Choice of Mill

[Juddson]

I’m going to be in the market for a mill soon, and I’m wondering what people are using who frequent this forum.  I have som ideas, but I don’t want to cloud the comments here.  What have you liked and not liked?

[CPDDET]

I have a Sherline and have been very pleased with both the quality of the mill, variety of available add-ons and great customer service.

[dvm27]

20 year Sherline mill user and agree with everything CPDDET says above. But there are several  hobby options available so check out other suggestions that will be offered here as well. You'll need to do your research here and decide how into milling you want to get. For example Sherline has a new CNC comptroller that could produce incredible results if you understand programming but I just have the basic milling machine pre-CNC. Here's a link to Sherline https://www.sherline.com/

[mnl]

Sherline is good, WABECO is better, Aciera or Sixis are best.

[grsjax]

Depends on what you want to use it for.  The vast majority of milling for model ships does not require a top of the line mill costing thousands of dollars.

[Boccherini]

I purchased a Proxxon MF70 some years ago with a precision vice, set of collets and a dividing head. It has been a most satisfactory addition to the workshop.

 

Grant.

[DelF]

+1 for the Proxxon MF70. Search on the forum and you'll find lots of examples of the work it can produce.

 

Derek

[Juddson]

To be honest, I was leaning towards the Proxxon.  The price is right.  I have had two concerns with what I have seen about it - many report it unusually loud and it vibrates quite a bit, moving around some unless bolted down (which will make it louder).  And, some concern about some sloppiness in the table (though this seems less universal).  
 

On the other hand, going just a hair upmarket from the Proxxon begins to t into real money (and weight).  I’m thinking the many Seig manufactured ones, which come in between $700 and $1100 and weigh 140 pounds.  

The Sherline strikes me as a very nice compromise.  About $750 and reasonably small.  AND, I like that if you tend towards the technical you can outfit it with CNC controlled stepper motors, which seems super great.  

[Justin P.]

I used a Proxxon for several years before recently upgrading to a Sherline (4-axis).   The Proxxon is a great little workhorse, but it is a bit noisy and there is lots of slop in the table.    The slop is easily mitigated if you are even a little bit mechanically inclined.   This video is great for calibrating and upgrading it to a precision tool.    After doing some of these modifications the slop is nearly gone on mine.  

 

 

[CPDDET]

You might want to compare the available accessories from Sherline and Proxxon. Don't know much about Proxxon but Sherline has a wide range of accessories for it's mill. 

I find the Sherline sensitive drilling attachment very useful, among others.

[Roger Pellett]

Major Sherline components: Lathe bed, mill table, mill column, motor and spindle assembly are modular.  This means that they can be interchanged to build a lathe or mill as the need arises.  I own a Sherline lathe with a detachable milling column.  For milling, this makes use of the lathe cross slide  as a milling table.  This is entirely adequate for milling small metal parts for models and for milling homemade jigs, fixtures, and tools.  The lathe cross-slide would probably be too small and would not have enough travel to mill the deadwood for a large POF model.  In that case, I can buy a separate milling table to use with my existing column and motor spindle assembly.

 

The reverse should be true.  If you buy a stand alone Sherline Mill, the motor spindle assembly should be able to be used with a separate bed to make a lathe as needed.

 

Sherline tools and accessories are beautifully made and well engineered instructions are well written and actually tell you how to use the equipment.  All are available in either Imperial or metric calibrations.

 

Roger

Edited March 16, 2022 by Roger Pellett

[CPDDET]

I will add that Sherline customer service is very good. 

But again, I'm not familiar with Proxxon so can't comment on theirs. It may be just as good.

[wefalck]

It would also depend on where you are located. Sherline is more expensive over here in Europe and Proxxon outside Europe.

 

Sieg and under whatever other names they are sold over the world vary considerably in price. Prepare to basically get some 'castings in advanced state of machining', when you go for a bargain offer. Lots of finishing and adjustment work needed it seems.

 

Adjustment will be needed for any machine after delivery, so don't expect it to work perfectly out of the box.

 

And I agree, it would be nice to have an Aciera or a Sixis ...

[mtaylor]

My first mill was MicroMark which was basically a Proxxon or a Sieg as I recall.  Not bad, not great but suitable for modeling.  My current mill is one from LittleMachineShop.com   A lot pricier and lot more accurate.  Do I need one like that.... not really but it is nice to have and use.  Everything is very smooth and precise.  BTW, as far as accessories go...  I've not had any issue with using the same accessories I got originally and can use them on my LMS machine.

[bruce d]

Juddson, a very important question when choosing a mill is 'what do you want it to do?'. 

The mills discussed so far are all good tools for the jobs they were designed to do. However, if you stray a little outside the intended application you may quickly find difficulties: for example, milling scarfs in wood is possible on most model makers mills but not all could handle the stress of machining castings to make a small steam engine. The Unimat SL/DB lathe with the milling column has been used by engineers, watchmakers and model engineers and I have milled cast iron, wood, nylon, steel and brass on mine. There are still plenty of accessories available, new and second-hand, to tailor the tool to your needs. Collet chucks, flycutters etc are still in production.  To a lesser degree the same comments apply to the Unimat 3 range. I don't know where you are but they are always available in UK or Europe on auction sites.

Yes, I know you didn't ask about lathes but in this case the subjects overlap.

 

Just my opinion, most makes of mills have a fan club and I am sure the other 'teams' will speak up!

 

HTH,

Bruce

 

 

 

[mtaylor]

Bruce offers a good point here about "what".  Also, there's "how often"?    

[Rik Thistle]

Hi juddson,

 

I've had a Proxxon MF70 for a couple of years or so. It was bought for working on model ships and very light metal work, and it does both fine. I tend to now use it mostly for small metal parts for static steam engines. You'll need a good range of Proxxon accessories to make best use of it. It is very quick to set up and use, although small cuts can take a while. On metal, I usually only take 0.125mm (5 thou") cuts at time, 0.250mm if I'm feeling adventurous.

 

It is very compact. I have screwed it to a permanent wooden base which is then clamped to the table. It is high speed (and therefore noisy) so I tend to wear ear defenders when using it.

 

 

Regards,

 

Richard

 

[DelF]

 

4 hours ago, Rik Thistle said:

It is high speed

Richard's point about speed is an important one. The MF70 has a maximum spindle speed of 20,000 RPM, which is about eight times faster than my larger 'regular' mill. Small mills rotating at high speed produce very clean cuts which makes them ideal for miniature work like model ship building. Larger mills have their place, but I always turn to the Proxxon for the finest work.

 

Derek

[wefalck]

There is no 'one size fits all'. The high top-spindle speed of the Proxxon MF70 was obviously chosen to allow the clean milling of wood. For metal the lower end might be still too high but for the smallest end-mills or burrs, when using them on metal. Also, milling of thermo-plastics, such as acrylics, require quite low speeds, as their heat-conductivity is low, so that they cannot dissipate the heat generated by the cutting quickly enough, resulting in melting.

 

One thing you probably find yourself doing or at least tempted to be doing is to make tools and fixtures for your mill and your lathe. I never assessed this, but I would guess that this is about half of the use-time on my machines. The reason is that it is fun, that it is cheaper than buying, that mean tools and fixtures you can buy are too big for these small machines or they are not precise enough, and the you can design them to your specific needs.

 

One budgetary consideration is also, that you probably have to spend a similar amount of money on tooling for the machines, mills and lathes, that you have spend on the bare machine. You will need milling vices of several sizes probably, clamping fixtures, a rotary table or indexer, a tilting table, and last not least a collection of spindle-tooling. The later also will need to be replaced (or resharpened) as they become dull.

[Roger Pellett]

Here’s an example of a specialized homemade fixture machined on my Sherline lathe fitted with its milling column.  The fixture holds brass parts for ladders while being soldered.  It’s made from aluminum.  Aluminum is easily machined and solder does not bond to it.  Aluminum is cheap and readily available from hardware and home improvement stores.  Most of the jigs and fixtures that I make do not require higher strength materials.  

 

[Juddson]

Folks, 

 

This has been a fantastic exposition on the common selection of mills (and lathes) and exactly what I was looking for.  Let me answer a few questions and set forth my initial thoughts:

 

I am undertaking a scratch build of a wooden ship.  Leaving aside whether I am at all capable of this seemingly Herculean task, the mill's primary purpose will be to mill the sort of hardwood commonly used in such projects with some degree of precision.  To this I would add a few limitations that are of some importance to me.  I run a small solo business (well, me and a receptionist) in a nice office building within walking distance of my house.  The space I have leased includes a large room that I do not need for my business and is being turned into a long-term dream of mine - a dedicated hobby space.  However, there is a tenant on the other side of two of its walls and one above as well.  ALTHOUGH I anticipate that all of my hobbying will be done after hours and on the weekends when I expect the other spaces to be unoccupied, a relatively more quiet machine is of great value to me.  In fact, I am willing to pay a premium for it. 

 

My other main hobby is the scratch building of vacuum tubes amplifiers and preamplifier for HiFi use (and some "rehab" work on vintage equipment as well).  Heretofore, I have been limited to off the shelf components (box break chassis from Hammond, knobs and dials from Digikey, etc).  At some point, I very much imagine turning the equipment I have in mind on the production of metal parts used in such projects.  At some point.   

 

So, long story short, milling hardwood and, eventually, the milling and turning of metals.      

 

Which leads me to the Proxxon MF70, which certainly has its adherents.  The price is right, and it is very compact.  All positives.  But many report it is partucularly noisy, and that gives me great pause.  What else gives me pause is the consistent reports that there is, perhaps, an unacceptable amount of slop in the table.  I have watched the video referenced above regarding modifications that can be made to improve this (in fact, even the motor and spindle can be replaced and it can be converted to belt drive with effort), but after it's all said and done, I suspect I will be up near what the next tier of mills would set me back. 

 

Which brings me to the Sherline 5000.  It seems to tic all the boxes for me.  It is belt driven, which I believe cuts down on the noise (and, anecdotally, it seems fairly quiet in comparison to some others that I have watched in action on YouTube).  It seems to be a precision machine, has many accessories available, AND the company sells lathe sleds and accessories that would seem to let one simply move the motor unit from one device to the other without shelling out for a whole new machine.  I'm sure that gets old in a hurry - but it's a start. 

 

That being said, a comment set forth above has given me pause - it makes sense to me that a high RPM machine is best suited to clean and precise cuts in wood, which I certainly want.  Should I be worried that I will be unhappy with the quality of the milling of wood from the Sherline? 

 

As a related aside, I have begun to gather a list of the machines I am likely to want for the project I am planning.  These would seem to include, 

 

Mill

Table saw (I like the Byrnes machine) (I have a full size machine for rough cuts already)

Thickness planer (I also like the Byrnes for this)

Band saw (cheapo WEN)

Reciprocating spindle sander (cheapo WEN) 

Disk and belt sander combo (cheapo WEN)

Lathe (though I think this will be purchased somewhat down the road - BTW, those vintage Unimat machines look the BUSINESS.  They seem to scream quality!).

 

Justin 

 

           

[Jaager]

I take it that you are soliciting feedback by writing this:

 

 

"Mill"

If you are going to work metal,  an actual mill is needed

If it is just wood that will be worked - a rebranded EuroTool small drill press - sharp cutters - and a quality XY table will probably suffice.

 

"Table saw (I like the Byrnes machine) (I have a full size machine for rough cuts already)"

Nothing else approaches this.

 

"Thickness planer (I also like the Byrnes for this)"

Nothing else approaches this.

 

"Band saw (cheapo WEN)"

not really a wise choice.  All bandsaws are squirrely to fine tune.  Even benchtop models need to be quality.  Quality is important.

Your entry here says that no serious resaw of boards is an objective.

For effective resawing, a floor model 14" at least will save on frustration

Even for a benchtop paying a bit extra for something like a Rikon 10" for scroll cutting will save you on heartache.

 

"Reciprocating spindle sander (cheapo WEN)"

Not wishing to deal with sandpaper tubes that are expensive, and have limited suppliers,  and compressed drums to hold them at can be made out of round.  I opted for sleeveless - which meant that I supply the motor and mount it vertical.

 

"Disk and belt sander combo (cheapo WEN)"

I have an old Dremel combo -  the disk part is not accurate and I could not get much use from a 1" belt.

The 5" Byrnes disk sander is about as good as it gets.   The only downside is if you plan to sand styrene or other sheet plastic - the Byrnes can not be set to have a reduced speed.

For a belt - a HF 4"x36"  -  it is low cost and shows it - I did not even mount the disk part - the housing on the back is thin - my shopVac pulled it into the backside of the belt. A steel angle brace keeps it away from the belt.  A belt sander does not really need to be precision to do rough bulk wood removal.   Using the rounded end for getting at inside curves works, but keeping the environment from being a dense cloud of sawdust is beyond most any vac.

 

"Lathe (though I think this will be purchased somewhat down the road - BTW, those vintage Unimat machines look the BUSINESS.  They seem to scream quality!)".

I have a Unimat SL 1000 and yes - it is both precise and accurate.  It was a real loss when the company went out of business.

A lathe is mostly an important machine if you intend to work metal.   Most anything it can do to wood can be faked using much less expensive machines - except maybe using a duplicator attachment for multiple copies of cannon and such.

 

Something that I bit on because my budget allowed for it is a Foredom TX flex shaft -  It is a high quality and versatile machine.  Besides the obvious rotary function - there are attachments for a small belt sander, angle grinder - drill,  attachments to make it into a miniature router, and sturdy drill press.  So far for me it is a tool looking for a job,  but it is anything but junk.   The TX model is about power and torque, not blindingly fast rotary speed.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Jaager

[No Idea]

The Sherline mill has a 10,000 rpm pulley set which is easy to fit. I use this when milling wood on mine and I get very clean cuts. 

[DocRob]

A very interesting discussion you have here, about mills. I'm actually thinking about buying one and have ruled out the Proxxon MF 70 as being to small, specially considering the possible way of the table, too fast for some materials and last but not least, being limited to tiny tools with only one shaft diameter.

As an alternative in the Proxxon range, I figured it could be possible to combine the stand BFB2000, the table KT150 and the motor BFw  40/E. All components are a bit bigger and sturdier than with the MF 70, but are still compact enough. You can go from 600-9000 rpm and use tools with up to a 6 mm shaft.

I would be interested, if somebody has experiences with the combo or parts of it. The price tag is around 600€, more or less double than the MF 70.

 

Cheers Rob 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by DocRob
added ca. price for orientation

[DelF]

Hi Rob

 

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the MF70. Search on the forum and see some of the work people achieve with this tool. The speed is high to give clean cuts in wood, which is what most people use it for. Also, it is not limited to tools with only one shaft diameter. The use of collets means you can use a wide range of drills and mills from 0 to about 3.4mm. These tools may be classed as tiny, but that's the point - they enable you to achieve very precise results at small scales. 

 

I'm fortunate enough to have a larger mill as well as the MF70, and that tool's fine for other hobbies and DIY jobs around the house, but at least 95% of the time the MF70 is my go to milling machine for ship modelling.

 

Hope that helps

 

Derek

[DaveBaxt]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:57 AM, DelF said:

+1 for the Proxxon MF70. Search on the forum and you'll find lots of examples of the work it can produce.

 

Derek

Great Price too. Although I am a relative beginner All my machine tools are Proxxon. No complaints so far., 

Edited June 2, 2022 by DaveBaxt

[Nirvana]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:59 AM, Justin P. said:

I used a Proxxon for several years before recently upgrading to a Sherline (4-axis).   The Proxxon is a great little workhorse, but it is a bit noisy and there is lots of slop in the table.    The slop is easily mitigated if you are even a little bit mechanically inclined.   This video is great for calibrating and upgrading it to a precision tool.    After doing some of these modifications the slop is nearly gone on mine.  

 

 

I didn't understand any word what was said in the video. No CC was available for me, just word and music.
But I get it that the Sherline; even the cheapest one is a much better starter as this can be upgraded further and further, when your economy allows.

[DocRob]

11 hours ago, DelF said:

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the MF70. Search on the forum and see some of the work people achieve with this tool. The speed is high to give clean cuts in wood, which is what most people use it for. Also, it is not limited to tools with only one shaft diameter. The use of collets means you can use a wide range of drills and mills from 0 to about 3.4mm. These tools may be classed as tiny, but that's the point - they enable you to achieve very precise results at small scales. 

 

I'm fortunate enough to have a larger mill as well as the MF70, and that tool's fine for other hobbies and DIY jobs around the house, but at least 95% of the time the MF70 is my go to milling machine for ship modelling.

Thank you Derek, that sure helps. Buying a mill is not urgent and I'm still in the phase of deciding about my needs and what I'm willing to pay. I was a metal engineer in a former live and used professional mills extensively for some years. During my education as an engineer, I was part of a team, developing a self built CNC-mill. That was back in the 80's mind. I wish, I had one of those machines now.

The wood milling aspect is what's new to me and you are right, speed helps with clean cuts here.
My plan is to mill wood, brass and aluminum and I will dig a bit deeper into the subject now. 

 

Cheers Rob

[Wacom]

I have the Proxxon FF230 a step up from the MF70 and used it in my Winchelsea build.

It runs like a sewing machine, quiet, no vibration and the table is rock solid and very precise.  Should you go this way make sure to get the fine feed, you would not regret buying this machine, mills wood very well plus metal.

good luck in your search.

[Justin P.]

13 hours ago, Nirvana said:

I didn't understand any word what was said in the video. No CC was available for me, just word and music.
But I get it that the Sherline; even the cheapest one is a much better starter as this can be upgraded further and further, when your economy allows.

Strange!   Was the option not available in the lower corner "CC?"   I just checked and it works for me, the captions are actually really good. 

 

I have enjoyed my Sherline so far, though the rigamarole assembly and squaring everything up had me a little confused.   The nice thing about the Proxxon is that it is more or less plug and play.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Justin P.