HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74-gun 3rd Rate Man of War - Arrogant-Class

[garyshipwright]

3 hours ago, AON said:

The documents mentioned in my above posting are ADM 52/2752, ADM 52/2779 and ADM 52/3359.

I never thought there was anything but the 74 guns.  I never searched further once I found she wasn't on the list of ships issued carronades.

Then I discovered the swivel guns.

Now there are the carronades.

So short answer is no I hadn't but now I shall.

How did you know they mentioned the guns before got your hands on copies?  were they posted on PRO to read?

The info is in the History of English Sea ordnance by Caruana. On page 237 he gives the PRO WO 51-291 as his reference. He does state that Alfred had a complete set of Carronades as well, including  eighteen 9 pound carronades. He goes on to say Rare though it was, there was a 9-pdr carronade, but it was presumably a civilian piece never officially adopted by the Navy. I always look in the back of the book's to see what they use as a reference and try to get that reference. Some times  it work's  out, other times its out of range as far as the cost goes.    

Edited June 15, 2022 by garyshipwright

[Lieste]

A wrinkle.. for the intended date of 1786 - well several of them...
Bellerophon wasn't commissioned and fitted out until late summer 1790, seeing service for around one year before being paid off ("for the Spanish armament and Russian Armament").
Recommissioned in 1793-04 shortly after the declaration of war.

In 1783-03 the ships previously fitted with carronades on the f'csle and quarter deck had had them removed to ease the strain on their upper works - and it wasn't until the re-armament for war that the carronades were re-fitted.
So a build date of 1790-1791 would be armed, but only with carriage guns (possibly the 6 quarterdeck carronades?) (and possibly not fitted 'for' the f'csle carronade, though a space planned for the fitting, no 'port' is visible for the third ordnance on the 'as completed' drawing). Between 1791-1793 she was out of commission and likely unarmed. And from 1793, would (possibly) have the 'augmented' armament you indicate in your letter, and in accordance with the prior orders and the new AO of 1794 which confirmed those arrangements generally..

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uabcAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA71&dq=22+july+1782+carronades&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjroI3ZhbD4AhVOUMAKHaQ0AIkQ6AF6BAgLEAI#v=onepage&q=22 july 1782 carronades&f=false

I'm unsure how rigid this was... but it should be taken as the general order from which other variations flow from what I can see... when the carronades were re-issued (during the fitting of early 1793, or after the AO of 1794 is not clear, so for the most 'clear' picture I'd choose the date specified in your document, and build for that date or build her 'by establishment' with ports 'for' but not 'with' carronades on her roundhouse.

[mtaylor]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

You have a LOT of company.    Why bother posting dozens and dozens of "no image online" icons?  If it is to let us know they have them in storage, will they send these if requested individually in low resolution so one can decide which to purchase in high resolution?   I realize museums do not have deep pockets, and RMG is still an unbelievably great source for all of us, even with the changes.   Worse than the changes in the Collections is the fact that what few models they had on display were put in storage.  Maybe they put them back out, it has been a few years now, but if not I wonder what they put in their place.

 

Allan 

I would think that if (big if) they were interestred in customer service, the "no image online" should be expanded to a reference. Or, it's also possible that it's also acting as a place holder for future expansion.   Then again.... who knows?

[AON]

I can sleep well tonight.

 

I found one image of the 74 gun Illustrious in that era that has the gun ports in the same pattern as the 80 gun ship Lieste just sent me.  THANK YOU!

 

I will post images tomorrow as 4am to 10pm is a long day for me.

 

Good night all.

[AON]

Lieste had mentioned a figure in Winfield of an 80 gun ship with two carronades and four guns on the forecastle.  The only book I have by Rif Winfield is The 50-Gun Ship and the figure is not in that.

 

I found a copy of the very expensive (almost $500) book British Warships in the Age of Sail, 1793–1817: Design, Construction, Careers and Fates by Rif Winfield on Google that allowed viewing of a very few selected pages.  Lieste confirmed this was the book and he sent me the image which is of HMS Foundroyant launched in 1788.  THANK YOU! She also had the 6 carronades on the Roundhouse.  The count of 80 guns excluded the carronades.  They were extra.  Carronades were not counted unless they replaced guns.  What is really nice is the image shows a top view of the deck with the guns so there is no question as to their location.

 

Via Google I found an image of HMS Illustrious in the selected viewing pages of the book.  She is a 74 gun ship launched in 1799, and she has the extra ports on the forecastle for carronades.

 

I also found HMS Swiftsure of 1800, an 80 gun ship with the extra ports.

[garyshipwright]

Alan , Rif put out 4 books of the British Warships in the in the age of sail, one through 1603-1714, 1714-1792, 1793-1817.1817-1863, all of them have a ton of info on the British warship. I do believe that  he also join up with David Lyon to put out one on the Stream ships.  I went looking for his other books and talk about being very expensive, his 1603- 1714 would cost you $5899.97. Of course you could get one a lot cheaper  on Amazon for 734.99. 😭They sure are not getting any cheaper that's for sure. Gary

Edited June 16, 2022 by garyshipwright

[Mark P]

Good Morning Alan;

 

The archives at Kew also contain extensive records which came via the War Office, and are prefixed WO. These are all accessible via the search engine at Kew. WO 55/1830, 31 & 32 all contain lists of ships with particulars of ordnance, dating from 1793-1799. How thorough they are I do not know, but by this date normally quite a lot of info was recorded. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark 

[AON]

As it was nice out today I relocated to the patio.  Working on the lower fore and mizzen mast tops.

Also finished reading A History of Canada in Ten Maps by Adam Shoalts and was surprised by the last chapter describing John Franklin's three assignments to map the coastlines and islands of Canada's arctic.  He was a midshipman on the Bellerophon at Trafalgar.  The first was a disaster where many died and he and those few survivors almost starved to death.  If it weren't for the kindness of the local indigenous people he wouldn't be a footnote to history.  He managed his second assignment four years later (1825), but hadn't learnt his lesson from the first, how to be a team leader and listen to those who had survived the rigours of the wilderness of Canada.  Everyone knows how the last assignment (HMS Erebus and Terror 1845-47) ended, stuck in the ice, once again resulting in some resorting to cannibalism and starving and freezing to death.  The late great John Franklin was described by the survivor's of his first expedition as incompetent!      Interesting.

[AON]

I completed the other two lower mast tops (fore and mizzen).

Below are all three side by side with swivel guns temporarily installed on the main and fore tops.

Then I clamped them down onto my storage board with the rails protected against a secure upright block.  Put this into the cardboard box and put that into the box with my mast storage rack.  All safely tucked away.

[AON]

There seems to be as many ways to cut a gunport as there are ways to make mistakes.  I had to find a method I was comfortable with... this after all is my first time and I honestly wasn't looking forward to cutting holes into all this work I just got done.

 

After having tooled around long enough trying my hand at various methods of cutting the gunports I finally brought the ship outside and started cutting.  I decided to use a rotary combination drill-saw bit in the flex-cable of my dremel.  The bit has a drill cutter point and rotary cutting notches on the shaft.

It was plunged through at the centre of the square outline, holding a level and square as I could I cut up to within about 1/16" of my upper cut line (top of the upper cill) then changed direction left, then back to the right to free the top of the frames, then back to the middle, then down to within 1/16" of the bottom cut line (bottom of the lower cill)  then cut across to pop them off.

So far I've only been working on upper cills.  I wrapped sand paper over my 1/2" wide flat file and holding it level, I sanded to the upper and lower lines.  I then marked the thickness (height) of my upper cill onto the edge of the frames at each side so I knew where the notch had to stop.  I used my mini triangular file to sideways shape the upper cill notch.  This was cleaned up a bit with a sharp X-acto knife.  In the photo below you will see the sides need to be opened to get the proper opening width.

I then took my cill timber and cut it to a bit more than 1/8" the required length.  This was held to the opening and I pencil marked off the bottom distance of the notch to cut away.  This was cut away in bites with a chisel. Fitted to the opening and sanded to look right on a piece of sand paper laying flat on the table top.  The far side was then cut and shaped to fit likewise.  Below you will see it dry fitted.... almost there.

Then after some more fiddling about it slid into place.  Apply some glue. Assemble. Let sit 20 minutes to grip. Sand flush. Done. On to the next one.

I will post my lower cill installation when I've get around to having a few done and I can (of course) pick out a better looking effort.

(and yes... the aft gunports are a wee bit skewed as they should be! 🤪  )

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by AON

[Kevin Kenny]

Nice clean work

[AON]

Gun Deck upper cills done.

One lower cill done... and I am quite happy with it.

It is not sanded flush yet and will have to wait a few days as I'm off to the eye doctor for my 9 week visit.

Edited July 11, 2022 by AON

[bruce d]

Good luck with the doc.

Gunports look like scary stuff!

[AON]

Thanks.  Sitting in the office waiting now.

 

It was scary at first but, like everything else, after I managed the first one or two I felt better about it all.

[garyshipwright]

One thing for sure Alan, after the scary first one you get better at cutting them out.  For me I would cut a few each day, help's one from going insane, thank goodness. good job. 

[AON]

On this day in 1815 Napoleon surrendered to Capt. Maitland on board the Bellerophon.

[AON]

Gundeck done.

Upperdeck started with the plugs in lieu of the upper cill at the eight (4 per side) midships gun ports.  I will post a photo of that later today.

I made my top timbers thicker then needed because they are quite thin at 5-1/4, 5-1/2, and 6" deep (about 3/32" at 1:64 scale).  I was concerned I might damage them as they seemed fragile to me, so I now have some additional sanding to do.

 

Presently I am into hour 6 of 15 to 3D print the last part of my working mariners astrolabe. I'll likely create a build log in the 3D section for it.

[garyshipwright]

Hi Alan, Looking forward to seeing your photo update.  Gary

Edited July 27, 2022 by garyshipwright

[AON]

here are the stages

[garyshipwright]

Looking good Alan. Seems good sir you are getting them done a lot faster then I did.  Of course am  a slow poke. Just goes to show you after cutting the first one the rest are a piece of cake. Gary 

[SJSoane]

Alan,

 

Do I assume correctly that you are the author of the article in the recent Nautical Research Journal on the height gauge? Nicely done!

Your model is looking great. I was also quite nervous about cutting ports, but it got very easy after a couple. 

 

Mark

[AON]

YES! That is my height gauge.

Edited July 27, 2022 by AON

[AON]

I seem to be getting more done on her outside on the patio then when down in the dungeon.

[AON]

All gunports cutout and sills (cills) installed.

 

Looks as though I'll need to remove two top timbers for the carronades on the forecastle... but I'll get my final sanding done first.

[druxey]

Another milestone reached! Well done.

[AON]

Merci beaucoup mon ami.

🙄

It seemed a rather long haul.

[AON]

I am not certain how others manage but I left my frame timber tops thicker (molded depth) than what the contract called for as 3/32" is quite delicate and I am quite clumsy.  Now that I have the gunports in it was time to sand them to the proper thickness... but being a visual fellow I needed something to guide me.

 

Now some time ago Druxey had mentioned these were 6" wide.  Being so smart I looked at the contract and it read 5-1/2".

Now that I am wiser I re-read the contract and discovered they range from 4-1/2" (stern timber) to 6-1/4" (beakhead) with those in between being 5-1/4" or 5-1/2"molded depth.  And having some (albeit limited) experience I realise this is 0.070" to 0.0978 or a mere 1/64" difference... and no one is going to measure it on the model so I decided 3/32" nominal depth for all locations was acceptable.

(why do I question him?)

 

I cut strips of paper 3/32" (0.094 or 2.4 mm) wide.

Rubber cemented them to the top of the timbers so I could see the shape and thickness.

Sanded and removed the paper and residual cement.

Now I will be giving everything another sanding before I complete the framing at the stern.

 

Meanwhile (yesterday) I 3D printed my 32 Pound carronade barrel at 1:12 scale... another side project.

Edited September 6, 2022 by AON

[AON]

Started work on the side counter timbers on Saturday.  Tried again yesterday.  My third try today.

I made the blanks deeper today so I had something to hold and pin.

I also took a piece of pine 2x8 and made a support shelf to rest the timbers on.  Took me until today to imagine that.

I drilled and pinned these to the wing transom so I could transpose the hull outboard shape.

Then I pencilled in the molded depth

I will cut these shapes tomorrow to near the correct molded depth leaving something to sand.... because I enjoy sanding so much.

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by AON

[AON]

Cut, fitted and glued.

Also installed one filler each side.

I left lots of room for sanding.

[druxey]

I'm glad that you enjoy sanding, Alan, 'cos there is a lot of it! Getting the side counter timbers right is tricky. I don't know how they finessed it on the full size ship.