Byrne's Saw Reference (also good for other desktop hobby saws)

[scrubbyj427]

Can anyone here who has a Byrnes saw give me a pointer on what’s happening here? I can’t see what’s going on but my rip fence seems to be off about 1degree. Hopefully it shows in these photos.

Thanks for any advice,

JJ

 

edit: 

problem solved, everyone please be careful when setting up their rip fences!!! Mistakes can be made!

Edited December 31, 2020 by scrubbyj427
Problem solved

[Charles Green]

Hello Decoyman:

 

MSC Industrial Supply, USA company with a division in the UK sells an enormous variety of blades under the categories of "Slotting" blades and "Jeweler's" blades.  You will find any arbor dia., blade dia., tooth count or blade thickness you want in HHS, Tin coated or some in solid carbide.  You will have to establish and account - no cost, just contact info - and there is a $25.00 minimum order.

 

Their catalog ranges to 6000 pages.  It's fun to look through.

[Decoyman]

Thanks, Charles - i'll look them up.

 

Kind regards

 

Rob (Decoyman)

[Charles Green]

Scrubbyj427:

 

Take a close look and you will see the deviation starts at the center-line of the arbor.  This angle provides relief so the stock passing by the back-side of the blade doesn't catch on the blade and get thrown back at you.  It's a common and recommended thing to do on any table-saw rip-fence.  It's usually done by slightly angling the entire fence.  Jim's way assures precise positioning of the stock on the way into the blade.  By  the half-way mark, the cut is done.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Charles Green
clarity

[Decoyman]

Charles,

 

Your explanation of Scrubby's fence - if I understand you correctly - suggests there is a machined 'bow' to the blade side. I've checked mine and it is dead straight. Perhaps Jim has changed the design of his saw, but it looks to me as though the whole fence is misaligned. Also the blade seems offset in its slot, although that might just be the photo.

 

Attached are photos of my saw showing the fence almost exactly parallel with the guide slots in the table and the slot for the blade.

IMG_4338.HEIC IMG_4336.HEIC

[Charles Green]

Decoyman:

 

The offset in Scrubby's first photo looks excessive, I assumed some photo induced distortion was present.  A closer look makes me agree the whole fence was misaligned. 

 

On my saw the fence's angle away from the blade starts at the arbor's mid-point.  At the back-end of the fence it only amounts to a 0.005 inch off-set, but it's enough to keep the stock off the back-side of the blade.

[jimbyr]

Scrubby

 

The best way to square the fence is with a dial indicator if you have one or have access to one. The first set of instructions is for an indicator. The second set is for the machinist square. 

 

Dial Indicator

1.  Remove the fence extension, four 4-40 cap screws located at the corners, use a 3/32 hex            wrench.

2.  Clamp indicator to miter or cut a piece of hard wood 1/2 by 6" so it fits in the miter slot nicely

    and fasten the indicator to the wood.

3.  Loosen the front four, 4-40 cap screws on the front of the fence bar with a 3/32 hex wrench.
   Do not loosen the back 2 screws.

4.  Slide the fence up against the indicator point until the indicator spins
   1 revolution and lock the front fence block with the brass thumbscrew.

5.  Reset the indicator bezel to "0"

6.  Slide the indicator down the fence as far as the blade center. Do not go
   past the blade center, the fence starts to taper at blade center.

7.  Tap the rear fence block until the indicator needle is back on "0"

8.  Snug the rear fence block brass thumbscrew.

9.  Recheck the fence with the indicator

10.  Adjust the rear block as necessary by tapping it with a soft mallet

11.  Recheck the fence with the indicator

12.  Lock the rear brass thumbscrew

13.  Recheck the fence

14.  Tighten the front 4 capscrews

15.  Recheck the fence

16.  Loosen the front and rear thumbscrews and slide the fence away from the
     indicator.

17.  Slide it back to the indicator and lock the front thumbscrew and recheck
     the fence
ALWAYS LOCK THE FRONT THUMBSCREW FIRST.
Machinist Square

 

1.  Remove the fence extension, four 4-40 cap screws located at the corners, use a 3/32 hex wrench.

2.   Loosen the front and rear brass thumb screws.

3.  Loosen the front four, 4-40 cap screws on the front of the fence bar with a 3/32 hex wrench.
   Do not loosen the back 2 screws.

4.  Place the machinist square up against the front of the table with the beam up against the fence.  Don't worry about the back of the fence not being up against the square,  it has a slight taper to it.  The fence starts tapering at the blade center.

5.   Snug the front and rear brass thumbscrew.  Always front first.

6.   Tighten the front four 4-40 cap screws

7.  Recheck the fence with the square.  If everything is square lock down the front 4-40 screws.  If not adjust the fence until it is square.

8.   Take a few test cuts on some scrap.

 ALWAYS LOCK THE FRONT THUMBSCREW FIRST.

 

regards

Jim

 

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

My Byrnes saw was purchased prior to the “high fence” option.  Before beginning a new project, I would like to add the higher fence.  

 

I notice that Jim’s site includes an option for a extended fence.  Can this be purchased separately and be added by the user or does the saw have to be sent back to Jim.

 

I am naturally concerned about correct alignment.

 

Roger

[kurtvd19]

The extended fence is secured with 4 machine screws into the standard short fence.  If you have 4 tapped holes close to the ends of the short fence you are set to go.  I got mine in 2003 and it was set up for the extended fence at that time.

[scrubbyj427]

5 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

My Byrnes saw was purchased prior to the “high fence” option.  Before beginning a new project, I would like to add the higher fence.  

 

I notice that Jim’s site includes an option for a extended fence.  Can this be purchased separately and be added by the user or does the saw have to be sent back to Jim.

 

I am naturally concerned about correct alignment.

 

Roger

Hi Roger,

I have a brand new extra extended fence. PM me if you are interested.

JJ

[scrubbyj427]

23 hours ago, jimbyr said:

Scrubby

 

The best way to square the fence is with a dial indicator if you have one or have access to one. The first set of instructions is for an indicator. The second set is for the machinist square. 

 

Dial Indicator

1.  Remove the fence extension, four 4-40 cap screws located at the corners, use a 3/32 hex            wrench.

2.  Clamp indicator to miter or cut a piece of hard wood 1/2 by 6" so it fits in the miter slot nicely

    and fasten the indicator to the wood.

3.  Loosen the front four, 4-40 cap screws on the front of the fence bar with a 3/32 hex wrench.
   Do not loosen the back 2 screws.

4.  Slide the fence up against the indicator point until the indicator spins
   1 revolution and lock the front fence block with the brass thumbscrew.

5.  Reset the indicator bezel to "0"

6.  Slide the indicator down the fence as far as the blade center. Do not go
   past the blade center, the fence starts to taper at blade center.

7.  Tap the rear fence block until the indicator needle is back on "0"

8.  Snug the rear fence block brass thumbscrew.

9.  Recheck the fence with the indicator

10.  Adjust the rear block as necessary by tapping it with a soft mallet

11.  Recheck the fence with the indicator

12.  Lock the rear brass thumbscrew

13.  Recheck the fence

14.  Tighten the front 4 capscrews

15.  Recheck the fence

16.  Loosen the front and rear thumbscrews and slide the fence away from the
     indicator.

17.  Slide it back to the indicator and lock the front thumbscrew and recheck
     the fence
ALWAYS LOCK THE FRONT THUMBSCREW FIRST.
Machinist Square

 

1.  Remove the fence extension, four 4-40 cap screws located at the corners, use a 3/32 hex wrench.

2.   Loosen the front and rear brass thumb screws.

3.  Loosen the front four, 4-40 cap screws on the front of the fence bar with a 3/32 hex wrench.
   Do not loosen the back 2 screws.

4.  Place the machinist square up against the front of the table with the beam up against the fence.  Don't worry about the back of the fence not being up against the square,  it has a slight taper to it.  The fence starts tapering at the blade center.

5.   Snug the front and rear brass thumbscrew.  Always front first.

6.   Tighten the front four 4-40 cap screws

7.  Recheck the fence with the square.  If everything is square lock down the front 4-40 screws.  If not adjust the fence until it is square.

8.   Take a few test cuts on some scrap.

 ALWAYS LOCK THE FRONT THUMBSCREW FIRST.

 

regards

Jim

 

 

 

Thank you Jim, I’m going to run through this again.

thanks,

JJ

[Roger Pellett]

I am posting this to tell forum members about reconditioning my Byrnes saw. In doing so I hope to help others wanting to improve the performance of this precision machine.

 

I don’t remember exactly when I bought my Byrnes table saw but I would not be surprised if it was 20 years ago. I must admit that it has not been an entirely happy marriage; burnt blades, stalling during cutting, kickbacks, etc.

So before tackling a new ship model project, I decided to see if I could improve its performance to the point where I could use it without getting frustrated.

 

I first gave the saw a good cleaning and a needed oiling of the blade adjustment mechanism.  I then made a simple bracket from aluminum angle that mounted via a #4 machine screw onto the slide of my miter gage.  My dial indicator could then ride back and forth along this slide to measure the parallax of the rip fence.  I found that the rip fence from the front of the saw to the approximate centerline of the blade spindle deviated from parallel by .006in.

 

To correct this I followed Jim’s procedure posted above.  All went well until I got to the last step.  Each time I loosened the front and back brass finger screws, slid the fence back and forth and retightened the brass finger  screws (front first) the fence measured.006in out of parallel.  It finally dawned on me that tightening the back finger screw was pulling the fence out of alignment.

 

I then went through the alignment procedure except loosening  the two #4 cap screws mounting the back mounting bracket to the fence instead the four #4 cap screws on the front bracket.  This solved the problem as the fence when slid and locked into place remained parallel.

 

I then tackled the blades.  Inventory revealed several Thurston I-192 and I-193  blades, all discolored with deposits of resin.  I began by scraping this off with a single edged razor blade, and cleaning with a Dremel rotary wire brush.  I later tried my wife’s fabric pre -treatment spray.  This loosened the deposit to where it was removed easily.

 

The blade teeth seemed sharp but were badly discolored.  A block of wood with a piece of 1/2in dowel made an effective fixture for holding the blade.  Each tooth was addressed with a small triangular sharpening stone followed with a triangular needle file.  As a final measure, a piece of abrasive cord was run through the gullet of each tooth.  Like dental floss!  I was surprised at the amount of black “gunk” that was removed.

 

Today I mounted a resharpened I-193 blade in my saw.  Using a block of wood to push a piece of 1/4in thick hard maple against the fence and using a push stick I easily sawed off two strips.  There was no discoloring or fouling of the blade. I cannot remember when the saw has worked this well.

 

Similar measurements on my10in table saw indicate that it’s fence is out of alignment by as much as .03in, five times that of the Byrnes saw, but its enormous power allows it to effortlessly chew through almost anything. The lower powered Byrnes saw and metal slitting blades requires much closer alignment.  In the future I will check it regularly.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Roger Pellett

[No Idea]

Hi Roger - I always clean my blades with something similar to this.  Removes all of the gunk and restores its cutting ability.

 

https://www.axminstertools.com/axcaliber-blade-bit-cleaner-500ml-104736

[Don Case]

I used oven cleaner on my Thurston blade. It worked great. Spray it on wait a half hour and rinse it off. I came to the conclusion that because the blades have little or no set even a little burnt gunk is a no-no. It will just get worse. Mine is a home made saw and cleaning the blade made a world of difference. I didn't try to sharpen it. Did you just use the stone straight across( no angle)? To me the teeth just looked like a bunch of chisel points.

[Roger Pellett]

Yes, I just filed straight across with both the stone and the file.  It seemed to work.  While cleaning and sharpening the blade was necessary.  I am convinced that even a slight bit of fence misalignment affects the saw’s performance.

[glbarlow]

On 4/12/2020 at 11:23 PM, mtaylor said:

Thurston blades

Jim Byrnes now recommends Martindale blades, which I use on my Byrnes saw. A new blade from Jim costs $17, why fool around with old blades.  I maintain the saw as Jim recommends an periodically clean the blade with alcohol before much of anything builds up. I’ve had, and cared for, the saw for at least 20+ years and have had zero problems with it other than replacing the blades I use only twice during those 20+ years. 
 

I did cut through the stop on the cross cut table once, Jim sent me a replacement. As someone said, let’s support the maker of the best tools modelers could find and buy what we need from Byrnes Model Machines. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by glbarlow

[No Idea]

Hi Glenn thats was me mate and I stand by what I said.  I have found a few suppliers that can supply me blades but I buy mine from Jim and Donna.  I live in the UK and the postage is high but so what.  Support your supplier and they will be here for your children's children.  If you don't our amazing hobby will become a thing that people used to do.

[welshipmodel]

Any blade suggestions for cutting 1/6" thick styrene sheet to provide the cleanest cut on the Byrne's table saw?

 

I have all of their blades (and then some), but before I started testing the various slotting/slitting blades, I thought that I should ask here first.

 

Thanks in advance.

[mtaylor]

Personally, I have no idea.   However, if you don't get an answer, open a new topic in this sub-forum.    Have you done a search using the search feature?  

[Charles Green]

Jim sells a 4 in., 36 tooth blade marked "Good for Cutting Plastic".

 

I have the above mentioned blade.  I do not have 1/16 inch styrene but I do have 1/8 and 1/32 styrene.  The blade cut both without issue - no chipping or burning.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Charles Green

[welshipmodel]

Thanks for the update Charles.

[No Idea]

A bit of a story here but this may help someone.

 

Today I needed to cut quite a lot of wood starting with some 13mm thick Castello.  It's been a while since I had changed my blade so I fitted a brand new Malco 4" 110T blade.  Now 13mm wood can be difficult to pass through with this blade and sure enough as I got almost through to the end of the blade it all jammed up.

 

So I did the rest of this job using a carbide blade which I don't like using as they are a bit brutal on the wood.  Next I needed to cut some 8mm wood and reverted back to the Malco blade and the exact same thing happened - I literally could not get anything passed the full width of the blade without the whole thing jamming up and stalling.  My lovely saw sounded like a cat in pain 🤣

 

So I thought that the fence must have somehow moved out of alignment so I checked it with a dial gauge and sure enough it was slightly off.  So I corrected this and tried cutting again.  This time it was even worse which really surprised me and I thought that I must have done something wrong setting the fence up.  So for the next couple of hours I must have set the fence at least 10 times and each time I could see that the alignment was perfect but the problem remained.

 

As a last resort I swapped the brand new Malco blade for a brand new Martindale blade - Problem cured!!!

 

I have no idea (I must change my forum name) what was wrong with the Malco blade as I put it back in again and I had the same problem.

 

So if you have this issue and just cannot see why  - swap the blade out even if it looks perfect.  It worked for me and as the fence is now probably the most perfectly aligned in the world the saw is back to its amazing self.  Needless to say the Malco blade became a frisby and is no longer in the house!

 

Cheers Mark

[kurtvd19]

Did you set the fence up to be perfectly parallel or did you st it so it is parallel only up to the blade?  Byrnes builds in a slight taper for more clearance beyond the blade.  It is something like 0.003" to 0.005" to provide relief for the expansion of the cut off.  I don't remember where the taper starts but it would be equal to the centerline of the blade or before the center line of the blade - not beyond the center line.  I know I have the information somewhere and I am looking for it but I bet it's available right here where Jim described the method of adjusting the alignment.

Kurt

 

[druxey]

Is the blade jamming as it has insufficient 'set' or is too fine-toothed and heating up?

[No Idea]

46 minutes ago, kurtvd19 said:

Did you set the fence up to be perfectly parallel or did you st it so it is parallel only up to the blade?  Byrnes builds in a slight taper for more clearance beyond the blade.  It is something like 0.003" to 0.005" to provide relief for the expansion of the cut off.  I don't remember where the taper starts but it would be equal to the centerline of the blade or before the center line of the blade - not beyond the center line.  I know I have the information somewhere and I am looking for it but I bet it's available right here where Jim described the method of adjusting the alignment.

Kurt

 

 

15 minutes ago, druxey said:

Is the blade jamming as it has insufficient 'set' or is too fine-toothed and heating up?

Hi both

 

The fence is set completely parallel up to the middle of the blade as the fence has a taper ground into it beyond that point.  The taper is around 0.10mm from the centre of the blade towards the end of the fence.  These measurements will be in my head forever as I have measured them so many times.

 

I ran a piece through for the umpteenth time and it still jammed so I simply changed the blade.  After changing the blade the saw worked exactly as it should with no jamming at all.  In fact I've been using it since and it's like new - no jamming; clean cuts and no hesitation in pushing the wood through.  Definitely a blade issue and I should have kept it to check it out but I used it like a Chinese throwing star and its stuck in a tree somewhere opposite our home.  That thing cost me a few hours of my life I'm never getting back 🤣. I didn't even get the piece in far enough for heat to become an issue.

 

In all of my years of machining I've never seen this before and it completely perplexed me trying to sort it out.  This is why I posted my findings to maybe save someone else the frustration of such a simple issue.  We work with such fine tolerances that it doesn't take much to jam up a perfectly good machine with a one off dodgy blade

 

Mark

[ChrisLBren]

Hi Mark,

Please share what blade you bought from Martindale for standard ripping of planks and also for stock thicker than 1/4.   I have adjusted my fence quite a bit per instruction and still get stalling in anything much over 1/4 depending on the length of the cut.  This is one of the main reasons I want to buy a band saw.  

Thanks

Chris

[No Idea]

4 minutes ago, ChrisLBren said:

Hi Mark,

Please share what blade you bought from Martindale for standard ripping of planks and also for stock thicker than 1/4.   I have adjusted my fence quite a bit per instruction and still get stalling in anything much over 1/4 depending on the length of the cut.  This is one of the main reasons I want to buy a band saw.  

Thanks

Chris

Hi Chris - Firstly I can only give you my experience as I am no expert with table saws but this is me.  I buy my blades from Jim and Donna Byrnes as I think it's important to give their business as much sales as possible.  The last blades that I received from them are made by Martindale and to my eye they look exactly the same as the Malco blades.

 

For anything above 6mm I tend to use the 4" 0.4 110T blade as is does not deflect and gives a very clean cut.  I can usually cut 13mm thick wood with this blade but I can't force the wood through.  It has lots of teeth and can get clogged and overheat if I do.  So I've learnt to just let the blade and the saw do its thing in its own time.  It's hard to describe but I can feel when it's not right I just know.  Anything thinner than 6mm I drop down to a 0.3 blade as it gives such a lovely clean cut.  For small pieces I use a 0.2 blade and this is my favourite as its just so ridiculously accurate.

 

The planks I cut are often at least 500mm long and I usually have no issues at all.  If you are getting stalling and the fence is set to exactly how it should be it's probably the way you are using the saw.  My advice would be push the wood through as intended which is pushing from the rear of the piece keeping it tight to the fence.  Because the blades we use are slitting saws its no good trying to straighten a cut half way through as this will just twist the blade and cause it to stall.

 

Make sure that the side of the wood that follows the fence is perfectly flat - I've made up a simple sled to make sure that I have a true face and also turn the piece over often to keep that true face.  And that's it I guess but I'm sure many others will have better opinions than me.

 

I've had my saw now for many years and this is the first time ever I've even considered checking the fence.  It just goes to show to me what a great machine this is.  I did cheekily ask Jim to get on and make us a spindle sander again and I wait in hope that he will!

 

Mark

[Thistle17]

I attendd a session of the Modelswrights of Niagara yesterday and was made aware of this procedure. I am about to go through this procedure on my Byrnes saw which was upgraded with the wider table top. I shared the very problems you all relate and I have a drawer full of tortured blades due to the misalignment of the fence. As I think back this all became a problem when the table top was replaced. Of course I was not aware of this procedure. I will feedback my experience for others.

Joe

Edited October 17, 2023 by Thistle17

[No Idea]

Hi Thistle17 - fence alignment is very important and also really easy to do with a DTI.  Since my last post 8 months ago I too have had some issues with thick wood overheating and burning. As I know that my saw is set up exactly it could only be the blade. The 110T blade can bind up quite quickly so I swapped it for a 64T blade. This got the chips out much better and solved my problem. In fact this blade goes through wood like a knife through butter. It also leaves me a good finish on the cutting edge with virtually no chip out. I’ve also noticed that the motor runs a lot cooler too. This is now my go to blade for ripping planks. 

[Toolmaker]

58 minutes ago, No Idea said:

This is now my go to blade for ripping planks.

Hi Mark,

Do you have a link for a supplier of these. The company website is unclear.

Thanks

Paul