PT 109 by popeye the sailor - Dumas

[popeye the sailor]

I've always wanted to try my hand at a Dumas kit.  I've seen projects in the past,  and I liked what I saw    Mog's PT boat project definitely put me over the edge... I had a coincidence of sorts occur.  I was at Hobby Town one day........late last year or early this year { I can't recall which},  when I first came in contact with this kit.  it was in a long brown cardboard box and it looked quite old.......I know that Hobby Town {at least the one in my area} had a policy that they would take complete kits in trade for other kits {mostly R/C stuff}.  since $159.00 seemed a bit steep,  and I didn't want to get killed by the Admiral,  I passed on it and settled on a couple of plastic kits.  Telling the admiral about it,  I was surprised to hear that she wouldn't have killed me if I bought it.  none the less......I didn't go back to get it.  a few months passed.......I did little more than talk about it...I think it was the size of the model that intrigued me the most.  come June of this year,  my son came over,  and out of the blue,  asked me if I still wanted the PT boat.   bewildered as to why he would ask,  I looked at the admiral.......she just shrugged her shoulders,  "if you want it,  go get it.......early birthday present."    she added to get any paints that I wanted as well........they used to be the best place to get paints and wood,  but since they moved,  they've gone more towards R/C than the model kits.  so.......off we went!  looking on the shelf,  I didn't see the long brown cardboard box......there was a long white cardboard box with a huge picture label on it.

 

 

 

 

I was impressed to see a production date on it.......5/2/2018.  the other kit had a note on it about the hardware......I was going to ask about that,  but this new kit,  the question disappeared.  it does resurface though......something I didn't pay any heed to or take into account.  I didn't even have to stoop to pick it up.......Kevin snatched it up....."is this it?"   we browsed a bit before heading to check out.  getting it home,  I did the ceremonial contents check.......

 

 

 

things are jumbled in the box.......I used the other camera to take the initial pictures and they came out blurry.   when I got this new camera,  I retook these pictures.....they are not the complete bunch I took,  but they give you an idea about the kit.  a few weeks did pass before I started to pop out the parts.....mainly to do a dry fit,  look'in on Mog's build and getting curious.  we did PM each other for a short time to share ideas.  the dry fit was comical at the start.......I had the stringers mixed up,  making it look rather odd  

this is the other camera.......these are the better blurry pictures that I could use  

this is the doubling of the #7 bulkhead and the K1 keel { the main part of the keel}

note that the stringer doesn't mate with the bow stem....that was my first clue.  these instruction sheets are quite large and I had to use the dining table to view them.

one thing that would have benefited this model,  would be that the parts were laser cut,  instead of die cut.  the big problem with die cutting,  is that the die blades become dull after a few production runs.   this has the consequence of a lot of chipping and splitting,  resulting in some really rough edges.  from what I can gather,  this is a Spruce plywood.  as much as I tried to finish cut the parts,  these abnormalities still occurred.....good that all this will be on the inside     I didn't really get into building the hull,  until October........that's when the fun began  

[Edwardkenway]

Should be good to watch, you do have an eclectic taste in builds Denis, but watching your builds is always interesting. 

[popeye the sailor]

second thing....there is no mahogany plywood......the outer skin is plastic sheeting.  I'm not going to use it........I'm going to sheet it in 1/16 basswood.  the sheer looks to be basswood.   I read that there were some changes with the kit......how many is unknown,  but I will point them out as I go along.  as with any kit,  there are parts that one may want to change......directions that one may want to deviate from.  this kit is no different.....I've encountered a few already.  the hull frame wasn't terribly hard to build......it does suggest to cement the frame to a large board to keep it level and straight.  I wasn't going to,  but I did notice some slight warping,  and the frame was cemented down in key places.  the stern bulkhead did not make contact with the board though, having a 1/16 gap......simply slipping a piece under the contact points was remedy enough.  the outer skin for the stern was cemented in place....  I can start the covering of the stern end of the frame.

 

these are the plastic sheets that I'm not going to use.......there are a few others.   thinking that these part may be oversized,  I decided to trace out the parts I need as I go along,  cutting down on how much trimming I would have to do.  as far as fairing the frame,  there wasn't too much.....knocking down the high spots and keeping with the contours of the hull bottom {especially at the bow}.

the bow is a question as to how the panels will meet at the keel.  it looks to me that the keel will need to be sanded to a point,  if the seam is to follow down the length of the hull frame.

a curvature can also be seen here.......it disappears at the bow stem.   this is the breakwater for the bow.........the upper section breaks the water,  and the curvature give it the lift it needs at higher speeds.  there was more sanding to get the parameters in shape.

think that the other side would be equal,  a second sheet was cut.  I have it on a large beech plywood sheet,  5/8 thick.   it wasn't until October 16th,  that the first panel was cemented into place.

the sides of the hull spans from the S2 {chine stringer},  to the S1 {sheer stringer}.  these will run all the way to the bow in sections,  so the mating joints will need to be sanded flush to one another.  I do plan on giving the hull a resin coat,  so in the end they should be invisible.

 

[popeye the sailor]

thanks Ed.......I picked at it in the beginning,  but now it's me VS the hull      I hope you get some kind of entertainment value out of it     in spite of some of my observations,  this kit is pretty good  

 

so......being on a big beech sheet,  it does make it interesting turning it around.  I took to doing it due to a small misplacement on the starboard side.  I'll show you it in a bit {there is a picture of it}.  the key is to stay flush to the sheer stringer........the line for the chine stringer will be beveled to the angle of the bottom sheeting.  the joint at this line will be covered by the spray rail and won't be seen.   good planning will produce a decent hull    when dry,  the starboard side was cemented on.......later to have the bottom covered on both sides.  I might have other pictures of this,  but I have all the pictures organized in separate files and they should be in order.  with all the lines sanded....this is what the stern section looks like.

the parts you see clamped are the deck stringers......that's a later story  the next section began,  starting port.......another was shaped for the starboard side.

I just removed all the pins when this was taken.   keen to note that I didn't go all the way to the bulkhead......the center stringer helps to keep it flat to the side......the next section will mate to it fine.  I went one bulkhead further from those two wide stern keel strips,  because I felt that leading onto the K1 keel,  would give it a strength advantage.  not that I plan to make it R/C,  but I always tend to assemble hulls with strength in mind.  the Gothenborg hit the floor twice..........only the stern suffered the most damage {one day I'll get back to her}.   sanding brought the edge flush to the chine stringer,  and next will be the starboard's turn.   I'd continue......there a lot more.......but I've got to go do some Christmas shopping.......I'll add more when I return  

[Egilman]

You have any plans on how your going to finish her? As built, (kit illustration) or as lost? She had a lot of weapons added to her upgrades, (not just the 37mm) like twin .50's from singles, shielded 20mm, initially built with torpedo tubes upgraded to roll offs, etc, etc before she was lost.....

[lmagna]

Are you sure about the roll off aircraft style launch torpedo's EG?

 

I know about the field mounted 37MM gun on the bow, but have never seen anything about the 109 being converted to the side launch system used later, mostly with the MK 13 aerial torpedo.

 

Could it be the PT 59 you are thinking about?

Edited December 16, 2020 by lmagna

[popeye the sailor]

hey there Egilman .........I was going to mention this earlier,  but I wanted to get the show on the road.   I may not emulate the 109........this is her early version.  later versions of the PT boat had the tubes removed,  adding a gun placement,  and {or} depth charges  I even found this 'what if'......I think this would be an interesting combination......however unlikely.

I haven't looked to see if this was an actual vessel,  but it does look kinda cool with the turret    I kinda laughed when I saw that they even had a wooden deck for these models........later I figured that it was just a diagram on how to plank them.  these can be planked in a number of ways...they were constantly under repair.   the most common was planked at the bow and sheeted plywood from the mid section back...some were planked at the bow and stern,  with sheeting in the mid section.  for the time being,  I will assemble the 'bare' PT boat,  and then figure where I want it to go from there.

 

[popeye the sailor]

Christmas shopping went well,  I think..........had my wallet cry'in UNCLE within a couple of hours!  we had talked about capping how many gifts to buy each other......in our younger days,  we didn't buy for ourselves.......it was for the two boys.  now that they're gone,  we kinda spoil each other  

 

had a start today as well.......the fellow on the second floor knocked on our door tell'in us that our water heater was leaking all over the cellar floor.  I went down there......saw the water and the trail,  and showed him where the real leak was......it was the third floor water heater!     I know the kid isn't up on his science,  but some one needs to tell him that water flows away from the epicenter.......    had to tell the landlord about it......Merry Christmas Gary!

 

now.....on with the show.  I took some evening shots of the hull as it stood at the moment....10/23/20

 

 

basically,  more sanding to set the frame up for more sheeting.  the chine at the bow stem has been reinforced because of a small gap there.  also note the #1 bulkhead and the shortcoming on the sheer stringer.  I may need to get creative there.  sanding plays a big part during the sheeting process,  fitting the panels as I go along.

[popeye the sailor]

this next session is the continuation of the sheeting.  the starboard side received its section.

again,  the beveled edge along the chine stringer,  to accept the bottom section sheeting.   at this point,  I need to shape the keel......it need to be beveled on both sides,  forming an apex.

the mating of the two sections.....sanded to the point where it can barely be felt........the chine edge is totally flush on both planes,  coming to a crisp edge.  when the spray rail is added,  it will lay flush.

the apex running forward from the stern will need to compound as it runs to the bow.  where this joint is,  is the starting point.  it will continue shallow here,  and become more acute as it runs 'round the bow stem.

this area still bothers me........run a 'rabbit' under the sheer stringer?  1/16 strip?  for now,  I'm just running a bead of cement along the underside of the sheer stringer.....I left it jutting out for that reason.  so far,  so good  

[popeye the sailor]

I decided that for this session,  I would continue sheeting the sides.....starting with the port side.  I did nothing for under the sheer stringer.......I just laid a bead of cement and let the chine stringer do the rest.  my hunch worked   {also helps when you have Murphy locked in the closet}   

 

trimming the excess was the thing to do here......creating the beveled edge at the chine.  I had sanded the bevel at the bow stem in doing this......I will need to sand the bevel on the starboard side of the stem,  when I do the other side.

it can be seen that I had done some of the sanding along the keel....I'll get a better picture for you,  so you can see how acute it is.  along the sheer stringer,  it looks strange,  but that will be gone when the gunwale and clamp is added.  I'm also working the section joints out too.

I wimped out........so far I have done the sheeting of the starboard side,  without turning the board around.

a small imperfection can be seen along the sheer stringer towards the stern.......it did seal itself though.  again,  the gunwale and clamp rails will cover it and no one will be the wiser   

more sanding and the same trouble points.......

[CDW]

Just now, popeye the sailor said:

Christmas shopping went well,  I think..........had my wallet cry'in UNCLE within a couple of hours!  we had talked about capping how many gifts to buy each other......in our younger days,  we didn't buy for ourselves.......it was for the two boys.  now that they're gone,  we kinda spoil each other  

 

had a start today as well.......the fellow on the second floor knocked on our door tell'in us that our water heater was leaking all over the cellar floor.  I went down there......saw the water and the trail,  and showed him where the real leak was......it was the third floor water heater!     I know the kid isn't up on his science,  but some one needs to tell him that water flows away from the epicenter.......    had to tell the landlord about it......Merry Christmas Gary!

 

 

 

Your boat is coming along beautifully Denis. Does it come with all the fittings or are those extra?

 

Over the Thanksgiving holidays, I had to replace my hot water tank as well. Good thing my sons were here to help me. That would have been a bear for just me. Had a hard time getting the tank to drain properly and that made it very heavy to get on the dolly and outside of the house. Once we got it outside, draining it was no problem. 🤥 Installing the new one was fairly easy, too.

[popeye the sailor]

here is the imperfection I was talking about......

cement filled it nicely.........sanding smoothed it out.   onward with the starboard side sheeting!

 

I cheated a little here.......I'm overlapping the port bow cap.  it won't happen again....promise   

 

the new stuff need to be trimmed and sanded to accept the bottom sheeting.   it continued where it left off........

the curvature of the breakwater starts here at the front.......I used a piece of basswood to help create the curvature.  it gets more pronounce as it runs to the bow.

I left a little excess for sanding purposes.   I use a box cutter to whittle it down closer to the edge.  careful not to gouge it!  a small plane would do wonders here......think I saw them at Model Expo.

the pins are pulled and the trimming and sanding done..........what am I say'in.........it's NEVER done!

time for the other side.......

 

.......didn't turn it around..........I'll never learn    it wasn't bad......beveled the panels along the keel and it fit OK.

 

more sanding.......keeps me occupied  

[popeye the sailor]

hey there CW.......glad to have ya look'in in    there's a bit more to go before I'm caught up with what I've already done.   I'm much happier to be doing this with wood,  rather than the plastic sheeting.  I can just imagine what trimming and sanding I'd be doing,  if I had used it.

 

I replaced a water heater when I owned my house years ago.   it was in a bad place,  right in line with the doorway to the cellar under the addition that was done before I bought the place.  I moved it under the stairway and tore out quite a bit of copper pipe,  rerouting it and plumbing it in.  my dad taught me quite a bit...I owe everything I know to him    my older son Brandon is my carpenter......my younger son Kevin is my automotive nut....I'm passing it forward    in every apartment we've lived in,  I've done some degree of maintenance for the landlord....even this knucklehead.  he's the kind of guy you really hate to volunteer.....well........long story.  he's the landlord,  let him figure this out   

[lmagna]

Nice progress Denis.

 

So this is going to be the PT2020! Should be interesting. All kinds of modern fast attack boats out there but unfortunately very few with the PT style hull these days. (That kind of hull is sometimes a little hard on the human spine and other parts of the human anatomy at the speeds they want these days.) 

 

You would need to make a BUNCH of alterations but here is an interesting modern version. (At least to me)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V_Special_Operations_Craft

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by lmagna

[Egilman]

4 hours ago, lmagna said:

Are you sure about the roll off aircraft style launch torpedo's EG?

I'll research it again Lou, it's been a couple of decades since I last looked....

 

You see this is the thing about getting old, some memories fade or get mixed up....

 

Ballard found the 109's bow in 2002, he went searching for the stern but after striking out and running out of time he took a shot at the bow....

 

And yes he found it at the southeastern end of Blackett Strait near the entrance to Ferguson Passage...... Exactly where Kennedy reported the drift currents took him.... What they found was a torpedo, and a few feet away a torpedo tube still attached to it's training mechanism... (they had to crank the tubes outboard to fire them) Of course the 109 was the only lost PT boat reported in the area so they went nuts, as it was just laying right there in 1300 feet of water..... He was working with the Smithsonian on the project and beamed his film to them and they had a US Navy torpedoman, Welford West, who was aboard the boat that rescued them so that is as good an expert as you could have as to the equipment they were using at the time.... He identified it, (along with Navy torpedo experts) as a Mark 8 torpedo and a Mark 18 tube which was confirmed cause the training gear was still attached...... He also recounted that three months later their tubes were replaced with drop shackles which were easier to load and launch....  They tried to move it but couldn't as it was still securely fastened to something that was buried in the sand, but their penetrating sonar revealed that the object it is attached to is about 7 meters wide the correct width of an Elco PT boat at the forward torpedo tube... So the metal frames that supported the tubes remains but they were pretty sure the plywood hull is long gone.......

 

Without actually pulling up a part with a serial number that can be traced there is some small doubt that it might not be the 109, but relying on movement & loss records of the period, the 109 was the only PT boat reported lost in Blackett Strait and it's exactly where it would be if it sank shortly after Kennedy reported leaving it..... In fact Kennedy reported the need to leave it specifically cause it was starting to sink...

 

The Navy considers it the wreck of the 109 as does the Smithsonian, pulling up an artifact was rejected as it is considered a war grave......

 

So yeah, it still had the old style crank out torpedo tubes....

 

My bad....

[Egilman]

2 hours ago, popeye the sailor said:

I'm overlapping the port bow cap.  it won't happen again

Lapstraking the bow panels are you?, well we will overlook it since you promised not to do it again.... {naughty boy}

[lmagna]

41 minutes ago, Egilman said:

My bad....

Not bad at all really.

When I saw the pictures a while back on the discovery of the 109 I was pretty certain that what was laying on the bottom of one picture was a torpedo tube. While the discovery of the 109 was of mild interest I was never a huge fan per say and just tucked it away along with all of the other useless junk laying about in my head.

 

I think the PTs didn't switch to the MK13 until sometime after the loss of the 109, but I would not swear to that. Some of them may have never switched, I don't know. I never followed the PT boats that closely.

[Egilman]

Thanks brother...

 

And yeah I know the feelin' I've got so much useless junk floating around in my brain from researching subjects that strike my fancy from time to time that it all gets jumbled at times....

 

It was mid '43 when they started switching to Mark 13's on roll off racks ....

 

As an aside, Kennedy, after the rescue and short medical leave was given command of PT-59, a 77' Elco that had been modified with no torpedoes, two 40mm's and four more twin .50's They were known as gun boats intended to handle heavier armored/armed shallow draft japanese barges they were beginning to encounter... His first action with this boat was the rescue of 50-60 marines from a swamped landing craft that was under heavy shore fire.... Reports say they made excellent use of those 40mm's silencing enemy shore batteries.......

 

Getting sunk wasn't the only fame Kennedy was famous for, such just wasn't published cause Kennedy wouldn't allow it.... He thought the publicity over PT-109 was enough....

[Old Collingwood]

What a great build Denis  - I have brought my chair  and a powerful set of bins  so I can watch from over here,    I really wanted a UK RN  similar MTB    as  kid, saw  one of the large  wood builds that could be  set up for R/C  fell in love with it  but my dad  said  "No way look at the price"   so we ended up with a similar hulled kit of a cabin cruiser   Huntsman I think,    we........."Erm"     my dad built that  and I watched.

 

OC.

[Kevin]

i have brought 3 chairs, a wagon full of popcorn and cloudy lemonade for this one Dennis, can me doggie come a watch as well, he is sick of the lockdown restrictions as much as everyone else

[Old Collingwood]

7 hours ago, Kevin said:

i have brought 3 chairs, a wagon full of popcorn and cloudy lemonade for this one Dennis, can me doggie come a watch as well, he is sick of the lockdown restrictions as much as everyone else

Hiya buddy,  I  have a garden swing   - good way to watch the build.

 

OC.

[popeye the sailor]

well.........thank you all for joining in.     our chat was very productive Lou......I had done a previous look,  but was unaware of the other types of PT boats out there.  I delve a bit deeper to get more ideas.  for now though,  I'm interested in assembling the basics......my usual direction deviated from there.

    there is more......the rest of the hull........I assembled the Elco structures {with more to do}........and began to assemble the armament [ not completely happy with the supplied stuff.   what I was going to get into after assembling the hull.  was that I began to look into the rudder and prop.......but to my confusion,  there were no parts for these aspects.   looking at the box cleared it up........you have to order this stuff separate.  I ordered the running hardware kit.......that was a bit of a let down.........it only supplies a single prop assembly........with a two blade prop to boot!  so before I get too far into closing up the deck,  I will have to do some searching for more correct parts.

 

the PT boat had three screws and rudders.....I probably can get away with two.  .......might cause some to shrug,  but won't look too ridiculous  

 

thanks for the picture lou........yea,  that's kind of a herringbone design in planking.  I would have thought that the hull be sheeted with plywood panels, but perhaps that method of planking adds more strength to the hull.  knowing that the PT boat  was heavily modified in the field to suit the needs,  is a good thing........I will have card blanc in how I fit her out  { I will be at the mercy of the budget director,  as to how far}.

 

armament changed and varied greatly Egilman.......the early boats had the torpedoes,  and some did fit the roll offs later on.  I did notice that some utilized light rocket launchers,  depth charges and racks,  as well as mortars.   I read where one ship was fitted with machine guns from a P 38!  I've always spoke of field modification........these guys were the Jacks of all trades   

 

where the log is at this time,   is mid Nov.........there are ten sessions to go.......it continues  

[popeye the sailor]

in the beginning,  I was only going to pick at it.........but the more I worked on the hull,  the more I got into it { I guess the immersion in sawdust got the best of me}.  this session,  the apex was sanded along the keel.......here's a fairly good picture.....

 

from here,  basically was only sanding.......between the keel and the chine stringer.   the angles have to allow the sheeting to lay flat,  with the most contact,  much like faring.

edges and lines more refined........the shape and feel is good.  as much as I'd like to cover these two planes with whole sheeting,  I feared that they would not behave well.  so,  I broke it up in smaller sections.

 

the section joints are flush........I can hardly feel them.   it continues........

[popeye the sailor]

the next sections only cover two more bulkheads,  keeping the joints on the bulkhead { I paid more attention to that}.  the curvature here is a bit more pronounce.

 

after cutting the starboard side {I turned the board around},  another was cut for the port side.

 

 

I didn't leave as much excess either.   I using the strips of cast off material,  to suck the sheeting onto the stringer,  to keep the curvature.  I'll let this dry.

[popeye the sailor]

with the starboard sheet dry,  the keel was prepped and the port side was laid down.

 

any tiny gaps were filled with glue and sanded over to mix in sawdust.

oh joy............more sanding 

 

 

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

....now to finish the hull sheeting.  

 

you can see how jagged the bulkheads are.........die cutting was not kind.   doing the last sections will allow me to take advantage of the center stringer and the bow tip.......no lapstraking here Egilman   

[Egilman]

 

1 hour ago, popeye the sailor said:

armament changed and varied greatly Egilman.......the early boats had the torpedoes,  and some did fit the roll offs later on.  I did notice that some utilized light rocket launchers,  depth charges and racks,  as well as mortars.   I read where one ship was fitted with machine guns from a P 38!  I've always spoke of field modification........these guys were the Jacks of all trades 

There was a reason they were nicknamed devilboats by the Japanese...... They never knew what they were going to get when one came cruising by..... And the crews were typical warriors......

 

As an aside, the hulls weren't made of plywood as we understand plywood, they were made of mahogany strips, bias laid, with heavy canvas in between the inner and outer layer... secured on the inside with copper screws and outside by bronze screws, thousands of them.... Very Very light, yet very strong and easily repairable in the field without specialized tools..... A very unique design.....

 

Beautiful work my friend....

[popeye the sailor]

ohhhhhh.......I gotta get outside and shovel snow    the admiral is going out to clear a small area for Gibbs { I already took him out this morning}.  we've gotten quite a bit so far........definitely the boon on this one!  no estimate on the amount yet,  but we're getting about 2 inches an hour.......started before 11:00 last night,  and has been raging since    should end by the evening.

 

...but here it goes........

 

 

 

no pictures of the port side.........I know.......too much repetition here.  all said and done,  this is what I have to clean up.

 

 

there is a small crack on the port side.....that was coated with glue and later sanded over.  after sanding,  you see what looks like a crack along the chine line........yes,  that will haunt me.

[popeye the sailor]

they referred to it as plywood.......some did not specify.  yes....mahogany was used,  but out in the field,  they used what they could get.

 

one last before I go outside to brave the storm.........it's N.H.  what can I say........

 

I did some more sanding,  but it was futile......the panel was pulsing in and out and would do nothing more,  than to become too thin,  causing a redo.  I decided to remove it from the board.

 

the hull is 33 inches long.....the admiral saw it........the look on her face     I need to frame the deck,  but it can wait.  I need to figure out how to get some glue under the chine stringer at the bow.  not much room to work with.....

as I pondered this feat,  I tinkered with the structures.......first,  the helm area.

the part next to it,  is the motor carriage........deciding whether or not to install it.

the sides of the helm structure getting frame work cemented to them.  I'll be back....wish me luck      awww heck.......it'll be FUN!!!!!!  

[Egilman]

17 minutes ago, popeye the sailor said:

one last before I go outside to brave the storm.........it's N.H.  what can I say........

Oh that's one thing I DO NOT MISS living in New England....  Shoveling snow, shovel it one day, wake up the next morning and it doesn't look like you did anything...... four feet of snow in a couple hours....

 

You can keep it my friend... Enjoy....

 

One other thing, BE SAFE..... Don't let the snowplows bury you.... (happened several times a season in CT)

Edited December 17, 2020 by Egilman