Frieze painting techniques

[allanyed]

A couple posts were written  regarding painting frieze work on paper versus directly on the model on Siggi's fantastic Tiger 1747 build log.   Posting the subject here rather than bog down his log. 

 

I have painted mainly directly on the model at times, but  on paper at times as well.  Recently painted small fleur de lis directly on the model and was not happy at all so did them again on paper.  Based on anyone's experience or knowledge on this, what is the best paper to use?  I presume thinner is better so it is not as noticeable when applied to the model.  Also, concerns about what will hold acrylic artist paint best without degrading quickly.   I have at least one example where painting on   bonded paper then finished with a poly coat has shown no signs of degradation for just over 15 years so far.  The reason I originally chose bonded paper was that it is commonly used in art work involving pen and ink and/or ink markers due to its strength as it is made of at least some rag fiber.   A former art teacher gave me that advice but I am open to other proven ideas.

 

Also, in place of India Ink or paint  for black strakes, does anyone have any plus or minus experience/comments on using permanent marker pens to stain the strake before it is set on the hull?    

Edited April 27, 2021 by allanyed

[druxey]

Well, Allan, I've painted both directly on and off models. The latter is much easier, particularly in places like lower counters. I've also used bond paper. It should not deteriorate, as it is sealed on both sides once glued to the model. I don't know of any really thin, smooth-surfaced 100% rag paper. Perhaps someone else does.

 

For wales, etc, I've used black leather dye. It's hard to get a perfectly even surface if the planks are pre-dyed then added to the model. I've used the strategy of applying and smoothing the wales before any other planking, so if a little dye should go over the edge it doesn't ruin adjacent planking. Dye is very good at seeping or wicking under any masking tape!

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

plus or minus experience/comments on using permanent marker pens

 I know there is a lot of variety with these pens, but my experiments with the common black " Sharpie " pens is that the results have a bluish/purplish sheen, and nothing I would be happy with as a final finish..

[davyboy]

Hi Allan,I used Eddings 3000 black permanent marker on the wales of my current build. It is waterproof,doesn't fade and doesn't rub off when dry. The wales have been on the hull about 1 year,despite much handling of the model they look as good as when first dyed.

 

Dave.

[thibaultron]

I tried to use sharpies to darken the edge of the planks for my canon diorama, wrong! The day after I glued the planks down with Elmers, the sharpie ink had run all over the place! I guess long term exposure to water made the ink, not so permanent.

[SJSoane]

On 4/27/2021 at 4:03 AM, allanyed said:

A couple posts were written  regarding painting frieze work on paper versus directly on the model on Siggi's fantastic Tiger 1747 build log.   Posting the subject here rather than bog down his log. 

 

I have painted mainly directly on the model at times, but  on paper at times as well.  Recently painted small fleur de lis directly on the model and was not happy at all so did them again on paper.  Based on anyone's experience or knowledge on this, what is the best paper to use?  I presume thinner is better so it is not as noticeable when applied to the model.  Also, concerns about what will hold acrylic artist paint best without degrading quickly.   I have at least one example where painting on   bonded paper then finished with a poly coat has shown no signs of degradation for just over 15 years so far.  The reason I originally chose bonded paper was that it is commonly used in art work involving pen and ink and/or ink markers due to its strength as it is made of at least some rag fiber.   A former art teacher gave me that advice but I am open to other proven ideas.

 

Also, in place of India Ink or paint  for black strakes, does anyone have any plus or minus experience/comments on using permanent marker pens to stain the strake before it is set on the hull?    

 

To add to Allan's question, would it make sense to paste the paper frieze onto the hull BEFORE attaching the mouldings above and below, so there can be a slight overlap of the moulding over the paper, keeping a clean line between the two?

 

Mark

 

[Chuck]

For me....the best way to go is to paint and print.   

 

Paint and prepare the frieze off the model on any paper.  Then scan it and make adjustments in photoshop.  If a pattern repeats this is very easy to cut and paste.  Inkjet printing inks have gotten very sophisticated.  But all claims aside only time will tell.  But many of the larger and more advanced photo printing services claim to UV protecting dyes they use to print their photos and do so on archival paper.   You can recreate this in your home but its far cheaper to just upload your frieze and have these services peint them on archival paper.  

 

In addition,  for a second layer of protection, spray the print with UV protective fixative.  Many are now made specifically for photo prints to prevent fading.

 

Lastly....when you case up your model,  use UV protective glass.  With these three layers of protection, some photographers claim your prints will last 100 years and remain vibrant like the day they were first printed.

 

And finally,   dont display your model in full sun or in front of a window.   

 

Using paper off the model and printing is great but their is no substitute for seeing the brush work from the original painting on a model if done neatly.   Therefore after spraying with a fixative, one can actually repaint some areas of the printout to give the feel of an original painting.  Sort of like a paint by numbers after printing it.   You have to do the work twice but painting over a printout that is scaled and printed to fit perfectly makes life a lot easier.....on archival paper.

 

 

and printed and glued on the model....

 

 

The contemporary model it was inspired by...

 

 

 

[allanyed]

Thanks Chuck.  A quick search came up with the following supplier who offers samples of different papers to try for $2.  

https://www.archivalmethods.com/category/paper-tissue.  I am going to give these a try to see which is/are best for this kind of application.

Fixatives with UV protection were easy to find on Amazon and at Michaels which is always a fun place to visit when I need paints or other goodies.

Thanks again!

 

 

[dvm27]

I like your version better Chuck. The POF side may be more technically challenging but is not as aesthetically pleasing to the eye as your interpretation.

[wefalck]

Years ago, when I was contempleting to use printed plank layouts on a small-scale model, I did some research on archival ink-jet and laser print-outs. There was one Web-site, where they had investigated the various models of printers and inks available for them in controlled, accelerated ageing tests. I don't have the site on my finger tips and the results, being some 15 years old are certainly outdated, but an Internet search will probably turn up some more recent information.

 

One strategy I have been contemplating, but not actually used yet, was to print the outlines of the artwork onto a decal film (if you have a colour laser-printer you can also put colour on, of course), complete the artwork in brush and acrylics, and then transfer the decal onto the model. If you don't like it, only the decal film and your time is wasted and you don't have to scrape off the paint from the model.

 

If you want to paint directly on the model, make yourself an arm- or wrist-rest, along the lines of those porcelain-painters use and arrange for the area of the model to be painted on to be at a comfortable angle.

 

When painting wales etc. I would do this only, once the wood of the wale itself and the surrounding strakes has been sealed in a way compatible with the paint you are going to use. In this way no ink/paint can infiltrate into unwanted areas. My choice would be a nitrocellulose-based sanding sealer and acrylics. I would use acrylics readily diluted for airbrushing, as they can be worked like inks, but contain pigments of course. If the wales run reasonably clean, one could also mask the off and spray-paint them. I still would give them a final wash with the brush, as this somehow gives an ever so slight surface texture that looks more appropriate than a spray-painted one.

 

 

[TBlack]

All you guys are much more artistic than I am. Therefore, my approach is to make a huge copy (8.5X11) of the object (in my case usually a shield).

Paint that. Then go to the copier and reduce to the size needed. Next make a copy of the reduced shield  onto decal paper. 

Tom

[SJSoane]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

Thanks Chuck.  A quick search came up with the following supplier who offers samples of different papers to try for $2.  

https://www.archivalmethods.com/category/paper-tissue.  I am going to give these a try to see which is/are best for this kind of application.

Fixatives with UV protection were easy to find on Amazon and at Michaels which is always a fun place to visit when I need paints or other goodies.

Thanks again!

 

 

 

Allan, Will you post the outcome of your experiment? I am very interested to see an archival way forward on this fascinating topic!

 

Mark

[allanyed]

Will do Mark,

May take a week or two as I am only ordering it today.   Darn freight is $12 for a $2 sampling, but they do credit it towards the next order so I guess it makes some kind of sense.  

 

[allanyed]

Mark,

 

 I bought the samples of several types of archival paper and printed and painted on each of them.  The two best results were printed rather than printed and painted or just painted.  I drew the fleur-de-lis on TurboCad with various colors then printed on each of the six different archival paper samples. 
The samples that were painted on top of the printed samples were not nearly as neat in the details even using a super small high quality brush.  Of course shaky old hands may have had a part in that.

 

The thinnest paper samples would have been good when gluing to the wood, but the printing was not nearly as crisp.  I copied in place to double up on the color saturation but saw no difference on any of the samples.   Some of the paper samples were pH neutral, and these were very thin but the color was not as crisp.  Painting on these was no problem, but for these tiny pics, they did not look as good as the printed as mentioned above.  For other items I will likely paint on the thinner paper, or at least give it a try. 

 

Two best results are below showing the single layer print on the paper identified.    Each blue rectangle is 5/16" wide by 3/8" high.

[thibaultron]

You can sand the back of the paper, to make it thinner. Model Railroaders do it all the time, to create posters and signs on the side of buildings.

[Maury S]

The things we can learn from model railroaders!!!

Maury

[wefalck]

There are not shipmodelling, railway modelling, figure modelling etc. techniques, there are techniques for particular tasks that can be applied here and there, as the need arises

 

[SJSoane]

On 5/6/2021 at 2:16 PM, allanyed said:

Mark,

 

 I bought the samples of several types of archival paper and printed and painted on each of them.  The two best results were printed rather than printed and painted or just painted.  I drew the fleur-de-lis on TurboCad with various colors then printed on each of the six different archival paper samples. 
The samples that were painted on top of the printed samples were not nearly as neat in the details even using a super small high quality brush.  Of course shaky old hands may have had a part in that.

 

The thinnest paper samples would have been good when gluing to the wood, but the printing was not nearly as crisp.  I copied in place to double up on the color saturation but saw no difference on any of the samples.   Some of the paper samples were pH neutral, and these were very thin but the color was not as crisp.  Painting on these was no problem, but for these tiny pics, they did not look as good as the printed as mentioned above.  For other items I will likely paint on the thinner paper, or at least give it a try. 

 

Two best results are below showing the single layer print on the paper identified.    Each blue rectangle is 5/16" wide by 3/8" high.

 

Hi Allan,

 

Sorry for the delay; just got back from a trip to Denver for a wedding...

 

So it sounds like printing on the permalite 20 pound bond was the best bet. I am guessing you did not stretch it like watercolor paper in the first place,  since you were printing on an ink jet printer; did the paper wrinkle when you glued it onto the wood? What kind of glue did you use?

 

I am also impressed with your TurboCad skills in drawing forms like this!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

 

[bartley]

On 4/28/2021 at 11:57 PM, Chuck said:

 

 Therefore after spraying with a fixative, one can actually repaint some areas of the printout to give the feel of an original painting.  Sort of like a paint by numbers after printing it.   You have to do the work twice but painting over a printout that is scaled and printed to fit perfectly makes life a lot easier.....on archival paper

 

Another way to give a kind of 3D feel is to paint over the letters or part of them with acrylic gel medium which is available from art stores.  It is transparent but builds up the surface.

 

John