Young America 1853 by EdT - FINISHED - extreme clipper

[EdT]

Johann, thanks.  As a linen enthusiast, I would not want to discourage you from testing it.  Also, I have found that slubs in the linen thread may sometimes be picked out of the strands with tweezers before spinning to reduce their visibility in the finished rope.

 

STM, thanks, I do agree that it is easy to spend too much time on this issue - I know I have.  Also, I would not use linen thread straight from the spool, if only for the reason that all I have seen is left-handed, and small left-handed lines would be rare.  All the lines on YA are right-handed. If you could associate a brand with the AMMG standard that would be helpful. 

 

I have ordered some Londonderry 100/3 linen and will try it and report back.  

 

Ed

[druxey]

If a thread is laid up right handed, and you need to spin a right-handed line, all you need do is 'unspin' the separate strands (threads) first. As the headstock turns the strands will slacken, so move the tailstock away from the headstock. At a certain point the strands will commence to lay up again left-handed and you will see the tailstock begin to move toward the headstock. Check with a loupe until the strands are fully laid left-handed and continue to spin your line as usual.

[EdT]

At the risk of getting too worked up over the linen-cotton comparison, I took the two photos shown below.

 

The first photo shows three white threads labelled by type

In this picture the Lacis lace-making linen is decidedly more fuzzy.  Not so clear in this picture but probably in the next is that the linen on the right is less tightly wound and has more variation in diameter.  In the next picture, taken closer-up, the same threads have been dyed with the aqueous natural walnut stain that I use for hemp rope.  This highlights the twist and seems to suppress fuzz.  Fuzz is not a too major an issue since all ropes are passed through a flame to remove it  before use.

The twist direction is very visible in this photo.  The right-handed cotton is very uniformly wound and simulates rope very well.  I use this size for 2  to 2 1/4" inc rope.  The Barbour linen is more tightly wound than the Lacis and the left-handed twist is evident on both - though less pronounced than the uniform twist on the cotton.  For these reasons linen thread alone is not a good choice for right-handed rope.  However, its left-handed twist makes it easier to spin up into right-handed rope.

 

When I get the Londonderry thread I will get some comparisons with that , including some made rope.

 

Ed

[EdT]

Understood, Druxey.  The spinning just takes a bit longer.

 

Ed

[rwiederrich]

It's so true..we can spend far too much time on truly minor issues.  However, the purist can't help themselves.  Personally, I've concluded that it is an impossibility, to try to duplicate every aspect....from the actual materials used on real vessels, to models of them.

Linen, cotton, synthetic, blends.....? Non of it is hemp or steal cable

NOTHING we build our models from was ever used on the real vessels for the same purposes.

We use copper(for fabricating iron work)...They, real Iron.

We use bass wood and all manner of fine grained woods....They, Live Oak, Yellow pine, mahogany.

We use water based acrylic paints...They, lead based paints and worse.

We use brass/copper sheathing...They. Muntz (Yellow ) metal

Etc, Etc, Etc......

 

Personally, I feel you can use whatever is on hand to (REPLICATE) what you are trying to replicate.

This is such a personal hobby...were some major on minors and others somewhat less.

I appreciate the work and skill that is represented here...probably the greatest appreciation is representation in accuracy of actual historical items....NOT in what material was used to create it.

These rantings are all my personal view and I'm almost positive do not represent the majority of participants.

 

On a personal note...Ed...your attention to detail and fabrication is among the level of very few, and I appreciate you bringing us along on your great adventure.  The building of a first class clipper ship.

 

Rob

[stm]

Ed per your question earlier, the American Marine Model Gallery did not offer a particular linen brand, just type of material. The owner of this gallery worked for Mystic Sea Port at one point and the standards were actually developed the time that he was there. Published 1980. 

 

Scott

[EdT]

Young America - extreme clipper 1853
Part 299 – Crojack Yard 4

 

This part will wrap up the rigging work on the lower mizzen yard – aka the Crojack.  The last lines to be installed were the bowlines.  These were used to control the windward leech of the sail when the yards were braced at an angle.  They consisted of three parts each:  the 3" bowline, itself, a 3" lizard" about 25' long, with bullseyes spliced into each end, and one or more "bridles".  The single starboard bridle is shown in the first picture.

 

 

This is about 20' long and also 3".  The splices at the ends of this would be fastened to the bowline cringles on the sail, but since there are no sails on this model, the bridle is tied off to the jackstay where it could be cut loose and tied to the cringles when "bending" the sail to the yard.  The picture shows the upper bullseye of the starboard lizard. The the full length of the  lizard is shown in the next picture.

 

 

The next picture shows both bowlines installed, with arrows to help see the parts of the lines.

 

 

The standing end of each bowline is secured to the lower part of the mizzen topmast stay, passes up through the lower lizard bullseye, and finally belays on the outer arm of the main mast fife rail. 

 

The last two pictures show the fully-rigged crojack at this stage.

 

 

The loose chains hanging from the ends of the yard are the lower topsail sheets that will be connected to the clew lines when that yard is rigged.

 

 

 

So, as I mentioned in one of the responses, this is the seventh spar to be rigged, with another dozen to go – most being simpler, however.

 

Ed

[Dowmer]

2 hours ago, EdT said:

At the risk of getting too worked up over the linen-cotton comparison, I took the two photos shown below.

 

Ed, perhaps too worked up, but fun and interesting nonetheless. 

Its really a "compelling impression" of scale line we are trying to replicate here.  I find it fun using different materials and sources to achieve this and if we can find the right threads we can pass it on to the rest to benefit.  I appreciate you desire and willingness to help the rest of us mear mortals trying to keep up. 😀

 

 

[rwiederrich]

Fantastic work Ed.

 

Rob

[archjofo]

Hello Ed,

I would like to say once again that you are a fantastic model maker. Class pictures!

Since I do not want to overload your construction report, please follow the LINK.

There you can see pictures of the linen yarn that has arrived today, in comparison with that of DMC.
I would be very interested in your opinion.

[paulsutcliffe]

Awesome work ed as usual, please keep adding the arrows on your pictures sometimes I can't work the lines out and it was a great help thankyou

Regards

Paul 

[rwiederrich]

What is the size difference from 100 and 30.  I have several rolls of ECRU Art. A-105 Cotton  Mercerized cotton line size 30.

 

Rob

[EdT]

Thanks everyone.

 

Paul, I appreciate the difficulty of visualizing many of the lines and will try to put arrows where it will be helpful.  Living with this everyday, it is easy to underestimate  the difficulties.

 

Johann, I looked at your post with the thread.  I am not familiar with that brand of linen and would like to know the name.  It looks good, fairly tightly wound.  Some fuzz, but this may be removed after the rope is made by passing the line slowly through an alcohol flame, a process called "gassing" in the thread industry.  The best test is to make some rope, dye it, gas it, then make a judgement.  With linen, slubs are the big problem.  None are visible in your photo.  I use quite a bit of DMCcotton  thread and like it.  It is somewhat softer than the other brand I use, Fincrochet.  I use these interchangeably in sizes 100, 80, 60, 40 right off the spool and to make larger ropes. All get dyed and passed through the flame - twice.  The numerous 3" lines on my model are DMC 40.  The 1 1/2" ratlines are Fincrochet 80 - for example.

 

Rob, thread sizing is nightmarishly complex with numerous systems.  You may wish to research thread measurement online.  There are several good explanations.  Generally the larger the number the smaller the thread.  Sometimes the number of plies is shown, for example 100/3 or 60/2.  Measurement is the best bet.  Wrap 10 turns evenly around a dowel, measure the overall width with calipers and divide by 10 to get the diameter. This is more accurate than trying to measure a single thread.  I used a lot of small mercerized cotton-polyester on my Victory model and after 10 years it looks the same.  I believe polyester is for strength and cotton for the finish.  Polyester may be less susceptible to the effects of moisture than natural fibers.

 

Ed

[rwiederrich]

Thanks Ed...good advice.

I was looking at your examples, on your ship and an example of the material I have, and it is quite small...and I too realize the larger number generally means the smaller size....but in this case it is confusing, because anything smaller then the 30 I have is going to be really tiny stuff....

 

So for comparisons sake...the average size you generally use...wrapped around a dowel 10 times, divided by 10 measures out to be what?  So I can compare.

 

Thanks again.

 

Rob

[EdT]

For example, Rob: 10 turns of DMC40 cotton thread measures .135", divided by 10 the thread diameter is .0135" which at 1:72 converts to 72 x .0135" =.972", times 3.14 (pi) this equares to a circumference, ie rope size, of 3.05", so I use this thread for 3" rope - about the average size.  Keep in mind that measurement error makes all these sizes approximate, but certainly adequate for modeling.

 

Ed

[archjofo]

Hello Ed,

this linen yarn comes from Sweden, and is called "Bockens Lingarn".
Here LINK are more information.

Edited September 21, 2018 by archjofo

[capnharv2]

Ed,

 

Earlier you said "Only lines 4" and above on my model use made rope."  I was wonder earlier, is this 4" diameter or 4" circumference?

 

I prefer working with diameters, but am aware that circumference was used historically

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Harvey

[EdT]

Circumference.  Rope size was always expressed in inches circumference - in rigging tables, drawings, documents, etc. so that is the common usage.  It would also be easier to measure with a length of string or tape in the absence of calipers.  Measuring circumference is impractical at model sizes, so diameter is used to measure of threads and ropes - with conversions to circumference to relate to sizes in tables and other rigging documents and to apply common rules of thumb for relationships between, say for example, rope size and block size.

 

I should clarify my comment about only rope 4" and above being "made".  I should have said that all rope 4" and above is made - that is, spun into rope from threads.  I actually do use made rope in some smaller sizes that fit between common the common thread sizes.

 

Ed

[rwiederrich]

Yikes...I must have measured my 10 wraps incorrectly......

I was not wanting to compress the rope so I cam up with   .155".  Making my rope at a scale of 1/128 to be around 6.22" rope.  that's ginormous.....

 Maybe I need to make my first caliper reading a bit snugger?

At your scale of 1/72 that makes about a 3.5" line.

 

Rob

Edited September 22, 2018 by rwiederrich

[druxey]

You may need to take an average reading between uncompressed and maximum compression, Rob.

[Bob Legge]

Rigging sizes

Noel C L Hackney in HMS Victory Classic Ships No 1 by Airfix, 1970 gives a variation on method of calculating sizes (counting rather than measuring).

 

He made marks on a pencil  1 inch apart. He then wound the line around the pencil, counting the number of turns to fill 1 inch. Calculating back (or using a small spreadsheet) gives the circumference.

His results as printed for Airfix Victory - Scale 173

Thread or line size                               TPI     Rope size (inches) Scale 173

12 lb 3-strand nylon salmon line             38          14

No 12 Super Gimp                                40         13 1/2 

No 50 synthetic                                    60          9

No 24 merc cotton/No 70 synthetic        70          7 1/2

No 90 synthetic                                    80          7

No 16 waxed                                        85          6 1/2

No 24 waxed / No 36 merc cotton          90          6

No 40 merc cotton                               100         5 1/2

No 110 synthetic                                  104        5 1/4

No 120 synthetic/No 120 spun tereline   110        5

No 60 soft cotton                                 115        4 3/4

No 140 synthetic/75 denier teryline      120        4 1/2

Monofilament nylon fishing line         0.2 mm      4

Monofilament nylon fishing line         0.175 mm  3 1/2

Monofilament nylon fishing line         0.15 mm    3

Monofilament nylon fishing line         0.1 mm      2

 

He first states "the diameter of threads  ... is not related to the thread number shown on the reel except in the most general way. That number is simply the count of how many hanks of that thread of a given length are needed to total a given standard weight, and it therefore follows that two threads of the same number can differ considerally in thickness if their basic material (cotton/man made fibre) of their treatment (waxed / mercerised) makes a variation in their weight per yard. Thus the standard No 40 cotton, No24 waxed thread and No 110 synthetic are almost the same thickness".

 

Regards,

 

Bob.

 

[EdT]

Rob, your measurement of .155 for 10 turns, if it is a No. 30 thread sounds about right to me.  My measurement of DMC 40 by this method is .135" and .17" for DMC 20.  All to be divided by 10 of course.  At 1:72, I use DMC40 for 3" line and DMC20 for 3 3/4".  Some suggestions:  the turns should touch but not overlap, the tension should be about what you expect on the model - snug but not overly tight.  I use a 1/2" dowel.  The best way to increase accuracy is to increase turns - 10 happens to be convenient and I believe sufficient.  You are correct in not compressing the turns with the calipers.  I have a lot of thread, so if you tell me the thread you are using, I would be happy to measure it for comparison with your measurement.

 

We should be careful here not to get hung up on precision.  Proportionality to the model and consistency between rope model rope sizes is more important than absolute precision.  All these measurements will be approximate, as will assignment of a particular thread size to a model rope size.  A 3" rope should look about half the diameter of a 6" rope.

 

At 1/128 scale. the smallest lines, say 1 1/2" ratlines, will be only .004" diameter.  The smallest thread I use is 100 crochet cotton that I measure at .008" - this would be about right for a 3" line at 128 scale.  I have some Coats T1 and T4 mercerized polyester that I have measured at .004" and could be used for your ratlines, but it would have to be de-fuzzed.  

 

Assignment of thread or made rope  to model rope sizes takes some time, some judgement, and some compromise so that the lines look right in relation to each other and in the right proportion to the model itself. 

 

Ed

[dvm27]

Just curious Ed. Have you ever tried working with silk? There are Navy Board models in Annapolis with original silk rigging. Surgical silk can be had in very small diameters (ex. 6-0 silk = 0.1 mm diameter). I've used it for ratlines and it worked very well.

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, EdT said:

Rob, your measurement of .155 for 10 turns, if it is a No. 30 thread sounds about right to me.  My measurement of DMC 40 by this method is .135" and .17" for DMC 20.  All to be divided by 10 of course.  At 1:72, I use DMC40 for 3" line and DMC20 for 3 3/4".  Some suggestions:  the turns should touch but not overlap, the tension should be about what you expect on the model - snug but not overly tight.  I use a 1/2" dowel.  The best way to increase accuracy is to increase turns - 10 happens to be convenient and I believe sufficient.  You are correct in not compressing the turns with the calipers.  I have a lot of thread, so if you tell me the thread you are using, I would be happy to measure it for comparison with your measurement.

 

We should be careful here not to get hung up on precision.  Proportionality to the model and consistency between rope model rope sizes is more important than absolute precision.  All these measurements will be approximate, as will assignment of a particular thread size to a model rope size.  A 3" rope should look about half the diameter of a 6" rope.

 

At 1/128 scale. the smallest lines, say 1 1/2" ratlines, will be only .004" diameter.  The smallest thread I use is 100 crochet cotton that I measure at .008" - this would be about right for a 3" line at 128 scale.  I have some Coats T1 and T4 mercerized polyester that I have measured at .004" and could be used for your ratlines, but it would have to be de-fuzzed.  

 

Assignment of thread or made rope  to model rope sizes takes some time, some judgement, and some compromise so that the lines look right in relation to each other and in the right proportion to the model itself. 

 

Ed

Ed....I remeasured with slight compression and was able to achieve .140.   it looks right for 1/72 scale, but my GR at 1/128...I'll surely need smaller.  I did find several spools of 100 silk....I might look into that. 

 

Thanks for everything.

 

Rob

Edited September 23, 2018 by rwiederrich

[EdT]

Hi Greg,

 

I have not used silk, but I am aware of it.  If my math is right .1mm = (.1mm/25mm/inch)= .004" or at 1/72 slightly less than 1" rope.  I don't have anything that small, so it does not help me much for rope.  I have thought about it for lashing, serving and seizing, but have not tried it.  Is their also an issue with life?  I thought I read or heard that somewhere.

 

Rob, if what you think "looks right" doesn't agree with reasonable measurements, I would be cautious.  But that's me.

 

Ed

[EdT]

Young America - extreme clipper 1853
Part 300 – Rope Coils

 

I had to take a break from rigging the yards to work on rope coils because access for fitting these is becoming daily more obstructed.  Each of the 200 or so belayed lines on the model requires a coil of excess rope to be laid over the pin.  It is not practical to use the actual excess line for these, so each ids being made separately and glued over the pin and belayed line.  The first picture shows the simplest arrangement in which the coil is merely laid over the pin.

 

 

In poring over many photos of old clipper ships, this seems to have been the dominant method – without too much care or uniformity applied.  While simple to make there are disadvantages.  In the picture a sample line is belayed behind the rail – not possible for most lines – making the draping of a large coil awkward, especially for many closely spaced pins like those on the model's main pin rails.  My preference has been to use the method shown in the next picture, taken on the Joseph Conrad at Mystic Seaport.

 

 

In this configuration, commonly used today, the line is belayed with a number of crossover turns on the pin.  A coil is then made of the excess rope.  The line between the pin and the coil is then pulled through the coil, given a twist, and placed over the pin.  The result is a neat coil that takes up minimum space on the rail.  However, I was not prepared to adopt this method because of its absence from early photos – until I came across the next picture, taken in the early 1870's.

 

 

This method is clearly used – none too neatly I may add – on the pins at the right and further back – along with a variety of coil types.  This was sufficient evidence.  After making a few of these by the method described above and fitting them over pins in confined spaces, I concluded that my life expectancy would not be sufficient to make and fit the required number, especially if my sanity became impaired.  So, I decided to make them in the following way, yielding a similar but slightly different appearance.

 

In the first picture a length of line was wrapped around a strip of Teflon and looped under itself to form a single hitch as shown in the next picture.

 

 

After pulling the hitch tight to hold the coil, the line was passed under the loop again and another looped hitch formed leaving the loop to the left in the next picture.

 

 

This loop on the left will go over the pin, being secured by pulling the line on the right to tighten the looped hitch.  The final tug on this line was made after the coil was removed from the strip and fitted to a pin rail fixture as shown below.

 

 

The coil on the right is about to be pulled up to look like the one on the left.  The next picture shows six of these on the fixture. 

 

 

These have been wetted for pliability and touched with wood glue at the knot.  When dry, they can be slipped off, the excess ends clipped, and fitted into place.  It takes less than two minutes to make one of these, which suits me just fine.  The coils are matched to the rigged line sizes and consist of the amount of rope to be expected given the configuration of each line.  The last picture shows installation of these on the foremast fife rail and forward main pin rail.

 

 

 

Only close inspection will reveal the extra knot.  I am now trying to install these as each line is finally tensioned and the belayed loops glued.  The forward pin on the port rail is for the lazy tack, which is still kept loose until the lower course sheets are rigged – so no coil yet..

 

 

Ed

[druxey]

A very nice and neat simulation, Ed!

[michael mott]

Nicely done Ed.

 

Michael

[albert]

Fantastic work Ed.

[Amalio]

Fantastic Ed.