Treenail detail option?

[S.Coleman]

As I have seen on other build logs, some put in treenails in their deck planking. In the kit by Modelers Shipyard the Perserverance Brig there are no plans to put these in. The scale is 1:48 and I was wondering is this a good scale to model these in the deck? I have not started this build yet but I'm just doing some research and going over the plans. Also I have never modeled treenails before but have seen it done in some of the build logs on this forum. If possible, should I add this detail in being a 1:48th scale model?

 

I know everyone has there own opinions on how they build there kits I just wanted to see what everyone thought.

[BareHook]

I had posed a question in the past regarding treenails and the minimum reasonable scale to do them. I believe most agreed 1:64 or larger is fine for treenailing deck and hull but the smaller scales would be difficult.  I did treenails on the deck of my AVS which is the same scale as your kit (1:48) and was happy with the results. It comes down to the end effect you are looking for. I wanted to show some fine detail that represents construction and adds to the overall display and was happy with the result. So far I've only used "false" treenails (drilling holes and filling with putty) but I like the look and I don't know if I could make real ones with a draw plate without losing my mind

 

Before doing it to your deck, build a small sample deck and try it out to see if you like the results.

 

Ken

[wefalck]

Actually, on the real thing there were no treenails in the decks. What you see (or rather mostly not, except when really standing on a deck) are wooden plugs that cover the holes drilled for iron bolts (at least in later ships). The plugs do not show end-grain (as would treenails do) but were cut so that the grain runs in the same direction as the planks. The idea was to make them almost invisible for  aesthetic reasons.

 

It seems to be a fashion among modellers to use treenails to show how much effort they put into a model. There is also some mechanical reason, as the treenail securely fastens the plank. Otherwise, I would ignore them on a true 'scale' model.

 

wefalck

[S.Coleman]

Thanks for the feedback, BareHook, I will make up a sample deck and see what results I come up with. Sometimes it's best to do a trial and error with these things before starting the kit. I can imagine some enjoyable time with some bamboo BBQ squewers. I'll look into a draw plate. Thanks guys!

[kellrandy]

On my first build ever, it was the Albatros kit from Occre. It's a 1/100 scale build, pretty small and I did do bamboo trunnels for the whole thing, decks, planking you name it. It is a double planked kit and I made everything to scale as much as I could. On the planking, the wood is sapelli and the bamboo stood out way too much for my taste and would make it look like it had chicken-pox or something. So I resorted to staining them mahogany to match the sapelli color. I left them natural for the decking. So why bother, right? Well after doing it on a test piece for both, it's clear that they are there and I can barely see them, but they do add great detail that would not be there if I didn't bother and to me it looks great. Just my two cents.

[S.Coleman]

Would that chip stick that you can get from furniture stores work if they do have the right tone? I've seen it for darker woods but I wonder if it's possible to get a much lighter tone. I might have to go and enquire.

[Pygothian]

I remember Chuck posted a technique of drilling out holes and filling with coloured putty to give the tree-nail affect.

 

G'day Brian, you don't happen to know where I could find that technique guide.

 

I'm still deciding what I'll do. I've ordered a draw plate incase I do true tree nails, but maybe the putty trick might work if I can get the correct colour match.

 

 

Cheers

Rowan

[augie]

The technique I've used is based on Chucks.  Basically, you select a pin vise drill size that suits your scale and eye.  It's important to try some samples on a scrap prototype deck before you commit.  On a 1:64, about a #70 size hole looks good to me for treenails.  I have used a #65 for keel bolts if you require those.

 

Line up your holes with a piece of tape to keep them straight.  Be careful with the spacing.  Drill the holes and then GENTLY  clean/round them out with an awl, needle or other smooth, sharp object.  Do NOT makes the holes any bigger.  The choose your filler and determine the color beforehand.  I use a tinted filler called 'Hobbylite' which is a light wood color.  Force it into the drilled holes, wipe it off smooth before it dries and then let it set.  A light sanding with something like 320 grit can be done when it's set.  Then finish it along with the deck itself.  I like them barely visible so that you are aware they are there yet not overpowering.

 

I can not emphasize enough making the trial runs off the ship until you are satisfied. 

[hornet]

I agree with Brian C - The Model Machines Drawplate  is brilliant - one of my favourite non powered toys!! I have used bamboo BBQ skewers to treenail/Trennel/trunnel on my last two builds. I think tree nailing and another dimension to the hobby and, if done well, looks great. I found that the bamboo skewers went through the drawplate well, but had to be sliced longitudinally several times in order to fit into the larger holes. This meant slicing with a hobby knife. I found this to be a pain for two reasons. Firstly getting the hobby knife to slice evenly along the length of the skewer was sometimes difficult. Secondly I tended to cut, stab and splinter myself  with the knife &  bamboo slivers - klutz!!

 

I ended up making a simple jig to halve, quarter and then further divide the skewer if necessary - without blood and swearing!!!(see pics below)

 

 

The Byrnes Drawplate - an engineering masterpiece!!!

 

 

- take 2 identical pieces of pine which are slightly bigger than a razor blade and drill 2 holes through them (clamp together for drilling so holes line up perfectly in both)

 

- insert  bolts which will be fitted with wing nuts for quick adjustment

 

- Fit both pieces of wood together and tighten wing nuts

 

- Drill a hole (about the same size as a bbq skewer) down the centre of the 2 pieces of wood - make sure that half the hole you drill is in each piece of wood. - a bench mounted drill will achieve much more accurate results than a hand held one.

 

- Do the same with a smaller drill bit - for use once you have quartered your skewer.

 

 

- fit your razorblade over the bolts

 

 

- slide the top half of the jig over the bolts and tighten with the wing nuts

 

 

- the jig can be adjusted by tightening or loosening the wing nuts - this will accommodate any slight variation in skewer diameter.

 

- Push then pull the skewer over the razor to produce an even slice.

 

                                 Happy tree nailing!!

Edited July 10, 2014 by hornet

[SJSoane]

Ingenious!

[hornet]

Thanks SJSoane,

 

I often think I spend more time thinking of ways to make modelling easier than I do actually modelling!!

[dgbot]

For anyone who uses a syringe you can flatten out the needle.  Then use this to make your trunnels.  The hollow needle will leave a very fine circle and with the grain going in the same direction looks great.  I am now on Lovenox injections daily.  Once I learn how to deactivate the safety on the syringes I will flatten out the tips and give it a try.  Be very careful if you do this though.

David B

[wefalck]

I gather you meant to grind the point of the needle flat ? What do you mean by 'deactivate the safety on the syringes' ?. Normally, the needle detach easily by turning them and pulling. Some also have a so-called Luer-Lock mechanism, which is short thread. You just turn the needle and it comes off.

[dgbot]

These are one time use only.  When fully used you press down and the needle retracts into the syringe.  The oldler model use a plastic tube around the needle.

David B

[Keith_W]

dgbot I think that the needles on those Lovenox syringes are extremely fine, they are subcutaneous needles and usually about 25 Gauge (0.5mm). That's tiny, and may not be suitable for simulating treenails unless you are trying to simulate very small ones.

[jud]

Go your local Farm Supply outlet and look over the needles in the Vet supplies. You won't need the syringe because you can make the handle. Maybe you will want several, one straight, one at 30° or 45° and another at 90°. You should be able to cut the end by using a cutoff wheel then polish it using fine emery paper.

jud

[dgbot]

The reason I made this comment was that a scale of 1:96 or smaller trunnels if not done correctly give a bad case of maritime measles.  I have seen this disease at shows to many times.  At my scale or smaller you should only be aware of them if you squint and look very carefully.  This is only a thought at the moment.  I have seen it done beautifully on a 1:192 HMS Fubbs years ago at the time I did not have my camera which was a shame.  But under a glass you could just barely make them out.  Since the circle was with the grain you would have thought he actually cut and installed the plugs.

David B

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

Or you can buy various gauges of blunt tip needles from Amazon.

 

Has anyone tried these?

[dgbot]

I have seen it done several times over the years and it does make a difference.  No more measles.  Years ago I saw a real nice model of the clipper Flying Fish but the trunnels could be seen though the case at a distance of about 4ft.  Not good.

David B

[bear]

Ahoy Mates

 

I drill out the hole then fill it with colored Titebond. I use a modified Chuck Passaro way. I color the Titebond with enamel paint-Modelmaster's and have no problems. I drill out the holes after the planking has been Dullcoted first. That seals the wood surface,which makes it easy to remove the excess glue-paint off the surface. I use the end of a xacto blade to force the mixture into the drilled hole leaving a small amount above the surface.

 

You let it harden up for about ten minutes-NO LONGER,then file off the surface flush with the planks. Then repeat if the glue mix has shrunk into the hole.

 

Try it out and see if you like it. I tried using water based paint to color the glue with,but it had a chemical reaction with the Titebond and gelled up the mix. I have used it on my Mary Rose build as the photo shows. I had to try out the color mix,after I sanded them down smooth I coated over with Dullcote,and it darkens them up a little. You just have to find out the right combination.

 

If you let the glue mix dry more than a couple of hours or overnight,it's very hard to sand off the planks,even with the planks having been Dullcoted. The Dullcoted planks also allow the hole edges to be sharp edged without any burrs like uncoated wood does. The planking is boxwood and swiss pear.

 

Try it out and see if you like it.

 

Just another way of doing things.

Keith

[allanyed]

 Keith,

 

Hope you don't mind this question, but what are the ribband looking strakes?  I have seen ribbands and harpins used to hold the frames secure until planking is put on but never seen anything like this over planking before.

Thanks

Allan

[Chuck]

Allan

 

Its a weird thing but it is always shown on models of the Mary Rose. Here is a bassett- lowke model of the Mary Rose and you can see the same batten type strakes along the bottom of the hull.   Its very weird.

 

[dgbot]

I was wondering if they could be an early form of bilge keel?

David B

Edited May 18, 2016 by dgbot

[MEPering]

Those strakes don't make any sense to me... They seem like they would accomplish little but serve as a place for barnacles to thrive.  Wish I knew the logic behind them.

 

Matt