line, making it harder to set the correct angle. The locking screw is well made and provides a strong grip when tightened.

 

 

 

 

I tried cutting some old ¾” X ¾” hard pine strips on it for a project. It did stall a couple times, when I tried to feed it through too quickly, but I was using a 100 tooth blade rather than a more suitable one. The finish on the cut ends was smooth. This size wood is at what I would consider the upper limit, in thickness, so I was happy with the performance.

[grsjax]

The same eBay seller makes a sliding table for the Dremel saw. 

[Don Case]

I'm just curious, with all these add-ons, are you getting close to the price of a Byrnes?🙂

[thibaultron]

No I bought the saw for less than $100. Wish I could have had enough for the Barnes. I've added these on over the course of a couple years.

[Altduck]

Spoiler

Ron

re “The only down side I see to it is that the position marker on the slide is a dot, rather than a line, making it harder to set the correct angle.”

 

You might try stoning off the pip from the punch mark, screw or epoxy a piece of Al the same thickness as the arc close to it, set it as square as you can and then scribe a new index mark at “90”

 

Looks like a well made accessory.

 

 

[drlang]

Is it me or is the dremel table saw worthless and gutless?  I got a used one for $40 and after sharpening the blade, it will not rip the smallest board.  I am disgusted with it, wondering if should invest in a good blade.  Sorry for the rant.

[oldmate]

The last thing I would say is the it is "worthless and gutless" I have had mine for years and it has plenty of power. It suer is not a Byrnes saw but if it could be fine tuned a bit more I would be happier. You do not mention the species or thickness of the wood you are cutting. Remember these Dermel saws are not only "old", but many have been miss used and poorly stored. Clean it up, align everything and by all means get a new blade. It just might be the original blade.

 

Good luck

Ric

[Jaager]

On 12/11/2022 at 2:36 PM, drlang said:

after sharpening the blade,

 

This is not a proper test of the saw.  A new blade would make for a fair test.

It is probably worth less than you pay for it, but HF has a 4"x1/2"arbor 24 tooth carbide blade for $6.00.

It will probably cut better than a blade resharpened by a non-professional.

 

First off, in comparison to a Byrnes saw, the Dremel is junk. 

It will cut.  

The engineering design choices produced a cheesy machine from the start.

 

Just remember that the blade has to match the job it is asked to do.

Ideal is 3-4 teeth in the thickness of the wood.  More teeth = a filled gullet - no cutting, just friction.

A thin blade has more teeth - is called a slitting blade for a reason. 

Wanting less waste to kerf is a universal goal.  Unfortunately, the physics will not support this as far as blade thickness to tooth count.   Someday, a blade material that is paper thin, is really stiff, and is affordable  may be discovered. 

You want less loss to kerf with thick stock?  A bandsaw - a big (14") bandsaw - is the tool for the job. The cost is that all bandsaw blades have a set.  Some have more than others, but none are hollow ground.  There will be additional loss when sanding off the blade scars.

[Roger Pellett]

It sounds to me like your saw needs a tune up.  The rip fence must be parallel to the blade.  Actually, the Byrnes saw fence provides a slight relief behind the blade but that’s a detail you can ignore.  Check the alignment using the crosscut groove in the table top as a datum.  If you have access to a dial indicator clamp it to your miter gage, and clamp the rip fence down tight.  When the indicator tip touches the fence set it to 0.  Slide it along the fence and adjust the fence alignment until the gage doesn’t deviate from 0.  If you don’t have a dial indicator you can do the same thing by clamping a block of wood to your miter gage that touches the fence and then adjusting the fence until the miter gage slides back and forth while still touching the fence.  A feeler gage can help you to make sure that the block is touching.  Even a Byrnes saw will not cut with a misaligned fence.

 

Roger

[David W]

Scanning through this thread makes me curious as to whether my 10" JET saw could be set up with a smaller diameter and narrow kerf blade and used for fine model work. It already has a Delta precision fence and an Incra miter gauge. I have cut in the past doing woodworking long lengths of wood that you can almost read the newspaper through after a good tune up. Hmmmm.

 

Oh and that Dremel saw - looks like a great way to do small work with the mods.

[Roger Pellett]

David,

 

Elsewhere on the forum you will find several threads about Harold Hahn.  Mr. Hahn build POF models back in the 1970’s and 80’s.  His workmanship was first class, and his models are displayed in several museum collections.  He built his first models from maple but later switched to the high end modeling woods- Boxwood and Holly.

 

Mr Hahn’s principal power tool was an 8in table saw using a Sears Kromedge Thin Rip Veneer blade.  He cut frame stock, planking, etc. using this setup.  Based on Hahn’s experience, I set my used Sears Table Saw up as Hahn had done and cut pear, Boxwood, and Holly into model sized pieces to build a POB model.

 

You have better equipment than I did and I suspect better than Hahn did.  You will need a zero gap insert to keep the blade from swallowing your work. Blank inserts should be available for Jet saws.

 

Roger

 

 

[Charles Green]

David W:

 

Search MSC and McMaster Carr for "slotting and slitting blades"; very narrow kerf blades, some with 5/8 dia. arbor holes.  There are quite a few from 2" to 4" dia. but I wonder if your arbor carriage will raise enough to bring these small dia. blades above the table. 

 

All of these blades are high tooth-count, with no set, made for cutting one type of metal or another.  They are designed for use with coolant. They will work for shallow slots/cuts in wood, but a little heat from too much friction will cause them to warp.

 

In your search, filter out the solid carbide blades; $$$$$$!  HSS blades with 0.6299/10mm and 0.630 arbor holes are around $50.00. 

 

One advantage of using small saws for small work is they allow you to get close to see what is going on. 

 

For small-work on your table-saw, you will have to cut dedicated, zero-clearance throat-plates for these blades. 

 

If you can find a used PREAC saw, they are designed for two to three-inch dia.

slitting blades.

[Roger Pellett]

I used to own a Preac saw.  It was a nice little machine but underpowered.  For reducing 1in and thicker lumber to model ship sizes your full sized table saw will work just fine.

[mtaylor]

For zero clearance inserts I make my own as I found the plastic deform with a shop vac hooked up does control using the saw's vacuum port.  What ended up doing was using ply the thickness of the factory insert and then run some braces one the bottom of the insert such they drop below the insert mounting.    Install blade and run the blade up to where comes out the top to the height I need for the wood thickness plus some.  I found that with due care, they last a long time and I make several at once using different width blades.

[Jaager]

14 hours ago, David W said:

this thread makes me curious as to whether my 10" JET saw could be set up with a smaller diameter and narrow kerf blade and used for fine model work.

I do not think that you will find it helpful to opt for a blade with a smaller diameter.  The height that a blade can rise above the table is set by the machine and is usually around 2" or less with a 10" blade.  A 10" blade can be set to as small an exposure as anything smaller.

The target would be a 10" rip blade with as small a blade thickness as can be had for a quality blade.

 

I have an old Craftsman 7.5"  - I think it was a contractors portable for its designed use. 

I used a hollow ground planer blade - all steel - The kerf was less than other type blades.  Because of the grind, the depth of cut was less for even a 7.5".  The teeth were not designed for rip cuts thru thick stock.  It tended to burn the wood if I was cutting 1" stock. 

 

The message is not that a 10" saw will not be adequate for milling 1" stock - it certainly will.  And it will probably be faster than a bandsaw.  If you are careful with the feed, the cuts are almost always straight.  The blades are much less likely to wander or do wedge cuts.  It will not be easy, but with the right fence increment fixtures,  which you will probably have to design and fabricate, the thickness of a cut can be just as controlled as a Byrnes.

 

The cost is:

That there will be significantly more loss of stock to kerf.

Doing multiple passes and flipping stock to cut thicker stock will probably be messy and need a lot of thickness sander work - more significant loss.

The degree of tissue damage possible because of inattention or poor technique is greater with a 10" than a Byrnes or a bandsaw.  

A kickback missile will have significantly more kinetic energy.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Jaager

[David W]

Good comments all. Thanks

I looked at slotted and slitting blades on McMaster- Carr where I do have an account. While those blades may be a good alternative, none have a 5/8" arbor hole with most being larger.

While I haven't found a thin kerf 10" blade do have a couple of 7.5" that may work assuming I can find them in the house move clutter I still am suffering. I haven't checked blade height/extension yet but will soon. As far as wasted wood - oh well.

I make my saw table inserts from 1/2" phenolic and currently have a couple blanks made up along with some additional stock. I cut them to fit, add 4 leveling Allen set screws. Been doing this almost as long as I have owned the saw as the original aluminum one was cracked from the day it came home as a  new saw.

Then there is the fact my current workshop is the garage and todat at 20*F ......................

 

 

[Jaager]

4 hours ago, David W said:

While those blades may be a good alternative, none have a 5/8" arbor hole with most being larger.

Jim sells bushings.    They are excellent at adapting 1" arbors to fit a 4" table saw.

 

One more difference with using a table saw for milling lumber:

It really wants the stock it cuts to have at least one face surfaced and one side edged.

 4x4 lumber that is S2S is actually 13/16" thick - about 1/4" is lost to the planer - but you pay for the full 1".

 

A band saw is more forgiving.  I use rough lumber.  The first cut of a rough edge riding the face of the fence is usually scrap,  but sometimes the thickness sander is able to salvage something.  A 4x4 board produces a 1" wide slice.  I have to watch for checks.   Any ripping of the slice wants the face that against the fence to be edged.  For frame timbers, the condition of the edge does not matter ( except for deep checks ).  I prefer 8x4 stock.  I can get less waste by having a 2" wide surface to arrange my patterns.  

 

( At 1:60 the floors for most ships need 3" and a first rate needs 4"  for the frames close to the bow and stern.  I do not use cant frames.  Since it can't be seen,  I now make those floors be two pieces.  I have the cut at the edge of the keel and alternate the side in the sequence. )