HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74-gun 3rd Rate Man of War - Arrogant-Class

[AON]

תודה על המילים החמות.

 

אני מוצא את הפורום הזה

 

מאוד מועיל. כל החברים 

מאוד נותנים!

.Thank you for the kind words!  I find this forum to be very helpful.  All members are very giving!

[druxey]

Well, congratulations on your new toys. As was pointed out, the quality remains long after the cost is forgotten. 

[Thistle17]

Alan these tools in some respects cost more than my full sized versions which date back to the 1990s. As David says I never looked back they are a joy to use and quite frankly are priceless! Saw dust on!!!

Joe

[Kevin Kenny]

Alan 

i am very envious of your thickness sander. It is one of the last expensive tools to be purchased for my shop. I still have a Preac sander so cant justify replacing it as yet. But one day. The Byrnes table saw is simply the best small  table saw in the world. There is nothing even close to it.

kevin 

[AON]

I don't like to waste money replacing perfectly good filters.

But the design of these pleated filters with crossing cardboard retainers makes it difficult to vacuum the filter clean even with a crevice tool.

So I modified it.

Removing the cardboard cross pieces and replacing with a removable thin wire screen (to assure the pleated filter doesn't fall out) increased the open area by 19% (increasing filter efficiency) and makes access for cleaning much easier.

Quite an improvement if I do say so myself.

[AON]

Year end update?

My build progress to date:

Only a few frames to go.

If you've been following you know I've also worked on the figurehead, bowsprit, jib boom and associated yards, the rudder and the main mast and tree.

 

But I am again distracted.

I volunteered my time to make a donor wall display for our local library.

 

They wanted something like this.

 

But I proposed this.

 

And I am presently sanding the leaves (yuk).  The edges have been bevelled (45°).  They will be stained (3 different stains for variety) and sealed.

I made card stock templates to locate the hangers so they each dangle at their proper angle.

2" synthetic manila rope for the main branch, 1" for the off shoots to be spliced in.

2 ounce waxed whipping will be used for the sailmaker's whipping to finish the one base end and common whipping for everything else to keep things tiddly!

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by AON

[AON]

As I am staining the leaves for the Library display I cannot afford to stir up any sawdust from my shop so I decided to go back to my computer and work on my made fore and mizzen masts.... but before I start that I modelled my 1/2 pound (1-1/2" bore) swivel gun for my fore and main tops (platform).  Originally I saw these as 16 inches long but that was from one reference, a Battlefield 18th century swivel gun manual printed in 2016.  Lewis and Clark had a 1-3/4" bore 22" long barrel swivel gun in 1804.  It's just that everyone I talk to suggests naval guns we scaled down in size so my 1/2 pdr would be 27 to 30 inches long following that train of thought.

 

 At 1:64 scale that makes it just under a 1/2" long!

Now to see if they can be resin printed as my other cannons were done.

Edited December 22, 2021 by AON

[AON]

I completed my mast calculations and came to the conclusion that, once again, Mr. Steel and his rules do not agree with his plates of tables and scaled diagrams.  Knowing no one will be taking a measuring rule to my build the yard will likely be applying the "good enough" rule.

 

PDFs of my calculations and a summary spreadsheet are attached for those interested.

 

My mast, trees and tops drawings are in progress and will be posted later.

 

AND... one of our local club members agreed to 3D Resin print my swivel guns from my model! (fingers crossed that they turn out wonderfully)

 

Hope everyone had a safe Christmas holiday.... and have a safe New Years celebration.

 

 

 

mast dims summary - spreadsheet.pdf Lower Mast Calculation.pdf

Edited December 29, 2021 by AON

[BANYAN]

That's an interesting result; I have not had the need to use Steel for my calculations.  Thanks for the head's-up on this.

 

I think you are quite safe in your build decisions unless you run into a 'rivet counter'

 

cheers

 

Pat

[druxey]

I'm sure that there were many variances from spec, particularly in wartime. As long as it looks right....

[mtaylor]

Considering the Bellerophon was built by a contracted yard and not a Royal yard, it's quite possible there's things that don't match up to the normal specifications and dimensions.

[AON]

I suppose she simply needed to pass periodic inspections during the build and so long as she was sound and not less than the specifications she was " good enough"!

[mtaylor]

2 hours ago, AON said:

I suppose she simply needed to pass periodic inspections during the build and so long as she was sound and not less than the specifications she was " good enough"!

Exactly.   She sat on the stocks for quite a long time between building and launching.  I don't remember who did the yards and masts on her,  I would think it would be a navy yard but possibly not.

[AON]

My lower mast tribulations:

 

I had previously made my lower main mast as per Steels, Mast Making (1794), Volume 1.1, Tables (dimensions) and plates (drawings) 2 and 3.

I began creating my fore and mizzen lower masts using calculations from formulae in the same publication while referencing plates 2 and 3.  This is when confusions began to arise.  Some calculation did not agree with the table figures and the figures did not completely agree with the descriptions.  For example, the bibs and cheeks are smaller on the drawing then as calculated.  Similar dimensional differences were realized with the main top (platform).

 

So I had to employ "artistic license" and massage the drawing so the two smaller masts didn't outshine the main mast that I'd already made.

Then came the length of the front fish.  Steels plates clearly show them extending below the orlop deck on the main mast, and not so clearly on the foremast for a 74 but quite clearly on a 36 gun ship, so I added it on my 74 foremast.  However there doesn't seem to be a front fish on the mizzen mast.

 

I checked other builds and most don't have this type of detail, or they show the improved shortened and narrowed paunch that came to be about a decade later.

 

I checked my books, the  Anatomy of Nelson's Ships by Longridge shows the short narrow paunch from a decade later.  AOTS Belona by Lavery (figures H) shows no front fish or paunch at all.  Masting and Rigging OESOW by Lee, which are observations on historic models, (section 1, Part 1, page 2) disagrees with Steels plates, stating the length of the older style front fish or paunch on the masts stopped above the upper deck. Then (page 3) states the mizzen mast was not fitted with a front fish as a permanent fitting, but did have a rubbing paunch (?).

I decided to make all my lower masts similarly.  My mizzen mast being so much smaller would have a less prominent front fish.  I also continued my woolding hoops to just above the partners (upper deck) on the mizzen mast, not as shown in Steels.

 

For those interested, below are my drawings for my lower foremast, mizzen mast and their tops.   My drawings print on 8-1/2" x 11" (A size) sheets of paper and are at 1:64 scale.  Each mast drawing is on two sheets that need to be taped together.  The "splice line" is clearly identified.

fore top layout.pdf mizzen top layout-Model.pdf Foremast Cheeks+Fish+Bands - sh 1 of 2.pdf Foremast Cheeks+Fish+Bands - sh 2 of 2.pdf Foremast Layout - sh 1 of 2.pdf Foremast Layout - sh 2 of 2.pdf Mizzen Mast Cheeks+Fish+Bands - sh 1 of 2.pdf Mizzen Mast Cheeks+Fish+Bands - sh 2 of 2.pdf Mizzen Mast Layout - sh 1 of 2.pdf Mizzen Mast Layout - sh 2 of 2.pdf

[Dowmer]

Marvelous and clear work Alan. I especially appreciate the drawings and information you produce and freely post for others. It’s people like you that really make this site and hobby enjoyable. Thank you. 
 

btw, what software do you use to draft and draw your masts and other items?

[AON]

Thank you for the kind words Dowmer.

 

As I am retired now, and on a budget, I use the cheapest version of  DraftSight for 2D drawings, for which I received a notice that if I did not renew for the next year I would loose out as they are no longer offering that level... I guess I am grandfathered in until they decide that no longer counts.  Originally this was free.  Nothing lasts forever when there is a buck to be made.  For 3D modelling I use the free hobbyist version of Fusion 360. 

[AON]

All my staining and sealing of the library donor wall leaves is done.  So I've begun the rope work, making the tree branches with 1" and 2" rope, sailmaker's and common whipping of the cut ends underway with 2 oz. waxed twine.  So that is keeping me busy.

 

I had to remove a few of my frames on my build as they weren't quite right and I felt I could do better.  Presently assembling the dead flat frame.

 

I had attended the NRG seminar on table saw safety and Kurt had showed us a simple thickness guide for the Byrnes table saw.  I had also attended a virtual meeting of the Society of Model Shipwrights (UK) and John Garnish had showed us his version that employed separating the key lock from the guide adjustment locks.  His guide had a wheel on it where as Kurt's had a "point" and was reversible.

 

So I was inspired to blend the two and below is what I came up with.  Kurt announced that the NRG will be selling their simplified version on their website at some time in the near future.  I will be buying one to see how mine measures up.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by AON

[AON]

Well it has taken me quite awhile but I have finally arrived to this milestone.

The last two frames went in early this morning... and everything looks much better.

Now to finish marking off the gun port locations, install chocks, etc., etc....

 

[druxey]

Congratulations on achieving this milestone, Alan!

[BANYAN]

Slow or not, you got to tis major milestone.  All is looking good.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Kevin Kenny]

Congratulations on completing this major milestone. My advice to you is to strengthen the inside of the model by using PVA and sticking a batten from the bow to the stern at the  very inside top of the frames. If you can get a second one in further down also do so. This will tighten up all the frames . Now you can sand and shape the outside of the hull getting rid of any high or low spots.

[AON]

Thank you Druxey, Pat and Kevin.... and others for the "likes".  It is encouraging to see people are interested even though I move quite slowly.

 

As I've just completed my third day of recovery following another needle in the eye I am now allowed back in the shop to make dust.

 

Before I do that, my plan is to pencil mark all the remaining gunports (triple checking deck heights) so I can install chocks (spacers between the frames) above and below them.  When this is done the whole works should be quite stiff but I will also install a a couple cross braces athwartships on a couple top timbers for additional support.  That is when I will begin sanding inside and out... unless I decide to cut out the gunports first and install the upper and lower sills.  This might be the smart move as the locations will already have been marked in pencil and not sanded off only to need to be marked again.  I've got time to chew on this a bit.

[AON]

During my downtime I did some research into the ship's wheel.  Seems it was very much like the Victory's.  A double wheel with a tall fore pedestal and a short aft pedestal.

 

HMS Elephant plans (above)  and HMS Victory wheel (below)

 

So I drew it up to fit between my decks and forward of my mizzen mast.

 

Assembly between decks (above) and details (below)

Then I drew up some details so when I need a change I can chose to work on my fore or mizzen lower mast and trees, painting/asembling my 74 guns, or the ship's wheel.  It is nice to have options.

[AON]

So I am merrily moving along at a snails pace cutting thin strips with my new Byrnes table saw and installing chocks between frames when Flyer posts he noticed an issue with his bobstays interfering with his figurehead in his Bellerophon kit build.  The arm broke off of his and he glued it back but possibly not in the same position.  Even though his figurehead is different than mine I immediately thought I might have a similar problem and I'd best check.

 

So I installed my bowsprit and figurehead and dummied up a couple of bobstays and there it was, the lines were bent inwards at Pegasus' hooves and lower fore legs.

 

When I get the nerve to try and clean up the horse's head I'll thin down the hooves and legs.  I can possibly thin down the stem a little to help create minimal clearance.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by AON

[AON]

hmmm

I'm finding the bobstay on some models has the two parts of the one line served (wrapped) so that it is essentially one line.

This would mean it would clear.

Anyone know more about this?  I will keep looking.

Edited February 2, 2022 by AON
served - I originally wrote parcelled

[mtaylor]

Good that you caught this early.    As for what you're suggesting....I vaguely remember reading this somewhere.... I'll do some digging.

[druxey]

Yes, the legs of bobstays are lashed together. However, the leading edge of your knee of the head looks to be too 'fat'. Look at contemporary models' headwork on the RMG site, such as:

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-68158

 

While this example is a little earlier, the taper of the knee is typical also of later 18th century ships.

[AON]

The Fully Framed Model (6th Rate), vol 4, pg 44 - served all over

 

The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships (1st Rate), pg 226 - seized at the bight at the heart and another at the foreside of the hole at the in the knee and a third at half span between the other two.

 

Historic Ship Models, pg 276 - the two parts were seized together in several places

[AON]

Thank you Druxey.

I believe I tapered the stem from keel to knee per the dimensions in the contract but that was some time ago so it is worth checking again.

[flyer]

Following that great shared information here, I checked Lees again. On several illustrations, especially on nr 73, the lashed bobstays can be seen. After trying lashings on my Bellerophon the conflict between the bobstays and the figurehead could be solved without any bloodletting. And it looks much tidier now.

 

Thanks all.