Making sails

[Harry12]

Hello everyone,

My name is Harry, And I have run aground with my latest project,
The black Pearl (scale 1:48).

Although she is not from wood, she is actually made of Lego bricks. Nevertheless I intend to fully rig her like a proper model ship. (ropes are already on their way) However after some trial and error I’m a bit stuck when it comes to the sails. You see I am a big fan of accuracy I want them to look how they did in the film. The patched up version from Films 2 and 3 specifically

This is the first time I am making sails and I will probably have to make a few more when I get around to work on my other ships. The first time I tried to make sails with Linen as fabric however it shines through too much, even after dying the textile you could basically see the entire masts through the sails itself which isn't something I want. 

So I am looking for a fabric that is suited for making sails, looks accurate in scale, but is not see through, is easy to stitch and dye. Or if it is see through and you have a way to make it not transparent then I will also be interested in that. I visited a huge fabric store here in the Netherlands a few days ago but none of the fabrics really suited my needs. Because I don’t know which fabrics are suited for this task and how to apply certain techniques to achieve my desired results.

I also am looking for clear instruction on how to make sails in general. I have watched some YouTube tutorials particularly from Olha Batchvarov. But she did not do the extra layers of fabric on top of the sails. The curved lines that go over the sails edge (I don’t know the technical terms of this)

So if you  have anything that can help me than please do not hesitate to reply

[Gregory]

Here is a nice topic that talks about making sails.  No reason it shouldn't work well for any sail making project.

 

 

[Jaager]

This is obviously opinion and not from any book of laws:

 

This is for any visitors attracted to your title.

It is not really what you are after.

 

"There is a problem - an unavoidable barrier - with any kit supplied sails.  The numbers are huge against any materiel that a kit manufacturer can afford to supply being anywhere close to the canvas being in scale. 

If this is important to you,  but you wish to display sails - a fabric like paper - SilkSpan for example - will get you much closer to realistic.  This is a scratch project - but one requiring almost no additional expenditure on tools.  Being paper,  you can practice and discard as much as is needed.  Instructions abound here and in a SeaWatch publication."

 

You started with linen - actual flax?

As I understand it - the hierarchy is fibers -> yarn -> thread -> rope

Linen yarn at its smallest is about where cotton thread is at its smallest. 

Cotton - made with expensive long fiber starting will be the finest and may be as close to scale draping behavior as any actual cloth gets - it has a special name that I have lost.  Even this may be too translucent for your specifications.

 

Thought experiment:

 

How about using SilkSpan - the thickest of the three choices  (This is flying aircraft models centric materials so their vendors may be a place to look.)

Bookbinders pH neutral PVA will bond paper and dry clear.

You can glue up layers of paper to get the patched effect that you want.

If it is too translucant,  high quality smallest grain oil paint - Rembrandt, Grumbacher, or something similar - oil because water base will affect the paper -

thin ( turp or minieral spirits. Do not know if linseed oil needs to be a part but having it will probably speed drying/polymerization)  start with a white base and tint with whatever color gets to aging effect desired.  Add layers of paint until it is opaque enough.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Jaager

[Gregory]

There was no mention of a kit or kit supplied sails.

 

40 minutes ago, Jaager said:

How about using SilkSpan

The technique in the  link I provided uses SilkSpan.

[allanyed]

8 hours ago, Harry12 said:

I am looking for a fabric that is suited for making sails, looks accurate in scale,

As mentioned above, go with silk span.   There is no cloth in existence that is to scale for sails unless there is a material with a thread count (TC) over 2400 assuming you want to replicate rough canvas which has a TC of about 50.

 

There is a booklet on making sails that you can purchase for $5 from Sea Watch books. https://seawatchbooks.com/products/swan-iv-sail-making-supplement-from-the-revised-and-expanded-edition-by-david-antscherl

Edited November 23, 2023 by allanyed

[Capt. Kelso]

Here's similar technique but I find the video format easier to follow.

Making Sails for Ship Models from Silkspan, Parts 1 & 2.  Tom Lauria, YouTube

[Auger]

Anyone know if there is an alternative material for Silkspan? I can’t seem to find it over here, will keep searching but I haven’t found an EU vendor yet.

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, Auger said:

I haven’t found an EU vendor yet.

It is mostly used for old school doped paper covered flying models.  I do not know the magic search terms needed to find their suppliers in EU.

a Google search turned up and article in a 2019 Ropewalk that said that @MrBlueJacket sourced a similar product from a European supplier - perhaps he may provide you a link?

Edited November 23, 2023 by Jaager

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, Auger said:

Anyone know if there is an alternative material for Silkspan?

I THINK Eberhard (Wefalck) may be able to help you. PM him and hopefully he will have a contact for you

Allan

[Cathead]

You could also consider paper. Here's a thread I started years ago to share a method I developed that I personally think works well, looks good, and is much preferable to working with fabric of any kind.

 

Here's what the sails look like on one of my models:

 

Don't know if this would work for you, I haven't seen the movie so don't know exactly what look you're going for, but it's another option.

 

[Twokidsnosleep]

You are a bit ahead of me in build stages as I am making a 1/72 plastic Black Pearl.

Planning to use the plastic sails as templates and make some tattered dyed fabric sails

I got some sail material from Amazon to make them...away at work so will let you know what it was

[Harry12]

Thank you everyone for the many replies. After some consideration I don’t think its necessarily bad if the sails are too thick, As many of you know LEGO is quite a thick building brick in itself. So think the thin model span sails would look a bit out of place on this vessel. A smaller boat may have been more suitable. But this is a huge ship about 90 cm in length and 80 cm in height. Which is to minifigure scale. So I feel like going into the real details like thread count, isn’t the greatest idea as everything will look out of scale on this model anyways. For example, the masts according to my calculations they should be right but they look too big and go to high but it is how it’s supposed to be.

It may also help to tell you about my first time making sails. The first sets of sails I made were in fact from pure white linen, a material that was rather translucent. Even after dyeing the fabric. What I did was Firstly I made a sail template digitally in Illustrator (see picture), then I painted a layer of diluted wood glue on top of the fabric making it rather stiff, so that it was easy to cut. I then traced everything from the template onto the fabric using carbon transfer paper and then cut everything out with a fabric scissor and a rotary cutter. I then cut the extra parts that go on top of the sails (which is what the curved and straight strokes are on the template) glued on the extra layers of fabric on the edges of the sails, letting them dry then the next day I dyed them using Dylon dye intense black, well it was anything but Black it became intense grey…. After that I had to put them in the dryer according to the instructions which made the fabric shrink….Oh and all the extra patches of fabric started to get lose after so yeah I learned a lot from this process but I’d like some tips as to not repeat or find any new stupid mistakes I am bound to make.

It just drives me nuts that others are able to get some fabric that isn’t translucent or make them so they aren’t translucent like on proper ship models here on the forum as well as Museum pieces. And that whatever I do I just can’t seem to get the same result. Perhaps I’m putting the bar way to high for my first time for ever doing this sort of thing.

[rwiederrich]

Paper sails have a wonderful translucency to them...and they're very easy to make....

 

Rob

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

The main problem I have with paper sails is that they they bend easily in only one axis, and have almost no belly, which is essential for models of the early 17th century.  Cloth sails can be stretched in two directions, and held in shape with starch.  The course grain of cloth can be overlooked, but improper or unrealistic shape can not.

Edited November 30, 2023 by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS

[Cathead]

If you make paper sails from individual panels, as I did in my method links above, you could build in belly the same way actual sail designers did, by introducing subtle curves to the panels so that, when their edges are joined, they form a curve. 

 

And I'd have to disagree that coarse cloth grain is more easily overlooked than improper shape. Proper shape is pretty subtle for an average viewer, whereas coarse cloth is blatantly visible throughout the sail.

[Gregory]

19 minutes ago, DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:

The course grain of cloth can be overlooked,

Depends on who is looking..

[modeller_masa]

The silkspan is the brand marketing name of an original paper that was invented in China in the B.C. 50s. The modern paper we use every day is refined by machine and chemicals. The old and original paper have low density and higher tensile strength.

 

The original paper is so popular in the East Asia region. Asians use the original paper for many purpose, such as windows and wallpaper. I can find and buy the silkspan paper at every stationery shop in South Korea. The original paper has different name by country. - Chinese paper in China, Korean paper in Korea, Japanese paper in Japan, or Japanese rice paper, etcs.

 

Wefalck introduced industrially refined original paper made by a German company. The refined paper is optimized for the model project; longer fibers and evenly patterns.

 

I guess it is hard to find the original paper in the Western region, The different names may help you find the "Silkspan". (When I saw the word first, I purchased "silk and span fabric," literally. 😆 )

[toms10]

I make mine out of silkspan. As mentioned earlier, material is a bit too much out of scale at most scales used especially if you are going to use a sewing machine for seams. 
 

There are some basic instructions on how I make them on my Leopard and currently in progress Morgan builds. Dre the links in my signature. 
 

Tom

[Baker]

On 11/23/2023 at 5:26 PM, Harry12 said:

The first sets of sails I made were in fact from pure white linen

If you use linen, you can rub the sails with beeswax.
This makes the linen less "fluffy" and a bit stiffer.

And yes. Linen sails are actually a little too thick for this scale (1/45) 

[rwiederrich]

Using the correct tools you can create the *belly* of a sail.  I used the steal ball rounding tool...that fondant flowers are made with....a tool used by cake bakers to make cake flowers. 

 

Drawn across and rolled, I was able to form the billowing belly of my sails.  With paper.  Not all the sails are treated this way to provide a natural inconsistency in sail activity.

 

Rob

[Harry12]

Hi guys!

 

I want to thank you all for your contributions! this certainly helps me out a lot. However to dissapoint some of you due to the holidays, shipping has slowed down and unfortunately I can start gathering materials like paint, cloth etc in the new year. so you won't hear from me for a while. But when she is finished I will definitely let you guys know!

 

Cheers!

harry

[GrandpaPhil]

I like to use muslin to make my sails for anything larger than 1/72 scale.

 

I think it looks good.

That’s how they came out for my Hannah and my Prince de Neufchatel.