Hairy/fuzzy rigging thread

[The Gimps Chimp]

Hi guys,

 

Sorry if this has been asked before but I couldn't find an answer anywhere.  I'm currently building the HMS Beagle kit from Occre.  The rigging thread seems to me as being overly hairy/fuzzy.  I've previously build a kit from Caldercraft  and the thread was much cleaner/smoother.  As I will be investing many hours on the rigging I don't want to get through it only to be disappointed with the result.  I have considered purchasing some Caldercraft thread from a supplier but wondered if there was anything I can do with the thread I have.  I've seen some posts which talk of using beeswax on thread.  Will this solve my problem?  I've seen other posts which state beeswax shouldn't be used.  In the following photo I show some original 0.5mm thread (left) alongside similar thread which I've passed over a flame to burn off the hairs (right).  Although much better I don't think this is the solution to my problem as I tried it with some 0.15mm thread and it quickly disappeared in flames.

 

Many thanks 

Chimp

[Dziadeczek]

You have to do the burning off rather quickly, passing your thread over the flame, otherwise you run a risk of burning away the thread itself, especially polyester which melts in heat easily.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Dziadeczek

[Gregory]

I have experimented with bees wax but did not find it to be a solution to the fuzzies..

 

The flame  ( alcohol lamp )  is the best way , but takes practice and care.

 

For the UK, I have heard Amati sells  pretty good rope.  Available at Cornwall Model Boats..

 

Most kit supplied rope leaves a lot to be desired,

 

If you are planning on building more boats, kits or otherwise, you might look into making your own rope..

[allanyed]

According to the American Bee Journal, bees wax has a pH of 7 thus neutral (https://americanbeejournal.com/beeswax/#:~:text=As beeswax is the primary,7) suits the need perfectly) so not a bad thing to use, but it will only lay down the fuzzies to a limited extent and not get rid of it. You are better off to make your own rope as mentioned above or buy from the various rope suppliers mentioned here at MSW.   

Allan

 

[Gregory]

Back when I was building my first kit  almost 30 years ago, and there was no internet, I came across the idea of beeswax dissolved in turpentine.

I think it may have been Longridge's Anatomy of Nelson's Ships, or an article in Seaways. This allowed it to really soak the line, and the turpentine would evaporate after a while.  I still had to use an alcohol lamp to get rid of the fuzzies.  I still have that ship ( in pieces ) and the rigging line, I believe it is cotton, is quite stiff.

It looks OK..  I believe the beeswax helps it from being affected by moisture, which is not a problem with polyester..

 

The fuzzies are not as much of a problem with polyester, depending on the thread.  Seems to be minimal with the Gutterman I use for making my own rope..

[barkeater]

I have used bow string wax which is used for target or hunting bows. I don't know the ph or if there are long term issues, but it is easier to use than bees wax and it works well. It comes in a container like chapstick or lip gloss.

[The Gimps Chimp]

Hi guys, many thanks for your replies.  It sounds like a common issue.  I think the thread supplied with the Occre kit is particularly hairy.  I've taken a screen grab from another build log of the same ship to show what it's like:

 

I've just ordered some beeswax to give that a go.  If that doesn't help then maybe I'll have to order some from a supplier that I know are better. 

 

Looking at Gutterman polyester thread they don't appear to give thread diameter but weight e.g. 25g (0.9oz).  Does anyone know how to convert or have a lookup table?

 

Chimp

[BenD]

I use PH neutral bookbinders PVA, It wont damage the cotton over time and keeps the fuzz down. 1/20 or higher dilution with water is recommended.

 

This is the one I've been using. Lineco PH Neutral PVA

[TMAN]

Hey guys,

Here's how I solved my problems with fuzzy line:

1. I no longer use beeswax on rope line, especially on black shroud lines; it seems to leave a "whitish" film on black line, for one, and doesn't really seem          to  solve the "fuzzies."

2. I make a solution of white glue (although Titebond works) and water in a container with a screw on cap.

3. I then cut about a 4' length of line (depending on how much I need) and place it in the solution. I shake the bottle so that the line gets saturated.

4. I let the line sit in the solution for about 10 - 15 minutes.

5. I then carefully remove the line (which gets somewhat tangled up from the shaking)  and run it between my forefinger and thumb to wipe of the excess      solution back into the bottle.

6. I then hang the line using an alligator type clip to dry. You can also dry the line with a hair dryer which makes the process quicker. I've found that this          step accomplishes several things: it takes out all the kinks in the line, it reduces the fuzz more than beeswax (without discoloring the line), it makes            running rigging lines hang more        naturally and although the lines seem a little stiffer, after steps 1-5, I believe it makes rigging go smoother. 

 

 

 

 

 

[TMAN]

As and addendum to my prior post, I have to disclose that learned this process from watching a YouTube video by Tom Lauria where he described this a the process he used to as opposed to beeswax.

I think this works really nice...........

 

[mtaylor]

2 hours ago, TMAN said:

As and addendum to my prior post, I have to disclose that learned this process from watching a YouTube video by Tom Lauria where he described this a the process he used to as opposed to beeswax.

I think this works really nice...........

 

Some of us do "paint" our line after rigging with the glue/water mix to both stiffen it and put down the fuzzies.    The better the line, the less fuzzies to begin with.  However, the glue/water step is still done to get the line to hang better and also for coils.

[The Gimps Chimp]

Just a quick update to my original post:

 

I've now got some beeswax and given that a go.  As previously suggested, this makes things a little better but doesn't solve the problem  

 

I'm now looking into making my own rope.  Everything I read on this site suggests it's relatively straightforward.   Having started to look into the topic I'm generating more questions than answers.  The kit I'm currently building is HMS Beagle at 1/64 scale.  The supplied thread is 0.15mm and 0.5mm.  Would it be unreasonable to expect to make 0.15mm rope?  Should I just use Gutterman polyester thread, if so which size ...... mara 120, mara 100, mara 70 ...etc.  I think three strands of Gutterman mara 70 should give me a good 0.5mm rope.

 

Chimp

[Gregory]

Here are Chucks basic recipes using various   Mara ( size/weight )..

 

https://modelshipworld.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=602941 405.12 kB · 158 downloads

 

His sizes are in inches, so you can multiply by 25.4 to get mm.

 

His smallest recipe is .oo8"  which is .2mm.  He uses 3 strands of Mara 120, so 2 strands might get you close to .15.

That is really small stuff.

The kit supplied sizes may not be a good match for actual ( scale ) practice..  Of course that opens another can of worms, because actual practice might have called for many more sizes that those specified in a kit..

.5mm Will fall between the .018 and .025 in the recipe.  You could experiment to get something to fall between those two.

Three strands of 70 sounds like it would be close.

 

Chuck's recipes are for his Rope Rocket, so a different type of rope maker might produce different results.

 

[harlequin]

i used this stuff on some of my rigging.....passed it through pressing my thumb into the wax then rolling the fuzz flat....worked well for me...

Edited February 22, 2022 by harlequin

[The Gimps Chimp]

10 hours ago, harlequin said:

i used this stuff on some of my rigging.....passed it through pressing my thumb into the wax then rolling the fuzz flat....worked well for me...

I've just ordered some.  Let's see how I get on with it.

 

Many thanks

Chimp

[The Gimps Chimp]

11 hours ago, Gregory said:

Here are Chucks basic recipes using various   Mara ( size/weight )..

 

https://modelshipworld.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=602941 405.12 kB · 158 downloads

 

His sizes are in inches, so you can multiply by 25.4 to get mm.

 

His smallest recipe is .oo8"  which is .2mm.  He uses 3 strands of Mara 120, so 2 strands might get you close to .15.

That is really small stuff.

The kit supplied sizes may not be a good match for actual ( scale ) practice..  Of course that opens another can of worms, because actual practice might have called for many more sizes that those specified in a kit..

.5mm Will fall between the .018 and .025 in the recipe.  You could experiment to get something to fall between those two.

Three strands of 70 sounds like it would be close.

 

Chuck's recipes are for his Rope Rocket, so a different type of rope maker might produce different results.

 

Getting hold of the Gutterman mara thread is proving difficult here in the UK, not sure what it's like in other parts of the world.  I've now ordered some mara 100 to give that a go.  This will be my first experience of rope making so will be interesting to see how it goes.

 

As you say Gregory, this whole topic is a 'can of worms' and I do wonder if I'm overthinking things.  My current skills of ship making are, shall we say, 'limited'.  This is only my second model.  However, as I'm going to be spending many hours of time and effort on this I would like to be happy with the result, and I'm always happy to learn new skills.

 

Many thanks for your help

Chimp

[harlequin]

53 minutes ago, The Gimps Chimp said:

I've just ordered some.  Let's see how I get on with it.

 

Many thanks

Chimp

good luck with it.....i used it on both black and white rigging and it was fine. I suppose a lot depends on how coarse the rigging is..

[DelF]

53 minutes ago, The Gimps Chimp said:

Getting hold of the Gutterman mara thread is proving difficult here in the UK

I get mine here: https://www.williamgee.co.uk/shop/gutermann-threads-mara-100-5000m-cone/

 

They have plenty of #696 (for running rigging) and #854 (standing) in all different thicknesses.

Edited February 22, 2022 by DelF

[The Gimps Chimp]

21 minutes ago, DelF said:

I get mine here: https://www.williamgee.co.uk/shop/gutermann-threads-mara-100-5000m-cone/

 

They have plenty of #696 (for running rigging) and #854 (standing) in all different thicknesses.

That's exactly what I've ordered and from the same supplier.  Delivery was a bit pricey but that's what it is.

Many thanks

Chimp

[The Gimps Chimp]

On 2/22/2022 at 12:07 AM, harlequin said:

i used this stuff on some of my rigging.....passed it through pressing my thumb into the wax then rolling the fuzz flat....worked well for me...

 

I've just received my order of Tacky Wax and have given it a go.  It certainly appears to work well and the resulting thread is significantly less hairy.  My only concern is, after having applied a layer of this wax will it remain tacky and encourage airborne dust to stick to the rigging?  Any thoughts?

 

Chimp

[harlequin]

mine appears to be ok.....no extra dust noticed..

 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 2/21/2022 at 11:55 AM, TMAN said:

Hey guys,

Here's how I solved my problems with fuzzy line:

1. I no longer use beeswax on rope line, especially on black shroud lines; it seems to leave a "whitish" film on black line, for one, and doesn't really seem          to  solve the "fuzzies."

2. I make a solution of white glue (although Titebond works) and water in a container with a screw on cap.

3. I then cut about a 4' length of line (depending on how much I need) and place it in the solution. I shake the bottle so that the line gets saturated.

4. I let the line sit in the solution for about 10 - 15 minutes.

5. I then carefully remove the line (which gets somewhat tangled up from the shaking)  and run it between my forefinger and thumb to wipe of the excess      solution back into the bottle.

6. I then hang the line using an alligator type clip to dry. You can also dry the line with a hair dryer which makes the process quicker. I've found that this          step accomplishes several things: it takes out all the kinks in the line, it reduces the fuzz more than beeswax (without discoloring the line), it makes            running rigging lines hang more        naturally and although the lines seem a little stiffer, after steps 1-5, I believe it makes rigging go smoother. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  So what is the RATIO of glue to water that you used?  1:4   1:10  ?  This has got to make a big difference as the more concentrated the 'stiffer' it might make the rope.  I do like Titebond (or any similar aliphatic resin glue) - especially in Winter (like now) when the relative humidity in our home is VERY dry.  Bits of wood I glue with it 'grab' quickly and there is a partial cure in 30 min or so.  Letting a blob of glue set on a paint stirrer as I work has some of the water in the glue evaporate to provide a 'thicker' glue even better to use for a 'quick bonding' effect.  The same effect can be had if one leaves the top off a glue squeeze bottle for a couple days - then all the glue in that bottle gets more viscous.  Putting the top back on stops the process from going buying what is desired.  The thinner the glue, the more 'work time' for re-positioning.  But if you pieces have been pre fabricated and test fitted already, who needs all that 'open time'?

[TMAN]

Hi Johnny, 

Thanks for your post....I don't use a specific ratio, glue to water. I put an amount of water (about 3/4" deep) in a plastic container with a screw on top and add about 3 - 4 drops of Titebond to the water and stir, or shake, it up to a thin milky consistency (like skim milk). As I stated earlier, I soak  the line for about 10-15 minutes to let the solution saturate the line. The line does not come out overly stiff or sticky as I run the line through my fingers as I remove the line from the container. That doesn't allow the line to stiffen up to a "wood like" piece; in fact, the line is very workable and can be rove in short order. I hang the line with alligator clips, from a hook in the ceiling for straightening.  I usually wait a few hours or overnite before rigging the line. That's why I soak longer lengths (4'); I then cut the line to the lengths I need. This is really a "go with the flow" system that works for me. No more fuzzies!   

[The Gimps Chimp]

A quick update on where I am with rigging thread:

 

I've just got hold of a crude 3D printed ropewalk and some Guttermann mara 100 thread.  Here is a photo showing the different threads/rope.

 

Leftmost is the base Guttermann mara 100 thread

1st right is the supplied 0.15mm OcCre thread

2nd right is my first attempt of rope with three strands of mara 100

Rightmost is the supplied 0.5mm OcCre thread

 

 

The photo below shows two coils.  On the left a coil of OcCre 0.15mm thread and on the right a coil of my homemade rope.

 

 

I know my homemade rope isn't perfect but I'm very happy with the result so far.  I now need to practice my ropemaking skills to try and perfect the process.  The mara 100 thread and the resulting rope is much less hairy/fuzzy than the supplied thread so I'm now happy to spend the time rigging my ship.

 

Chimp

[Gregory]

Looks a lot better than the original thread from the kit!

[TMAN]

That's real nice line.... 

[amateur]

Seems to me we have a clear winner

 

 

[BranPie]

The OcCre supplied thread is terrible. Your first attempt is already a marked improvement.

On 3/3/2022 at 2:44 PM, The Gimps Chimp said:

I've just got hold of a crude 3D printed ropewalk... 

May I ask which ropewalk you used? 

[The Gimps Chimp]

13 hours ago, BranPie said:

The OcCre supplied thread is terrible. Your first attempt is already a marked improvement.

May I ask which ropewalk you used? 

Hi BranPie,

I was talking with a mechanical engineer friend about making a ropewalk and about gears and bearings.  He then quickly found the files for a 3D printed ropewalk which had been posted on another forum by someone called "epicdoom".  My friend then printed and assembled the device and gave it to me to do my worst.  It functions well but has some limitations.  I'm still experimenting with it but it does produce reasonable rope.  It uses standard 608Z skateboard bearings which I managed to get from Amazon at £7 for 30 bearings (you only need 5 for the ropewalk).  I've attached the files needed to this post.

 

Chimp

Ropewalk.zip

[stuglo]

If cotton or linen thread has the "fuzzies" even after fitting, try judicious use of lit taper or match to singe the buggers