Roman Quadrireme Galley by Ian_Grant - 1/32 Scale - RADIO

[Ian_Grant]

20 minutes ago, Glen McGuire said:

Congrats on the accomplishment, Ian!  That gives you more cuss words in the bank that you can use later!

LOL!

 

20 minutes ago, Glen McGuire said:

What are you using for the ply skin and how thick is it?

It's 1/32" "bending plywood". It has a core and two face layers, with a preferred bending axis. A local specialist hardwood/plywood place sells it in 50" x 50" sheets, or half sheets one of which I bought.

 

It's pretty thin, but firms up when in a bend. I plan to epoxy the inside, same as my old RC boats, which will strengthen and waterproof it. Still wondering about epoxying the outside; may depend on the weight after skinning/epoxying. Might just spar varnish the outside then sand before painting. Come to think of it may just spar varnish inside too to avoid the fumes.

[mtaylor]

Looking good from here, Ian.  As for the inner wood... once it's been skinned and has some strenght, perhaps you can remove some one as the skinning will probably help hold things in place.  Sort of like an Indy or Formula 1 car where there's minimal chassis as the body provides the stiffness needed.

[Ian_Grant]

15 hours ago, mtaylor said:

<snip..snip>  Sort of like an Indy or Formula 1 car where there's minimal chassis as the body provides the stiffness needed.

Or a Spitfire.   (Supermarine I mean; not Triumph!) 😉

Edited January 21, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

As I start the bow skinning I have to use smaller pieces of ply to divide the compound curves into smaller, weird quadrilaterals and trapezoids. Spacing between framing members is also smaller so I can't fit clamps to the inside, therefore I started using small ply battens and air-nailing temporarily to the frame through the ply. I put masking tape on the battens so they wouldn't end up glued on. The first couple of pieces went ok but on the third most of the 23ga pin nails snapped when I tried to pry them back out.

 

I've reverted to 18ga which won't snap, but could splinter bulkheads if I miss centre, sigh. Trying to shoot most of them into wales and stringers. It's not a pretty sight and it's too bad the resulting holes will be bigger than the 23ga, but I'm sure the filling/smoothing stage will hide all sins.

 

Here's a piece I just added. It's slow going: template the next piece using clear vellum paper, bandsaw out, test fit and adjust, glue on, wait 25 minutes to remove the battens, pull any remaining 18ga brads, scrape off glue squeeze-out before it fully sets, then on to the next.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

Got the bow skinned to waterline. Lots of pieces, lots of filling & sanding to come.

First four pieces glued at stern. The stern will be pretty tedious as it's all compound curves so I may end up skinning each little framing space individually, or at best two adjacent. You can see where I plugged some old slots in the bulkheads after changing my mind about my method. And where I extended the bilge stringer to three more bulkheads.

Oh, and my Conte Roman figures arrived. They're pretty nice. They're so detailed the guys with a foot off the ground even have the hobnails on their boot soles. 😲   I ordered a set in silver plastic figuring it would be easier to paint the armour on that base colour. Their web site showed they were in stock but that was in error, so Mr. Conte sent me the gold colour and kindly added an extra addendum set for free!!  I have 25 guys, some of which have optional arms/heads/weapons to select and glue in place. I plan to learn about casting resin in silicon molds; I've seen videos where people sort of squeeze a casting out of the soft silicon mold which could not be removed from a solid mold unless it was two-piece. Unfortunately 23 of my men are holding a scutum (the classic legionnaire shield) but I do have one left arm with a hand on the end. Those holding a scutum have their left forearms terminating in a square slab, for want of a better word, at the back of the scutum. The only guys I want with a scutum are some marines standing with an optio addressing them. I also have two with the bearskin draped over their shoulders and heads; no use for them on a ship, but they're beautifully molded. More unfortunately, although advertised as 54mm they are actually nearly 60mm to helmet crest so they look a little big against my planned 1/32 scale bulwark height. I'd have a crew of 6ft-2in Roman giants! Sigh. Not sure whether to use them now but there are few other options and I am not capable of making my own men.

 

This guy's pilum (spear) is bent. Conte advises dip in hot water then in cold while holding straight but a new brass one sounds better. I have no idea how they managed to mold his entire detailed body in one piece with the shield. Also no idea how I'm supposed to do detailed painting on his torso with the shield in the  way! 😬 Probably will cut the shield off his not-detailed left hand. I'm not sure what type of glue to use on this plastic either.

This guy can hold a gladius (Roman short sword) in each hand if desired. Wouldn't work out too well in a shield wall though; I would not want to be his neighbour! He has two right arms, two left arms, and two heads to pick from, one helmeted and one with a bandage wound round his head and over his left eye. Imaginative!

Edited February 12, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

Hull cladding to the waterline now complete except for the last 1-1/2" at the stern. That's because I didn't carry the inner wale to the last bulkhead. Maybe I should have. I can't have a ply joint where there is no framing member, so either the aftmost piece will have to run from keel to deck, or the the piece above the wale from outrigger to stern will have an "ell" to cover that last part. I'm hoping that the part from wale to deck can be one big piece since the curvature is not as extreme as that below waterline.

 

I recently noticed a mistake I made - I had the positions for the lower 22 oars marked on the keel but I seem to have forgotten that the 22nd upper oar is 5/8" aft of the 22nd lower oar and I placed a rib smack dab where that upper oar should project. 😭 I suppose the easiest fix would be to just omit the last upper oar, otherwise I need to cut the rib and frame a little box aft of it to support cladding.

 

I'm taking a break for a few days now; partly because I'm not sure how to proceed from here, partly because the Admiral wants me to re-do the bannister on our stairs. 😉

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Glen McGuire]

1 hour ago, Ian_Grant said:

the Admiral wants me to re-do the bannister on our stairs.

I'm hoping for a build log for that project too!

[BANYAN]

All 'gobbledy goop' tech talk to me Ian, but I am impressed with where you are going with this build - can't wait to see it in action.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Ian_Grant]

2 hours ago, BANYAN said:

All 'gobbledy goop' tech talk to me Ian, but I am impressed with where you are going with this build - can't wait to see it in action.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Thanks Pat!  Yes, the Arduino and software has definitely been techy but fun nonetheless. Luckily the Admiral is tolerant of my hobbies - I bought the oscilloscope for this AND wasted all that money on parts from Servo City too. Yikes!  But she was gradually groomed for this by all the brass parts orders from Europe for my recent static display model ships. 😄

 

I'm looking forward to maiden trials; I have multiple offers of neighbours' pools as locales since ours was destroyed by a falling maple tree. 😭

 

On Wednesday night I am going to a meeting of the local RC boat club, for the first time, since I seem to be getting back into the field. I'll take the hull with me for show and tell.

[Ian_Grant]

Finally finished work on my stair bannister, took many more hours than I expected.

 

Back to the ship.

 

I added the forward bulwarks with their sweeping curve up to the stem, and they really add something to the model.

Here are some pics; note that I haven't trimmed the inner edges of the rails yet. Stanchion tops were marked on a sheet of vellum and curving rail pieces were roughly bandsawn from wider strips. They're laminated; a 3/32" strip of pine was glued to a fillet on the stem and just the tops of the stanchions, with twist ties clamping the bend down, then once dry two layers of 1/16" plywood were added with the aid of the usual paper clamps. Once dry the outer curve could be faired to the hull lines. In hindsight the ply made the edges harder to sand; I will use just pine at the stern bulwarks.

 

The square ends of these forward bulwarks mark the gaps in the bulwarks for the boarding bridge. A cap rail will be added once the inner face is skinned. Which will be after I add the fixed portions of the deck, I guess.

 

It will soon be time to cut out the central ribs and that long reinforcing strip along the top.

Then I can start work on the outriggers. Speaking of which, I am changing the outrigger depth to 1-1/4" which will look more in scale with the hull. This necessitates a change in oar geometry; the upper tholes are 1/2" further out now than in the prototype and after studying the geometry I am lowering the upper reme tholes by 3/16" and returning to 2" oar looms from 1-1/2".  The 44 oars I already made will be the lower remes; the yet-to-be-made upper reme oars will be 1/2" or 5/8" longer so their blades reach out further beyond the lower blades. I was worried the upper reme might not provide much traction if they mainly swish along in the eddie currents of the lower reme.

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[rookie]

very cool!

Congratulations on the bannisters 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

This is one very intriguing project Ian - like some others, the arduino stuff goes way over my head but I can't wait to see the sea trials.

[Ian_Grant]

Have been working on the stern bulwarks. The starboard side is now skinned, except for some missing carved solid for the stem and ram. I used a solid piece of pine to shape the last couple of inches at the stern; couldn't imagine plywood bending to this recurved shape. Trimmed the starboard stern rail to width. Cap rail to come later.

 

When I add the external keel, it will have to wrap partway up the stern and taper to get the sternpost projection right. Might be some trimming of the sternpost too.

 

Obviously, there is going to be multiple filling/sanding cycles on this patchwork quilt hull.

 

Now on to the port side stern.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[BANYAN]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:44 PM, Ian_Grant said:

But she was gradually groomed for this by all the brass parts orders from Europe for my recent static display model ships. 😄

Ah so that's the trick - gradual grooming - puts paid to my 'shock and awe' approach   

 

Looking really good Ian, those line look really good; you must have put considerable effort into the fairing?

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Ian_Grant]

14 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Ah so that's the trick - gradual grooming - puts paid to my 'shock and awe' approach   

 

Looking really good Ian, those line look really good; you must have put considerable effort into the fairing?

 

cheers

 

Pat

Thanks Pat!  I cut bulkheads at bow and stern using half-hulls I carved then sliced up for patterns. The fairing was pretty good for a made-up hull from no plans, but yes there was a bit of fiddling in several places before skinning. I noticed the stern bulwarks don't appear parallel in the photo so I checked - the difference is real. Will need to sand the top rail on one side or the other depending on where the error is.

 

In the end, the 1/32" ply is so thin that there are places where it sort of flowed in straight lines from bulkhead to bulkhead, the dreaded "starving cow" effect. Will have to see if I can sand to better curves - not much leeway to sand the thin ply though, and I don't want to be plastering large areas with filler then attempting to blend in. 😬

Edited March 11, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[BANYAN]

For a hull made from no plans that looks pretty good.  Probably too late to add some additional filling/backing behind the ply to satisify those 'starving cows'; but if needed you can always glue a second layer in the 'holllows/flats to fill those areas out before sanding?

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Ian_Grant]

Got almost all the skinning done and closed in the stern with solid both sides.

 

I then decided it was the moment of truth; cut away all the midships bracing along the top to allow the outriggers to be started. My fear was there might be unbalanced tensions in the hull, and since the entire midships is only skinned to waterline and looks really low compared to the ends, there might be a "twang" as the whole hull twisted 10 degrees or something. But it was uneventful. One can more readily imagine now the oar mechanisms being dropped into the hull.

 

I've been adding solid at the bows to blend into the ram, but made a dog's breakfast of it. 🙄 Without really thinking I made the lower blocks just big enough to fill the open cavities, but they need to sweep further back to look right against the hull's taper. This means matching the curving hull on two axes as it overlaps. 🤔 I ended up adding various weirdly curved fillets with various pieces. What a mess! You can see in the bow picture I cleaned 'em up a bit, but they're staying flat on the side for now until I get the main wales installed, running to the ram. Then I will blend the lines better.

 

Speaking of the wales, I can't install them until I have the plywood strips with the holes for the lower oars installed, since the wales cover up the joints along these strips's bottom edges. So that's the next job.

 

Oh, I also did some sanding of the plywood joints. It actually looks pretty good in terms of having pretty fair hull lines. Smoothing the joints mostly reveals an irregular strip of the darker second ply layer along  each side of the joint. That's ok as all joints have framing members inside.

 

[Glen McGuire]

34 minutes ago, Ian_Grant said:

made a dog's breakfast of it

LOL!  Never heard that one before.  🤣

[Ian_Grant]

Oh, never thought of that. It's British slang I picked up from my Scottish parents, along with many old Scots words like fankle, glaikit, drookit, besom, teuchter, dreich, mauchit, fouter, eejit,.....I could go on and on......I actually use them occasionally......usually to blank stares.....

 

You can google their meanings if you like. That last one is obvious. 😃

 

My dad used to employ one of my favourites, which can replace GodDammit! or What In God's Name....."In the name of the wee man!!" 😄

Edited March 20, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Louie da fly]

"Dog's breakfast" is a common expression here in Oz, as well.

 

Steven

[rookie]

Hey Ian

 

Not sure if eejit is that obvious, ye ken?

[Glen McGuire]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:06 PM, Ian_Grant said:

fankle, glaikit, drookit, besom, teuchter, dreich, mauchit, fouter, eejit

With a last name like McGuire, you would think I might have heard of some of those words before.  Nope. 

 

I'll join in with the other blank stares!

[Hubac's Historian]

The dog’s breakfast is looking pretty appetizing to me, Ian.  Just catching up on your project, here, and I really appreciate your adjustments on the fly! 

[Ian_Grant]

Thank you Marc. She's looking pretty rough to this point; I just hope I can do the finer work and the finishing with more elegance.

[mtaylor]

10 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

Thank you Marc. She's looking pretty rough to this point; I just hope I can do the finer work and the finishing with more elegance.

"Pretty rough"?????  I don't think so. 

[Ian_Grant]

We're off on a bucket-list trip tomorrow so I thought I'd post the ship status.

 

I added the thicker plywood containing the ports for the lower oars, and also the main wales.

 

Transition from the ram up front getting more refined. The extreme stem is now a flat surface with two holes for aluminum rod "pins". The actual ram will be 3d-printed with matching holes. The real ship's wales went right into the ram casting to distribute the shock of impact along the entire fabric of the ship. This will be simulated with angled projecting "ears" on the ram to match the wales (same for the stem).

 

Next step is to add the external keel. Too bad as the flat bottom has been handy to have, but I don't want to be adding it after the perhaps fragile outriggers are on the sides. Wouldn't mind painting the bottom too, before adding the outriggers.

 

I made a start at sanding/filling. Hull actually feels pretty good considering. Does anyone have a recommended product to "caulk" the cracks where two surfaces meet? eg the wales and the hull? On house trim I'd just use latex painter's caulk and be done with it. Not sure if this would be suitable on a model boat on water........

 

Hope to hell this thing actually moves on the water!!! 🙄 😬

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Bedford]

More nice progress!

As for filling/sealing, I reckon you can't go past epoxy. You don't want to be paying a fortune for it but you should be able to get small trial packs. You can get really thin epoxy like everdure which goes on thinner than varnish and is easy to sand the furry first coat before doing a few more. If you get some normal epoxy you can thicken it with "Q cells" or similar. This makes an excellent easy sanding filler.

 

I know Boatcraft in Aus do trial packs of the above with their Bote Cote epoxy system.

[Louie da fly]

Ian, replying to your query regarding mast steps on Woodrat's build log so as not to derail his thread.

 

I came across this information when I was researching my dromon. Unfortunately there's almost no information on how dromons' masts were stepped, but for ancient Roman, as far as I know, the mast was "hinged" and when lowered rested on a fork called the istodoke.

 

I have the following pictures:

 

Istodoke from an ancient Greek bowl showing Jason and the Argonauts

 

   

Istodoke from a 3rd century AD Roman mosaic, Therma, Tunisia, North Africa

 

         

istodoki from Roman mosaics in  Themetra Tunisia 

 

Hellenic ship, mosaic  (ca 1st century BCE-1st century AD)

 

istodoki on Trajan's column, Rome c. 114 C.E.

 

The same general system was later adopted in the 18th century by the famous ship designer Chapman in Scandinavian gunboats. The "pivot" was called a pulpit, for obvious reasons.

 

I hope that helps. 

 

Steven

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Ian_Grant]

Thanks Steven!  That does help, a lot. I can imagine the mast pivoting aft since the archery tower is forward. Actually, it would be cool to make it hinged so as to lower it when "drydocked".  Will see what I come up with.

 

 

[Louie da fly]

Yes, that would make sense. Go for it!

 

Steven