what wood for a first scratch built project

[Anthony Hearne]

technically not my first project but i am going to try my first full ship, the Hayling Hoy< i am just about to finish a blandford cross section that i used mostly cherry for , that worked out well ,i was wondering if i should stick with the cherry or try something else .

i thought about boxwood but cant seem to find it anywhere same with pear, what are your thoughts on this and if you do have a suggestion , where can i get it from?

thanks 

Anthony

[barkeater]

You don't indicate single or double planked. If double I use boxwood for first planking and then do the hull in walnut. Cherry would work as well. Boxwood strips of various widths and thicknesses are widely available which is why I don't rip my own. Same with walnut and cherry although I do rip these unless I need a lot of them in which case ordering is easier. You can also use Tanganyika for a first layer.  Just looked at Model Expo and they have both boxwood and Tanganyika to get you started. Other sources will have as well.

[Anthony Hearne]

its a fully framed pof model , i need wood other than strips , i will check model expo

[Roger Pellett]

You should use a tight grained hardwood that will withstand shaping and sanding while still maintaining a crisp edge.  Assuming that you are not using Castillo, aka boxwood, and want to limit yourself to readily available commercial materials, a good, straight grained maple would be a good choice.

 

Basswood, also readily available is a poor choice; too soft and fuzzy.

 

All of this depends on you having woodworking equipment to rip wood into needed sizes.

 

I believe that Syren still sells Castillo in sheets.  Check with them.

[Mike Y]

It’s mostly pear, castello boxwood and cherry, you will find plenty of older topics about pros and cons of all these woods. Cherry is the cheapest, pear in between, castello box is the most expensive of them all. There are a dozen of other woods, but they are even harder to get.

there is also a dedicated topic with a list of wood suppliers, smth like ”where to buy wood”.

One thing for sure - you would not want to go back to ”kit wood” after using that stuff

[Anthony Hearne]

thank you , i found some pear that i may try and if not cherry as a backup.

i have a byrnes table saw and thickness sander so i can rip small sizes of wood , actually i have a cheap full size table saw so i can probably rip larger pieces in to smaller chunks for the other equipment.

[Anthony Hearne]

just checked the syren website and they have yellow cedar , is that ok to try ?

[mtaylor]

20 minutes ago, Anthony Hearne said:

just checked the syren website and they have yellow cedar , is that ok to try ?

Yellow cedar isn't a bad wood.  It is on the "soft" side. You might place a small order and do some testing for yourself to see if it meet your needs.

[Jaager]

5 hours ago, Anthony Hearne said:

ts a fully framed pof model , i need wood other than strips , i will check model expo

That is not an economical choice.

POF in scales 1:72 or larger will require stock of species that are almost never available precut.  The degree of waste is relatively high and thus expensive. The required thicknesses are often several or many different.  If you are doing it Hahn style - gluing up the frame stock, fixing the frame pattern to that and cutting a complete frame from that, the waste will exceed the fraction actually used.   The practical way is to be your own mill.

A quick search of your area found this example  Wood-Chip Marine Lumber & Supplies  They advertise three appropriate species  Black Cherry  4/4 and 8/4  Hard Maple  4/4 and 8/4 and for hidden or painted parts Yellow Poplar 4/4 and 8/4.   This is rough cut, so the yield is higher than finish planed.  You will need a Byrnes Thickness Sander (or equivalent). 

Getting from rough to something that the sander can use requires a saw.  A 14" bandsaw is much much better, safer and more efficient than a tablesaw -

If you do not have a big boy bandsaw, look for a cabinet shop, trade school, or local wood worker that has one and work a deal.  If it is a civilian, bring your own blades of the required size.  Lenox Diemaster 2 bimetal  1/2" 3 TPI are the sweet spot for blade life and quality of cut surface.

If you are doing miniature scales,  unless you luck into an affordable supply of Castillo or Pear,  you probably have to harvest your own stock.  Fortunately you are in citrus country.  Orange and probably Lemon should work well as also should Loquot.   

Edited December 28, 2020 by Jaager

[Mike Y]

Jaager, may I respectfully disagree about the need to mill your own wood? It's very nice to have your own bandsaw, and it's a good skill to have - but if you do not have the space or desire - it's not so expensive to just buy milled wood. I'm building 1:48 scale with Hahn method and the cost of swiss pear for framing blanks (where more than a half goes to waste) was 150 EUR, and I've ordered plenty of extra pieces just in case. And I was told this is not the cheapest supplier (though I am very loyal to them due to their quality).

It's not peanuts, but definitely not too expensive. You don't _need_ to invest in all the machines to mill your own lumber, or find somebody with them. Ordering sheets and wide strips of pre-milled wood would be just fine. Especially since you can spread the purchase over many years while building. 

 

I am building POF in the apartment with no workshop, and just want to say it's definitely possible with a limited set of miniature tooling. Please never drop that idea just because you do not have a space for a large bandsaw  

 

Of course a 74 gun in 1:24 scale would be a whole different story..

[barkeater]

If you want sheets try Rockler. Easier to do hulls where you use a lot of  wood strips by buying strips on line imo.

[Chuck Seiler]

7 hours ago, barkeater said:

If double I use boxwood for first planking and then do the hull in walnut. Cherry would work as well. Boxwood strips of various widths and thicknesses are widely available which is why I don't rip my own.

I think you mean basswood.  Boxwood is not widely available nor would you want to use it as the first layer of planking under walnut...or anything.

[barkeater]

18 minutes ago, Chuck Seiler said:

I think you mean basswood.  Boxwood is not widely available nor would you want to use it as the first layer of planking under walnut...or anything.

oops. my bad

[Jaager]

44 minutes ago, Mike Y said:

Jaager, may I respectfully disagree about the need to mill your own wood?

Mike, 

 

I have no problem at all with you disagreeing about this. 

You are offering an alternative to becoming a solo sawmill for Europe.   I have the hope that by waving the home sawmill red flag,  a similar alternative for North America will make an appearance and refute me. This is an often asked question, here.  I do not recall reading an easy answer to it.  I am expressing what I feel is a realistic view of what is involved with scratch POF - at least here in North America.  I totally support the ambition for scratch POF.  I wish the that the barrier into it was a low one.  I find the wiederholen Sie das , (or singing Kathlene over the ship's intercom) aspect of kits to be ....wearing.  

 

The whole solo sawmill option is really a distraction from our primary goal.   The advantages are an increase in the number of species of wood that can be used and that after several hulls, the investment in tools is recovered -  as long as you leave your man hours expended out of the equation. It also offers some comfort to those of us who are driven to be as self sufficient as is possible.  But, it is impossible to be compensated at an hourly rate that is commensurate with that for the necessary skill level to do this.  Including that factor would probably keep any recouping of expenditure impossible.  But, since the alternative use of that time would not likely be a money making activity, it probably should be excluded.

 

You have access to one of the first line species and in a form that is readily usable.  From some build logs  it seems that Pear is not difficult to source in Europe.  I trust that you appreciate your good fortune with that.  And also value those who do the work to mill it for you.  In North America, it is fast becoming a situation where it is rare to source any milled stock other than the totally awful Balsa or the merely terrible Basswood.  Its cousin Linden/Lime is about 100% better, but that is not really available here.  Pear in any form is difficult to find and the price is prohibitive.  

[Roger Pellett]

Many years ago there was a company named AMT that advertised low priced power woodworking tools in Popular Mechanics Magazine.  I don’t remember  prices but they low enough that someone just beginning a career and living in their first purchased home with a mortgage could buy them without feeling guilty.  I bought an eight inch table saw.

 

Starting with rough cut pear harvested locally and Howard Chapelle drawings I used this saw to build a Hahn Method POF model of the New York Pilot Boat Express ex Anna Maria.  At that time I did not have access to a thickness sander, or a miniature table saw, Byrnes or otherwise.

 

My my point is that even a full size El Cheapo table saw fitted with the right blades will work.  In my case, I was able to start with rough cut lumber.  Once I had ripped it into rectangular billets, I switched to hollow ground blades to cut strips.  Starting with round logs, without a bandsaw splitting with a wedge works.  If you live in a cold climate there is often someone that has a powered firewood splitter.

 

Anthony,

If I lived where you do, I’d start visiting orange groves to see if they might let me take logs from trees that they are getting rid of.  I understand that citrus lumber is excellent for our purpose.

 

Roger

[Anthony Hearne]

i do have a band saw , i don't thibk its 14 inch , possibly 8 but still good enough to saw logs ,i thik searching around for logs is an excellent idea and one that didn't cross my mind , this hobby is really opening up yo me , thank you gentlemen

[allanyed]

Anthony, there are sources for Castello (not a true boxwood, but fantastic wood for nearly any parts of a POF)   Gilmer Woods seems to only have one small piece in stock but Rare Woods USA has Castello box, African boxwood and Pau Marfim which was a go to species in years past.  None of them are cheap, but fantastic wood to work with.  Pear is closer grained than cherry and will hold up well for framing and planking but it will be red which I like, but not everyone does.   For deck planking and ships' boats, and and few other things like mast hoops, I love holly as long as it was harvested and kiln dried properly to keep out the green mold streaks.  I have used holly from Gilmer and was quite happy.  I assume Rare Woods would be as good.  If you are using the book by David Antscherl, I believe he tends to use holly for the white bottom planking below the wales rather than painting.     

 

Allan

 

 

 

   

 

 

[Mike Y]

11 hours ago, Jaager said:

You have access to one of the first line species and in a form that is readily usable.  From some build logs  it seems that Pear is not difficult to source in Europe.  I trust that you appreciate your good fortune with that.  And also value those who do the work to mill it for you.  In North America, it is fast becoming a situation where it is rare to source any milled stock other than the totally awful Balsa or the merely terrible Basswood.  Its cousin Linden/Lime is about 100% better, but that is not really available here.  Pear in any form is difficult to find and the price is prohibitive.  

Hm, sorry, I did not know it's so hard to get it in US  With Hobbymill and Crown closed, I thought you can buy Pear, Alaskan Cedar and Castello Boxwood sheets from Syren, but now when I check the site - it looks like it's down to Cedar only.

 

Well, maybe ordering from Europe is not such a bad idea, on a large enough order the shipping cost would not be so significant, and there are no import fees into US, right? 

[Anthony Hearne]

i ordered a piece from gilmer wood its boxwood and measures

2 5/16 x 4 7/8 x 24"

 not sure if thats enough , i think its more than i need but i wont know till i start ripping it , thank you everyone for your help and suggestions

[Roger Pellett]

You might try setting your bandsaw up to rip this.  With a limited quantity of expensive wood, your going to lose at least 1/8in on each pass through your table saw.  There are tutorials on the web on using your bandsaw for ripping.

[Jaager]

I doubt that it has any relevance for lower Florida,  but if I was back in central Kentucky, younger, and had the tools I have now, I would see about trying to accumulate a warehouse size supply of Apple billets.

 

Anthony,  That Castello is dear in both price and the vanishing prospect of obtaining more.  A thought - you might consider reserving it for making blocks and deck furniture - .

I suggest getting some Hard Maple to get practice on ripping.  It is as close as you are likely to come to being as hard as Castello,  you can get as much as you want and the cost is reasonable.  Get lots of practice using the Maple.  And who knows, you may come to like it.  Save the rare expensive wood for a magnum opus .

[SJSoane]

If you are starting with thick blanks of expensive wood (mine are 3/4" by 3" by 24"). and need to rip these down to more suitable thicknesses, I agree it is less wasteful to use a bandsaw, then use a thickness sander like the Byrnes to clean up.  Use a broad blade used for resawing, like the 1/2" Wood Mizer. I gang up feather blocks pressing against a fence for the entire width of the blank; keeps things parallel.

 

Using a table saw safely with these small pieces, in my experience, requires using a jointer to get a straight face to put against the fence, which is another source of waste. A bandsaw deals pretty well with a not perfect face against the fence, particularly if you are later thickness sanding. 

 

Mark

[Roger Pellett]

The reason that I suggested looking at a tutorial is that most consumer grade bandsaws don’t cut straight.  This requires that your fence must be adjusted to account for the blade’s tendency to wander.  These tutorials will show you how to do this.  You can also use a single point fence that allows you to adjust the lead angle as you feed the board through the saw.  

[Anthony Hearne]

all great suggestions , i did look at the band saw tutorials when i got my band saw and i think i have it setup as best as i can , i haven't used it much so some practice pieces are a great idea , i've also contacted an orange orchard near me to see if they can spare any timber but haven't had a reply yet , 

[Jaager]

There is a video about blade tracking.  I am pretty sure that the link is here - somewhere.  The old school directions had the crown of the top wheel just behind the gullet.  This guy have the teeth at the crown.  I have had no wandering problems once I started tracking his way.   Well, at least no problem until the blade started getting dull.  I found that I may as well mount a new blade at that point and save wood because the blade is due to break.

 

An unfortunate factor with benchtop bandsaws is the limited choice in available blades,  If you have a choice, fewer teeth per inch is the way to go.  With the big saws I can get 3 or 4 TPI.  Resawing stock of any significant thickness will fill fine teeth quickly when the blade is not cutting but is burnishing - mostly bad things happen.  With no choice and too fine a blade, a slooooow feed is a way to get the teeth  out of the stock before they fill completely.

 

About the Orange farmer - I have a theory that I would try were I in a position to utilize it.  There are county ag. agents.  They may know most if not all of the farmers in their zone.  They may know who and where older non productive or recently downed trees can be found.  I would try to find old Apple trees that way.  Tree service companies may also be a source.  

[reklein]

Keep in mind that one can but a lot of fancy strip wood for the cost of a band saw, sander,and planer.

[Nirvana]

I bought poplar for a solid hull freighter, since the ship will be painted I am not concerned about the miss-coloring that may come with this type of wood.