How do I cut 0.3mm copper sheet for hull plating tiles?

[Eswee]

I am new to plating the hull. I bought a 0.3mm copper sheet that I have to cut the tiles for the hull. What will be the easiest and best way to do it. I would probably have to make 500 tiles.

[allanyed]

Welcome to MSW Eswee

Hope you will post a little introduction about yourself in the new member forum.

Did you do a search on the various build logs?  There are quite a few posts on various methods of making the plates, rivet replication and installing them.

Cheers

Allan

[Gregory]

What scale?  .3mm Sounds kind of thick?

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  If it is annealed copper, perhaps a sturdy (office type - or artist's) paper cutter might work.  I mean the kind with a square wooden base with grid lines, a backstop with rule and a long slightly curved blade on the right side with a grip on the end for leverage.  You'd have to fashion a hard stop that would pivot up while the blade is up so the sheet would be moved out consistently.  Then with the stop folded down (and the weight of the left hand - gloved to limit oils getting on the copper - pressing down on the sheet, the right hand would smartly shear off a uniform long strip.  The individual plates would later have to be cit off from the strips with hand shears.

 

  That's just one idea, but I've seen good results with builders using copper tape (much easier) and using a spoked wheel (available in hobby shops) to emboss 'rivets'.  Others buy the plates pre-made by fitting suppliers and go right to gluing them on.

 

Johnny

[allanyed]

Gregory, good catch.  This is the equivalent of about 1/2" thick at 1:48   According to Goodwin in The Construction and Fitting of the English  Man of War, each plate was about 4 feet long by 15 inches wide and weighed 28 ounces per square foot.

 

My apologies if my math is off, it has been a while......  Copper weighs about 0.34 pounds per cubic inch so I came up with a thickness of 0.19"   At 1:48 scale this would be 0.1 mm.  At 1:64 it would be 0.07mm, and at 1:98 it would be 0.05mm thick.   0.3 mm would be right if the scale is about 1:16 which would be a model in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 feet long which would be awesome. 

 

Allan

 

[Jaager]

22 minutes ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

and using a spoked wheel (available in hobby shops) to emboss 'rivets'.

The copper plates were not riveted.  The copper nails were hammered near flush.  They were all but invisible at a distance corresponding to a model viewing distance.

There were way more of them than a ponce wheel produces.  Model versions of copper sheathing with a raised or embossed addition mostly tends to give a hull a bad case of small pox.

 

I am still thinking that 100% rag bond paper, paint with real copper, using PVA to attach may be an effective alternative,  in which case, a guillotine type paper cutter would be a real help.  It may even work to slice individual plates from a strip.  The paper could be painted while still at the 8.5 x 11 stage. 

[Gregory]

I'm reminded of:

 

" Are you building a model of a ship or a miniature ship ? "

 

Taking Jaager's comments a bit further:

 

New Copper Sheathing  ( Constitution )

 

 

Nails barely visible..

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Gregory

[allanyed]

Rivets/nails in copper plates are like belaying pins, rarely to scale if they are not made in house.  Many a model with an otherwise beautifully made hull has been ruined by using copper plates with nails or pock marks from a ponce wheel that are not nearly close to scale.   The photo Gregory posted is the best explanation I have seen.  There appear to be about 60 on the long side.  Assuming it is a four foot long piece, that is one every 0.8" or so.  At a scale of 1:48 they are only 0.016 center to center.  At 1:64 they are only 0.0125 center to center, smaller than the diameter of a #80 drill bit.    

Allan

Edited May 29, 2021 by allanyed

[Bob Cleek]

5 hours ago, Jaager said:

I am still thinking that 100% rag bond paper, paint with real copper, using PVA to attach may be an effective alternative,  in which case, a guillotine type paper cutter would be a real help.  It may even work to slice individual plates from a strip.  The paper could be painted while still at the 8.5 x 11 stage. 

Yes and no. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. Such a paper cutter will cut uniform widths of copper sheet, but the shearing cut will cause the strip to curl. The copper strip then has to be straightened by putting one end of the strip in a vise and pulling hard on it from the other end with a pair of vice grips attached until the strip straightens out. 

 

That said, I've seen very, very few models with coppered bottoms which did not significantly detract from the model's appearance. 

[Gregory]

 

3 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

significantly detract from the model's appearance. 

Especially  the ones that thought it was a good idea to randomly color some of the plates by heat treating them..

 

That wasn't you, was it?😁

[Bob Cleek]

5 hours ago, Jaager said:

I am still thinking that 100% rag bond paper, paint with real copper, using PVA to attach may be an effective alternative,  in which case, a guillotine type paper cutter would be a real help.  It may even work to slice individual plates from a strip.  The paper could be painted while still at the 8.5 x 11 stage. 

No need to think any longer. I'll confirm that fact. Thin (proper scale thickness) archival bond paper glued on in "plates" of the correct size, following which the plates are shellacked to stabilize them and render the scales impervious to moisture, and then painted and weathered appropriately will do the best job of portraying a coppered bottom. The standard office/classroom paper cutter is just the ticket for getting out the plates.

[allanyed]

This is an Interesting thread Eswee got started. 

A potential problem with paper is that rag/cotton bond may be too thick to be at scale depending on the weight.   20 pound is about 0.004 inches thick, so a pretty close match for 1:48 scale for the thickness of the plates, but too thick to be at scale for 1:64 and smaller.  Also consider the thickness of the copper paint.  Typical paint layers are 3 mil (0.003), nearly the thickness of the paper.  A THIN coat of around 1mil could be the ticket but I don't know if the typical copper paints would look right if applied too thinly.    Rolls of copper sheet down to 0.002" thick can be found at places like McMaster Carr.  This is so thin it can be cut with scissors.    

Allan

 

 

[druxey]

This question made me smile. For my first 'coppered' model when i was about 16, I used  5 thou copper. As the model scale was 1:96, the coppering looked like cedar shingles! 

 

As mentioned by others, just because the actual ship used copper doesn't mean you have to use copper on a model. Very thin paper attached using a glue without water content and painted will look much better. Unless very large scale, forget the nailing pattern. Experiment on scrap before committing to the actual model.

 

To answer the original question, one way to cut thin copper is with a straight edge and sharp blade. Use a hard surface such as  a piece of plate glass to cut on. Score the metal and work the piece back and forth along the score using parallel pliers until it comes free.

[Stevinne]

I'd never thought much about coppering before, so I'm enjoying this discussion. While nails in the weathered copper are definitely hard to see, the nails in the fresh copper in this photo are easily apparent and definitely have that "ponce-wheel effect" to my eyes. I wish there was a wider view to see what it looks like from a distance, but, when fresh, the dimples in the copper make the nails stand out.  I'm interested because, at some point, I'm going to need to do something with the hull of the Harriet Lane.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Stevinne

[Chuck]

They sell pre cut small square sheets of copper like gold leaf.  Its thicker than gold leaf and is quite durable.  It sticks on any surface just like goldleaf would with the same techniques.  Easy to cut and perfect scale.  You take several sheets at a time and cut them to plate size with a scissors.   Then apply.  Its easier to cut when you hold several sheets together.   Its super cheap and you get a million sheets in a package.  This is the stuff the apply to picture frames and architectural items.   so its sturdier and thicker.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=copper+foil+sheets&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjGtM31iO_wAhUMeDABHcLpC20Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=copper++Foil&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQARgFMgQIIxAnMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAOgYIABAHEB46CAgAEAgQBxAeUJSSGVjKpBlg8boZaAFwAHgAgAGjAYgB9wSSAQM3LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=YUuyYIaACozwwbkPwtOv6AY&bih=594&biw=1293&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS907US907#imgrc=r9I6_xHdNEextM

 

 

 

 

[Keithbrad80]

I like pounce wheels. The tooth ratio of the wheel can be changed to pretty much any thing you want and they can pretty easily be made with a mill if you have one and jigs can be created to quickly replicate rivet patterns. For my flying fish I used copper strips and made a few jugs that I can slide the tape into use my pounce to quickly create several plates then cut those out and put on the model. 
 

here’s my coppering job, it’s not the best but I think it could be easily improved. 

 

and he’s the jig I made to make the riveting pattern. Different jigs could easily be made that replicate different patterns of rivets and smaller pounce wheels with a sharp tip can create really small divots very close to each other. Here’s my jig I used for this one.

 

part 1:

 

part 2:

I took my tape and slide it in the part 1 jig to make the horizontal rivets then part 2 makes the vertical rivets that separate each plate. 

 

Bradley

[Roger Pellett]

KUnfortunately, Eswee doesn’t tell us more about what he is trying to do.  If he plans to SHEATH the underwater area of a wooden ship the comments above are relevant.  On the other hand, if he is PLATING the hull of a steel hulled vessel it’s another matter.  1/2in plating is about right for the shell plating of smaller merchant ships.

 

A number of years ago, I bought a quality Guillotine type paper cutter.  I use it all the time.  It will cut .005in copper with minimal distortion.

 

I just plated the hull of my Benjamin Noble model with paper glued down with PVA Glue.  (Post above in scratch built models).  If I were to simulate copper sheathing on a wooden hull I would use paper too.  I stabilized my paper plates with shellac before gluing.

 

Roger 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Roger Pellett

[ERS Rich]

2 hours ago, Keithbrad80 said:
 

here’s my coppering job, it’s not the best but I think it could be easily improved. 

Looks first rate to me, nice work, Bradley

[Keithbrad80]

28 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

If he plans to SHEATH the underwater area of a wooden ship the comments above are relevant.

If he plans to sheath below the water line, Chucks post about the foil might work the best. 
 

Bradley

[Bob Cleek]

15 hours ago, Gregory said:

 

Especially  the ones that thought it was a good idea to randomly color some of the plates by heat treating them..

 

That wasn't you, was it?😁

Not hardly. I've seen enough copper-sheathed bottoms in real life to know what they really look like.   

Edited May 29, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Bob Cleek]

7 hours ago, allanyed said:

This is an Interesting thread Eswee got started. 

A potential problem with paper is that rag/cotton bond may be too thick to be at scale depending on the weight.   20 pound is about 0.004 inches thick, so a pretty close match for 1:48 scale for the thickness of the plates, but too thick to be at scale for 1:64 and smaller.  Also consider the thickness of the copper paint.  Typical paint layers are 3 mil (0.003), nearly the thickness of the paper.  A THIN coat of around 1mil could be the ticket but I don't know if the typical copper paints would look right if applied too thinly.    Rolls of copper sheet down to 0.002" thick can be found at places like McMaster Carr.  This is so thin it can be cut with scissors.    

Allan

 

 

The paper does indeed have to be to scale, of course. IMHO, the problem arises because folks can't let go of trying to use "real" copper on their models and trying to portray their scale copper sheathing as shiny as a new penny. Real coppered bottoms look a lot more like old copper pennies, not new ones. New copper sheet will be "new penny shiny" straight from the mill, but within weeks, if not days, in the salt air, will be developing a patina, first bright green (verdigris) and later moving to "copper brown." Once the hull hits the water, all bets are off, since the hull will rather quickly foul with marine growth. A verdigris patina will develop at the waterline where air and water mix, while below the waterline it will become copper brown covered with "bottom crud" to one degree or another.

 

Save for the time when it's actually applied, brand new shiny copper sheathing just isn't seen in real life. Folks who are impressed with "real copper plating" are drinking kit manufacturers' Kool Aid. It's just marketing hype.

[Bob Cleek]

4 hours ago, Stevinne said:

I'd never thought much about coppering before, so I'm enjoying this discussion. While nails in the weathered copper are definitely hard to see, the nails in the fresh copper in this photo are easily apparent and definitely have that "ponce-wheel effect" to my eyes. I wish there was a wider view to see what it looks like from a distance, but, when fresh, the dimples in the copper make the nails stand out.  I'm interested because, at some point, I'm going to need to do something with the hull of the Harriet Lane.

 

First off, the "ponce wheel effect" produces convex "dimples," while the picture shows concave dimples. Big difference.

 

Second, the workmen in the picture are doing a really lousy job of it. (The hardhats are a dead giveaway. They're probably government subcontractors who belong to the roofers' union, not the caulkers' union, which I don't think exists anymore, although there once was one. See footnote below.) They are driving the tacks with carpenter's hammers, which leave large dimples and creases in the copper surface. A ship's bottom should be as smooth as possible to reduce friction resistance in the water. Copper sheathing is properly fastened with a "coppering hammer," which has a convex-shaped striking face with a rounded edge that permits the tack head to be driven flush with the surface of the copper sheet while minimizing dimpling and preventing creasing the sheet itself.

 

 

 

A newly coppered yacht hull properly done. 

 

 

A  copper plate on USS Constitution photographed during restoration:

 

 

 

 

Note the absence of "rivets (sic)" on a well-portrayed copper bottom on a fine model of Cutty Sark:

 

 

Footnote: 

Caulking in the United States became a trade widely practiced by free African Americans in the mid-nineteenth century. Many caulking crews were itinerant workers who would travel from shipyard to ship yard to caulk hulls on contract as their skills were required. Racial discrimination in the workplace resulted African American caulkers buying their own shipyard, the Chesapeake Marin Railway and Dry Docking Company in 1866. This was quickly followed by the formation of the Colored Caulkers' Trade Union in 1868, one of the first African American trade unions  to be created and the precursor to the Colored National Labor Union. When the founding president of the Colored Caulkers' Trade Union became the president of the Colored National Labor Union, he was followed as president of the Colored Caulkers' Trade Union by Frederick Douglass. Famed as a leader of the American abolitionist movement, few today realize that Frederick Douglass was a ship's caulker by trade and trade unionist, as well.  See:  https://aflcio.org/2021/2/11/pathway-progress-baltimore-caulkers-take-charge-their-own-future and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Myers

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[druxey]

Yes, those plates are poorly nailed with large dimples - nay, large dents!

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

   Old Johnny is learning a lot from this thread ... there seem to be many ways to apply genuine copper, (and I confess that I've never done it myself) but I must agree that soon after a ship is in the water that 'shiny penny' effect will go away.  The appearance in photos of copper on ships that have been in the water appears to me to be a brown base (like many patinated surfaces put on cast bronze sculptures ... or an old penny) with a verdigris (greenish) 'wash' overall.  

 

  The Revell 1:96 Cutty I built as a teen came with the bottom pre-painted a coppery color ... so I can't say now if there was an edition of that model with this feature, or whether my father masked and did that for me before giving me the kit on my 10th birthday.  As it was, the  model was never protected by a case and suffered irreversible damage at some point (no one offer confessed).  I then built a solid-hull Cutty from a Scientific kit and painted the bottom copper myself - the brush strokes weren't too noticeable.  My cousin was the one who wrecked that ship because I saw him do it - thereafter (since he also hammered an oversized empty cartridge case into my Dad's bolt-action rifle on the same visit) the out-of-state cousin was never to visit again (setting a fire might also have had something to do with the ban).

 

  Pre-copper age vessels don't need a thing (and I like the look of unpainted wood having a natural brown color like mahogany or walnut), and an upcoming project (the Endurance) had anti-fouling paint ... quite easy to do.  So what would I try for a copper sheathed ship?  I saw a posting from a builder who did second planking below the waterline with rectangles of the second planking wood.  Now they happened to be a little large for scale purposes, and they weren't formed uniformly to the underlying faired surface at that point in the build.  But sanding would 're-fair' the bottom.  I never went back to see the finished effect (or perhaps the log happened to end there), but I suppose that if the wood 'tiles' were sealed and sanded a couple of times the wood grain would vanish and leave a smooth surface like copper plates.

 

  I've a LOT of experience working with shellac on fine furniture, and if the coats are allowed to dry fully before lightly sanding with a very fine paper, a smooth surface can be had.  Then I'd paint the bottom that bronze 'patina' brown color as a base, then do a judicious 'wash' of the greenish color all over - perhaps daubed on somehow and worked with q-tips so the green wouldn't take over?  If the surface was not 'over shellacked', then the joints would still be visible (although the fine wood grain would be filled) and the green wash would tend to stay in the joints when wiping the 'washed' surface lightly after the green was applied.  Please note that this is a proposed method, so perhaps I'll do a mock-up to explore this possible method.  No copper would be needed at all.

 

  I've also seen the 'imitation gold leaf' Chuck posted, and I used that once upon a time on a carved wood project.  If desired, the second planking of  ship below the water line could be done with cut 'tiles' of second planking wood (preferable to scale) thereafter faired and sealed, then after thinned glue is applied the metal foil would adhere to the wood tiles.  Then a series of washes would 'age' the surface as desired.  ... just thinking out loud here.

 

Fair sailing - Johnny

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

 

First off, the "ponce wheel effect" produces convex "dimples," while the picture shows concave dimples. Big difference.

 

Second, the workmen in the picture are doing a really lousy job of it. (The hardhats are a dead giveaway. They're probably government subcontractors who belong to the roofers' union, not the caulkers' union, which I don't think exists anymore, although there once was one. See footnote below.) They are driving the tacks with carpenter's hammers, which leave large dimples and creases in the copper surface. A ship's bottom should be as smooth as possible to reduce friction resistance in the water. Copper sheathing is properly fastened with a "coppering hammer," which has a convex-shaped striking face with a rounded edge that permits the tack head to be driven flush with the surface of the copper sheet while minimizing dimpling and preventing creasing the sheet itself.

 

 

 

A newly coppered yacht hull properly done. 

 

 

A  copper plate on USS Constitution photographed during restoration:

 

 

 

 

Note the absence of "rivets (sic)" on a well-portrayed copper bottom on a fine model of Cutty Sark:

 

 

Footnote: 

Caulking in the United States became a trade widely practiced by free African Americans in the mid-nineteenth century. Many caulking crews were itinerant workers who would travel from shipyard to ship yard to caulk hulls on contract as their skills were required. Racial discrimination in the workplace resulted African American caulkers buying their own shipyard, the Chesapeake Marin Railway and Dry Docking Company in 1866. This was quickly followed by the formation of the Colored Caulkers' Trade Union in 1868, one of the first African American trade unions  to be created and the precursor to the Colored National Labor Union. When the founding president of the Colored Caulkers' Trade Union became the president of the Colored National Labor Union, he was followed as president of the Colored Caulkers' Trade Union by Frederick Douglass. Famed as a leader of the American abolitionist movement, few today realize that Frederick Douglass was a ship's caulker by trade and trade unionist, as well.  See:  https://aflcio.org/2021/2/11/pathway-progress-baltimore-caulkers-take-charge-their-own-future and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Myers

 

 

  Referring to the bottom photo of a fine Cutty Sark model ... THAT'S IT !    I mean, that is exactly the look I'd go for, and I think that the idea of wood 'tiles' applied the bottom when second planking would give that effect if green and white washes were carefully applied by hand over a coppery-brown base paint layer.  When I saw that picture, it was the same feeling in the scene form "A Charlie Brown Christmas" when Lucy asked Schroder to play Jingle Bells for her ... and version after version was rejected by Lucy who said something like, "You know, Jingle Bells - like Ho, Ho, Ho, mistletoe and ... pretty girls."  Whereupon Schroder banged out a one-finger version on a toy piano ... then Lucy shouted, "THAT'S IT ! "

 

  Anyway, all this back and forth about copper sheathing (actually I love it, since anything can be a springboard for new ideas) reminds me of a scene from the musical "Fiddler on the Roof" where the men are stating their different opinions on some subject - and Tevya tells one man, "You're right".  Then another man puts forth an opposing argument to Tevya who says to him, "You know, you're right."  A third man exclaims, "He's right, and he's right ... How can BOTH be right?"  Tevya responds, "You are also right."     ...     Johnny

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

I think that the idea of wood 'tiles' applied the bottom when second planking would give that effect if green and white washes were carefully applied by hand over a coppery-brown base paint layer.

You'd go crazy laying "wood tiles" to mimic copper sheathing.  It would be far easier to paste paper tiles and then saturate them in shellac. (Layers of muslin cloth soaked in shellac were laminated into sheets to make insulated circuit board material in the days before plastics. Shellac lasts forever and is very thin, so it won't obscure details.) Then paint and weather that surface. another approach that would work well would be to plank up the hull in the ordinary way and then give the bottom a light coating of gesso and sand that fair. Then scribe the fine lines in the gesso depicting the plating joints with a flexible straight edge and fine knife blade or scribe point (But don't overdo it. It's just the suggestion of a line that you want.) Then paint and weather.

[Keithbrad80]

5 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

First off, the "ponce wheel effect" produces convex "dimples," while the picture shows concave dimples. Big difference.

I think you have it backwards, the pounce wheel presses into the copper tape, creating concave dimples, flip the tape over and use the pounce wheel to create convex dimples that would better simulate rivets.
 

3 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

I mean, that is exactly the look I'd go for, and I think that the idea of wood 'tiles' applied the bottom when second planking would give that effect if green and white washes

Here’s a post of a user Devildog36 and his Thermopylae build he thought the copper plates were made of wood and made wood “tiles” that replaced his second planking. This sounds lot of extra work to me!

 

Bradley

[allanyed]

 I have never seen a ponce wheel that can space the nail pattern an inch or less apart at scale but would love to find one.  The smallest I can find is 1/4 inch diameter with about 18 teeth so the spacing is twice what it should be at 1:48, and triple or quadruple at other popular scales. The photo Bob posted seems to have spacing similar to that of the Connie, about 1 inch or less so a 1/4 inch wheel would need about  40 teeth for 1:48 and 60 teeth for 1:64.  For 1:96, 1:98, !:100  scales, it is much like trying to show treenails, impossible to make to scale.  Maybe at these scales it is better to have no nail pattern at all.     

Allan

 

[Stevinne]

2 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

(Layers of muslin cloth soaked in shellac were laminated into sheets to make insulated circuit board material in the days before plastics. Shellac lasts forever and is very thin, so it won't obscure details.) 

We had circuit boards before we had plastic? You learn something new every day.

[druxey]

If you absolutely want to pounce at scale, use watch gears.