Emma C Berry by ahb26 - FINISHED - Model Shipways - 1/32

[mek]

Ingenious trick! Too bad I didn't know that yet with my EMMA.

I always enjoy seeing your build reports on this beautiful model.

Happy Holidays and a healthy New Year!

Michael

[allanyed]

AHB

The wedge idea is super, thank for sharing.

 

Personally I do not agree that using white PVA on rigging is useless as I  have never had an issue with it holding fast rigging seizings, knots  and clinches on cleats, pins, etc. over the past 45 years.  This includes one model that I built in the late '70s that has made numerous moves around the US over those years and is still in great condition.  From comments here at MSW, CA may be OK for some things, but it seems that it is not such a good idea for rigging based on their experience.  

 

I do wonder if the material of the rope being used  makes a difference though in the type adhesive that works best in these situations.  

 

Thanks again for sharing your idea on the wedge.

Allan

 

 

[ahb26]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

Personally I do not agree that using white PVA on rigging is useless as I  have never had an issue with it holding fast rigging seizings, knots  and clinches on cleats, pins, etc. over the past 45 years.  This includes one model that I built in the late '70s that has made numerous moves around the US over those years and is still in great condition.  From comments here at MSW, CA may be OK for some things, but it seems that it is not such a good idea for rigging based on their experience.  

 

I do wonder if the material of the rope being used  makes a difference though in the type adhesive that works best in these situations.

I've used white glue without problems when rigging with cotton thread, but this stuff is nylon.  I tried both white glue and PVA on it and it just didn't hold.  Even something as simple as treating the line end to stiffen and reduce fraying failed miserably with white glue.  I'd much rather have used dilute white glue but it was a no-go this time.

[ahb26]

Finished!  A few photos.

 

 

 

Lashing the anchor to the rail gave me fits, but I got it done eventually.

 

 

 

 

 

[ahb26]

A few final thoughts:

 

I decided against sails but I wanted to have all the running rigging possible without them.  The instructions recommend how to arrange the jib and staysail halliards, downhauls and sheets when sails are not used, and I followed the recommendations.  This was pretty low-stress rigging compared to my previous models - large scale and not that many lines.  I wondered about the lack of ratlines, but somewhere in the plans or instructions I found a note that a crewman would climb up the mast hoops - pretty daunting if they were wet and/or greasy.  All things considered, working on the ECB and her sister ships must not have been for the faint of heart.

 

I thoroughly enjoyed working on this kit.  It was a great learning experience in two ways.  First, I learned how the ship was built from the inside out, one step at a time - just as the original builders would have done it.  That's why I left it as open as I did, to reveal the framing to viewers who may never have seen this type of construction.  Second, it forced me to learn or refine skills at every turn.  Even with all the laser-cut parts, a lot had to be scratch built - for example, all the deck framing.  There was more metal work than I had encountered previously, and laying the deck with individual planks was a first.  There were challenges at every turn, but nothing I couldn't handle - a very satisfying experience.  The various ECB build logs helped enormously, and I thank everyone who has maintained a log and who dropped by with encouragement and suggestions.

 

I would recommend ECB to anyone who brings a moderate level of experience and would enjoy expanding their knowledge and skill set.  One thing to understand at the outset is that it's crucial to study the plans as well as reading the instructions.  Most everything you need to know is in the plans.  They are masterpieces of information delivery.

 

In terms of enjoyable hours per dollar, it would be hard to beat this ECB. 

[yvesvidal]

Excellent Summary of this great kit. I agree completely with your review of the kit and share your enthusiasm about it, even if I did not complete my ECB yet.

 

Yves

Edited December 24, 2021 by yvesvidal

[gjdale]

Congratulations on completing a fine build Andrew. You can be justifiably proud of your results. 

[ccoyle]

Congratulations, Andrew -- well done!

[mek]

Hello Andrew,
I can only agree with your summary.The plans are really excellent, but also the instructions are helpful.
My version with completely struck sails and the hull without openings is in many ways of course different to build. But I think both versions show a very nice ship model. I am always happy about it.

Michael

[ahb26]

Thanks for the kind comments.  Having your support along the way has been a great help.

 

I have already made a revision.  I saw in another log a comment about the proper color for an anchor line - light, not black/tarred.  Makes sense.  I was none too fond of the black anchor line and the way it just sat on the deck.  I assume it would be stored in a locker or something.  So, I got rid of it.  Makes that area much tidier.

 

 

Now, about those rope hanks...

 

[Sea Hoss]

Very nice job on The ECB Andrew.

[turangi]

Outstanding! A wonderful rendition.

[Dave_E]

Beautiful! What’s next?

[ahb26]

On 12/27/2021 at 9:22 PM, Dave_E said:

Beautiful! What’s next?

Thanks, Dave.  That's a good question.  I've been looking over various logs and kit offerings. Part of me would like to take on something more complex and challenging.  There are a couple of three-masted schooner offerings that I find attractive, and I also like the Kate Cory for various reasons.  But then I think - Three masts all the same!  All that rigging, all those blocks and ratlines!  Four little whaleboats!  These kits are pitched at intermediate modelers but they are all major undertakings.  On previous models - not ECB so much - I've found myself getting bogged down working my way through a frustrating patch, to the extent I have to force myself to get it done.  More than once I've asked myself, Why am I doing this?  (I suspect I'm not the only one.)  I might opt for something less overwhelming, such as the MS New Bedford Whaleboat - it involves lots of fabrication, which I enjoy - or the BlueJacket Friendship Sloop, to replace one that I built decades ago and that was subsequently lost or stolen.

 

For now, anyway, I've offered to attempt a repair on a neighbor's ship model - nothing special, something he purchased.  I also have a simple airplane kit, a P-39 Airacobra, to build in order to commemorate my father's cousin who was killed flying that plane in WW II.  I'll continue to peruse build logs and keep an eye on the sales.

[turangi]

I highly recommend the MS New Bedford Whaleboat, my first build that got me hooked. I posted about it here. 

 

I took the opposite approach, after the ECB I wanted something a bit less challenging so I built a Ukulele. It was a fun project that only took about 2-3 weeks and actually sounds musical to my tin ears.

[BobG]

Gorgeous model, Andrew. Congratulations! 

[Frank L.]

Hi anhb26. Can you comment on the elevated platform rig somebody used to erect the frames. Here is the link:

https://www.historicshipmodels.com/emma-c-berry/

[Frank L.]

Hi ahb26

I noticed an interesting rig for supporting the framework of the ECB. See link, below. What are your thoughts about it? I just got started with my ECB. I bought a piece of 1/4'' MDF today so I could cut-out a similar support/alignment board. Julian Nodars of Model Shipways / modelexpo-online suggested that I visit your link for guidance. And so, here I am! 

 

https://www.historicshipmodels.com/emma-c-berry/

[ahb26]

Hi Frank, and welcome to Model Ship World!

 

That looks like a very stable and accurate jig - only as accurate, of course, as the construction and placement of the jig.  It locks all the frames in their exact locations without all the side- and cross-bracing I used with the MS arrangement.  The builder is able to install the clamps in a very controlled and precise fashion - that's the key step in achieving a rigid frame.  Determining the exact shape of the jig's opening might be a bit tricky, but I think the plans supplied with the kit have sufficient information to make it possible.  I'll be interested to see how you make out with this approach.

 

One concern is that the jig might make it more difficult to work down around the keel.  I also don't understand why the builder glued strips of wood onto the jig extending out from each frame location - not sure what purpose these serve.  But the work looks very fine.

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

beautiful boat. Congratulations Andrew  very fine work. 

[Frank L.]

Yes!! I too was confused about the strips extending out from each frame! I was going to ask the builder, but could not find his or her name on that site. Anyway, I scanned the blueprint into my computer and used AutoCAD to trace the hull profile with a reasonably  smooth & sharp polyline. The tracing will be printed and used as a template to cut-out the elevated jig.

I also saw a builder's comment in your log about using a shim to prevent the sternpost from making contact with the kit's  keel support jig's back end. Well, with my sternpost touching the nib/lug/boss of the jig, I had sketched all the frame lines across  my 3/4'' pine building board, up the jig and onto the keel before I read that. It would be a hassle to erase all that work and re-pencil it in. Do you know the reason for shimming the keel forward? If it was so important, the kit's instructions should have mentioned it. Although, If I decide to go with the elevated support idea, maybe my pencil lines are unnecessary.

 

[niwotwill]

Reading about this elevated support method to keep the frames true leaves me with wondering if this is not a version of Harold Hahns method of securing the frame alignment. Just wondering.

Regards

[ahb26]

16 hours ago, Frank L. said:

Yes!! I too was confused about the strips extending out from each frame! I was going to ask the builder, but could not find his or her name on that site. Anyway, I scanned the blueprint into my computer and used AutoCAD to trace the hull profile with a reasonably  smooth & sharp polyline. The tracing will be printed and used as a template to cut-out the elevated jig.

There is an email address on the builder's site - historicshipmodels@gmail.com - and his name is Greg Davis (in the About tab).

 

I was thinking some more about this.  I think the strips are there to allow more precise placement of the frames.  The opening in the elevated jig could be slightly oversize, with the strips overhanging the edge to the exact offset from the centerline required for each frame.  You could tack the frame to the strip with easy-to-break white glue to keep the frame in place. 

 

I'm not clear from your description how you developed the shape of the hull profile.  If you scanned the "deck plan" in the bottom half of plans sheet 2, you will get incorrect results because your jig is not at deck level.  What I think you need to do is use the "hull planking layout" in the upper right corner of sheet 2.  The process would go something like this:

1. Find the frame whose top (at the bottom of the covering board) is the smallest distance from the baseline (probably 12 or 13).  Measure that dimension.
2. Subtract enough from this dimension to allow for the installation of the clamps, plus a little more for comfort.  The resulting dimension will be the distance of the top surface of your jig from the baseline (lowest point of the keel).  On the planking layout diagram, draw a horizontal line at this distance from the baseline.  Think of this line as representing a horizontal slice through the ship's framework.
3. For each frame, measure the distance from the hull centerline to the intersection of the frame with that horizontal line.
4. Now, when you set up the jig, use the dimension for each frame to set the location of the locating strips (port and starboard) for that frame.  Let's say your jig is 8" wide and symmetrical.  If a given frame's dimension is, say, 2-1/4", you can measure in from the edge of the jig 1-3/4" to set that strip.
5. When you set up the jig, be sure to add the height of the baseline above the building board (about 1/2") to the dimension you found in step 2.

With regard to shimming the keel forward - I vaguely recall the issue and I think the builder was concerned that, with the keel all the way back, the stem didn't go all the way into the building jig.  He wanted to eliminate the gap.  More importantly, if the keel moved in the jig and you didn't notice, you could get inconsistencies.  The lines on the building board are probably not needed with the elevated jig, but the lines on the keel must align correctly with the lines on the elevated jig, so it's important to make sure the keel can't move.  By the way, that little nib will break off eventually.  I glued in a separate piece, a bit longer than the original.

Edited February 12, 2022 by ahb26
Clarity

[Frank L.]

I also spotted that  address and sent them this note:

"Is it recommended that an elevated platform with a cutout for the hull framing be used, as you have done? What is the reason for the timbers laying flat on said platform? Is it because you perhaps slightly overcut the opening and are maneuvering  the timbers so their ends are precisely in the proper location for the frames to temporarily abut to? Does the platform obstruct your ability to work on the keel area? Is this a scratch-built or kit POF model?"

And, just now, I read your reply to my question. It seems as though we agree on the purpose of the strips. And I agree with you that the platform should be at deck level and i need to revise my cut-out template based on the frame profiles, as you have described.

With the nib stuff, I am leaving the keel tight to it, and will shim the prow against the jig to prevent forward slippage.

By the way, in my opinion, it seems risky  to have a wooden live well, right in the middle of a vessel. So many possible points of leakage. No decent bilge pumps back then - I presume.

 

 

[ahb26]

4 hours ago, Frank L. said:

And, just now, I read your reply to my question. It seems as though we agree on the purpose of the strips. And I agree with you that the platform should be at deck level and i need to revise my cut-out template based on the frame profiles, as you have described.

With the nib stuff, I am leaving the keel tight to it, and will shim the prow against the jig to prevent forward slippage.

By the way, in my opinion, it seems risky  to have a wooden live well, right in the middle of a vessel. So many possible points of leakage. No decent bilge pumps back then - I presume.

Just to be completely clear - the surface of the platform shouldn't be at deck level but somewhat below top of the lowest frame, to allow for installation of the clamps.  The top-right photo in the historicshipmodels site shows this operation, and the photo two below it shows the clamps installed.  The clamps are supposed to be glued to the frames a specific distance below the tops of the frames (it's in the instructions somewhere I think) such that when the beams rest on the clamps, their ends are at the same level as the tops of the adjacent frames.  By the way, that's another benefit of the platform vs. the gantry setup provided in the kit - much easier to make sure the tops of the frames are at the correct level.

 

I agree that the live well seems a bit sketchy - not sure I would want to be asleep in the cabin in a heavy sea with that thing sloshing away next to me!  Fortunately, the wells we build into the models don't have to be watertight.  And how do you get the fish out of all the odd corners and pockets?

[Greg Davis]

First, I would like to commend Andrew on his fine rendition of Emma C. Berry! Andrew, I have visited your forum many times over the past year to view your progress and see how you have navigated the build. 

 

I would like to offer clarification on the jig I made use of. I have had this kit on my shelf for years and had always worried about working with the fragile frames that form the hull. Eventually I built up the courage to put this kit together. Having studied how POF models are scratch-built, I felt that a commonly used jig could be developed to up my chances of successfully building Emma. Since the jig wasn't my end goal I did not make the perfect one and instead went for more of an ad hoc solution. 

 

Marking the centerline and the perpendicular location of each frame was done precisely on both the jig and the building board. The holes for the bolts were drilled before this was done so that the alignment would be consistent. The kit plans were used to make a rough outline for the jig and was cut out. Slots for the frames were cut oversize as all of you have noticed. The jig was set at a convenient height so it would intersect with all of the frames.

 

After gluing the pairs of pieces to make each full frame together, I did attach a strip across the top to keep proper width. The centerline was also noted on the top of this strip. When each frame was glued to the keel I was able to center the frame using a thread going fore-aft along the center line - and as noted in an above post, by measuring the height of each side of the frame above the jig. Strips of wood were then glued to the frame to restrict the frames from expanding outward and to maintain their proper position. 

 

Once the full frames were in place, I was able to remove all of the temporary strips that had been attached prior to the erection of the frames. The jig held the frames nicely so that I could fair the inside of the frames near the keelson location. The keelson was added as well as the half-frames and then the rest of the interior fairing was done. 

 

Again as noted above, the jig made clamp installation straightforward with little worry about damaging a frame. 

 

I will say that if I were to start over, I would install most (or all) of the ceiling before installing any deck beams etc. I think it may have been better to put in the well bedlogs and did some work on the cabin and platforms before installing the ceiling. Then I would put in the wet well and so on. I guess you learn something every time.

 

 So thanks to all of you for taking the time look at my work; and Andrew - congratulations again!

 

 

 

[Frank L.]

[Frank L.]

On 1/29/2021 at 8:53 AM, ahb26 said:

stern post should be given a concave shape

I used a 10'' portable table saw to create a V-groove part way thru the edge. I could not run the cut all the way thru due to the tail of the piece protruding into the path. I finished with a small dowel wrapped with sandpaper.

[Frank L.]

Hi Andrew. I want to avoid a horn timber do-over. So I generated a graphic representation. Take a look and tell me if you agree with my assessment. The instruction book mentions 'maintaining alignment'. But they do not make it clear what exactly they mean.

EMMA C. BERRY WATERTITE RUDDDER STOCK BOX.pdf

Edited February 20, 2022 by Frank L.
wanted to delete redundant images

[ahb26]

Hi Frank, sorry for the delay in responding.  The fifth photo down in post 6 of this thread gives the best look at how I ended up doing the horn timber (also first photo of post 12 and the last one in post 17).  Referring to your graphic, the "two aft edges" of the horn timber side units should be flush with the aft edge of the center unit - these three together form the mounting pad for the transom.  That means you need to raise the side units, which in turn means that the lower edges of the side units will no longer be flush with the lower edge of the center unit.  This forms a rabbet - the planks will run on either side of the lower edge of the center unit (see second photo of post 12).  I agree that the instructions are confusing - it took me a long time and scrutiny of other logs to figure this out.