Bolt Heads on Brass Strips

[mikiek]

This has been discussed before and I have tried several of the suggestions but I am not getting the results I would like. I don't remember the name of the part but they are basically small metal straps for the cannonade on my Niagara build. I'm using the stock 1/16 x 1/64 brass strips that came with the kit.

 

All the straps are is strips varying in length from 1/4" to 1/2".  A hole is drilled near one end, a ring is added to the hole and the corners on that end are rounded down. Then the plan shows 1 - 3  bolt heads one 1 side.

 

I need to add that I am not painting these pieces. I am blackening them with the Blue Jacket product which works very well. The look and finish on the parts is excellent.

 

So, I have tried a dab of paint with a 000 detail brush. That looks a little too big and even with black paint the color looks odd on top of the blackened brass. Also the paint drop seems to flatten out while drying so I lose most of the relief I was looking for.

 

Obviously a dab of glue doesn't work (before or after blackening).

 

I'm beginning to wonder If I could glue a tiny fleck of brass on the strip and then try to blacken that. I think that might solve some of my problems and could look pretty good. The only issues that I see are

 

1. How to cut a piece of strip that small

 

2. When gluing the fleck, I can't allow any glue to get out on to the strip because it won't blacken there.

 

 

I am open to any other ideas or how to follow out the steps above.

[Landrotten Highlander]

suggestion:  why not use a brass rod of a diameter similar to the length of the diagonal of the bolt.  Drill a hole where the bolt is supposed to go.  insert the rod and fix (solder or glue).  Then carefully file the rod to the height and squareness you look for.

[jbshan]

It's a strap and ring to take the inhaul tackle?  I think I made a little slot in the back of the bed for an eyebolt and used a piece of paper for the strap.  You could use the slot and eyebolt as I did and maybe use a punch from the back to make a dimple to simulate the bolts on the strap.  It's pretty small, I just left off the bolts there and on the front curved plate.  The bolt heads might be as much as 1/128 inch (half inch in scale).

[mikiek]

Highlander - interesting idea. I can see that being used in many applications when it comes to the metalwork for this build. I am probably looking for something more like thick wire than a rod. 

 

jbshan - yes, that is the strap I am talking about. And you are right, bolt heads will be pretty small!

 

Along with being my first build, this is my first attempt at any metalwork. The pieces I am making now are pretty basic, but they came out nice and I enjoyed doing it.  Honestly, bolt heads on a 1/16 strip sounds a little extreme when you think about it. But if I can get details like that into this build it might make up for some of my shortcomings in other areas.

 

I would like to give the drop of paint idea 1 more try - since it is by far the easiest. I think I need to thicken the paint (Acrylic)  up so the drop doesn't flatten out. All I've ever done is thin paint. How would you thicken acrylic?

[thibaultron]

One of the model railroad suppliers sells Rivet Detail decals. These are clear film strips with raised rivet heads on the strip. No idea how they do the raised detail, but they look good when used.

[JPZ66]

You might wish to try photo-etched parts. Bolt heads and nuts come in a huge range of sizes. Some are available in nickle, stainless or brass. I quick search for scale model photo etched parts will turn up plenty for you to check out. Quite popular with car, railroad and armor modelers ! You can find them in round, square, hex and most sets include washers....

 

Joe

Edited December 8, 2015 by JPZ66

[BANYAN]

Mikie, you might also investigate using a punch and die set such as the one shown here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m4qaRcmXdU

 

There are several different versions from different companies; some use plastic card, others user a shim metal to create the shapes.  These are very realistic finishes but the punch/die sets can be a tad expensive - so you will need to evaluate how often you would use it.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited December 9, 2015 by BANYAN

[mikiek]

A nice set Pat - they also have a rivet punch set. Probably more in line with the 19th century. It seems pretty hard to find RP Toolz retailers in the States.

 

I did order a small disc punch set from Micro Mark today. I'll see what those look like. I suspect the rivet may be better looking. We'll see.

 

I'm not having real good luck turning up brass photo etched parts (I'm terrible at Google searches) although that still sounds like a good option.

[usedtosail]

I have used tiny drops of medium CA glue on painted metal surfaces to simulate bolt heads. I think that was in one of Chuck's tutorials for adding bolt heads to rudder pintles and gudgeons.

[mtaylor]

Mike,

Google this (without the quotes) "photo etch hardware".  Much of what is out there is for the RR, cars, armor, and aircraft stuff.  But it will work.  There's also several places that sell real honest to goodness nuts and bolts at very tine scales.

[mikiek]

I broke down and ordered the RP  Toolz  rivet punch set. It arrived today. VERY COOL! Just like most punch sets but these cut out a half domed shape piece. Looks a lot like a carriage bolt head. I don't know if something like that is accurate for the period but it looks a lot better than my first idea - hex nuts.

 

The set is well made - albeit pricey. Only down side I have seen is the hammer beats up the contact end of the punch (aluminum) a little bit. They say max material size is 0,3 - styrene, brass or aluminum. The smallest piece in the pic is the 0,9. The largest is 2,0. As you may be able to see the smallest possible piece is 0,6 which would be darn near impossible to pick up. I will try to blacken a few in the next day or so.

 

I can see lots of possibilities. I think it was a good pick-up.

[mtaylor]

Mike,

Would a rubber or wooden mallet be better?  At least it wouldn't damage the punch.

[mikiek]

I wondered about that Mark. Would I still get enough of a strike with the rubber insulating the blow. Also the size thing, the supplied hammer is about 3" long. I'll search around on the web and see if I can find something similar.

 

For sure I am going to have to do something.

[mtaylor]

That I'm not sure of, Mike.  I know there's also brass hammers available.   What are the punches made of?  If steel, then anything softer.. brass, wood, rubber.

[gjdale]

What about making a wooden cap or sleeve to go over the end of the punch? That might protect it a bit without losing the impact force. Very cool pick up by the way!

[rtropp]

Mike,

where did you get the set.  It is something I have been looking for and would be interested depending on the price.

 

Thanks,

Richard

[Altduck]

How about pressing the punch instead of whacking it?

 

The force required to shear small holes in soft materials can't be much.

 

One way might be to put a piece of bar stock in your drill press and use it like an arbor press.

 

Richard

[mikiek]

Mark - the punches are 2 parts. The pin shaped part that pierces the material is probably some sort of steel. That fits into a cylinder, which is the part you strike, and that is aluminum.

 

Grant - putting something on top of the punch is definitely a possibility

 

Richard (rtropp) - here's the link. The RP Toolz products are about half way down the page

 

Richard (Altduck) - pressing thru styrene would be easy. Personally I'm more interested in brass. It took about 5-6 whacks of the hammer to get thru a brass strip that is about 0,3 - 0,4  thick. I do have some thinner brass sheets on order. Pressing might be easier then.

[rtropp]

Mike, thanks for the link. I am experimenting with the leather punch on boxwood and painting with wrought iron and copper colored paint.  Not really crazy about that so I am thinking of investing in the RP punch.

As far as you can tell, will the business end of the punches hold up when used with metal such as copper or brass?

 

Thanks

Richard

[reklein]

I would like to recommend Vectorcut at www.vectorcut.com for some very fine laser cut details including some shipmodel parts such as ships wheels and decks not to mention bolts washers and hand tools in different scales.   Bill

Edited December 18, 2015 by reklein

[mikiek]

Richard - time will tell. My guess is that steel is pretty good. In the case of the rivets the tip of the punch has no sharp ends/edges to dull. I have seen a few reviews on the regular punch and the hex nut punch (nothing on the rivets) and people were pretty happy. Of course how much hard material and how much soft material they were going thru was not real clear.

 

My tests so far were using brass at the high end of the recommended width - probably why it took several whacks with the hammer to get the rivet. I have some thinner brass on order so I'll be interested to see if that takes a few less blows.

 

The biggest issue I am having is gluing the smaller rivets to a surface and then blackening them.  I was using CA and even applying with a straight pin, the glue spot is too big and that spot doesn't blacken.  This weekend I will punch a few, blacken them and then glue them to see if that is a realistic option. Several of the rivet sizes are smaller than a pinhead so I am skeptical about putting them thru the blackening first (and finding them afterwards), but we'll see.

[halbaby7]

You might try this. As a retired Master goldsmith and Gem cutter I often needed to glue semi-precious gem material into a precious metal mounting. What was needed was a glue that matched toe color of the stone. ie   onyx = black glue. Lapis= blue glue.  I used a semi fast set two part epoxy and added a small amount of powdered paint such as Tempera paints found at art stores.  Mix well and use a Very small point to 'pick up' a dab of colored glue and apply it where you want the rivit/bolt head. The epoxy will maintain a raised bump through curing. You will have to experiment a bit to get the droplet size right. Note to all, you can color epoxy glues this way and unlimited color palet by mixing colors. Good luck.

[mikiek]

I know this thread is a bit old now but I wanted to update on the hammer used with the punch set. The small metal one supplied with the set was beating up the end of the punches.  I recently got a rawhide mallet for some metal working and it works great for the punches. It's longer and slightly heavier than the original so it take a few less whacks to punch thru brass.

[rtropp]

Mike 

Good to know about the rawhide mallet.

As for the blackening, how do you think blackening the stock before making the disc would work? at worst only the edge should need blackening after that.  Also, when I blacken small parts, I put them on a white surface to help them stand out.

 

Richard

[Jaxboat]

Has anyone tried the railroad rivet decals that micro mark sells?

Best

Jaxboat

[mikiek]

Richard - as much as I love the blackening effect I am considering giving it up for parts that will have the rivet heads. I don't know if it is the same for all blackening products, but when I blacken anything with the Blue Jacket products, the blackening easily rubs off. Even just sitting on a paper towel.  When I pick up a part with tweezers ( a must for the rivet heads) metal to metal seems to always leave a scratch mark.

 

That said I did have some success with painting a coat of matte lacquer on blackened parts immediately after they are removed from the blackening agent and cleaned. I will give the pre-blackening with lacquer one more try and report back to you. In one respect it is a good idea as I wouldn't have to worry about the glue messing up the darkening.

 

FWIW - I have recently been painting brass with a Tamiya acrylic color called Dark Iron. It looks pretty good although I do miss the "crustiness" of the blackening process. Another Tamiya color called Black Rubber also looks good on brass.

 

When I was doing some of the carronade barrels, I ended up blacking, then painting (all I had was Tamiya Regular Black at the time) then lacquering.  That gave me the best of both worlds. A crusty surface with a more durable coloring.

 

So what I will try is blackening the base parts and the brass strip I use to punch rivets.

Painting the parts - probably with Dark Iron

Lacquering the parts with a flat finish

Punching the rivets

Gluing the rivets to the base parts

 

I am working on some metal pieces right now so I do have some parts to experiment with. I really like the look of the rivets on metalwork. So much so that I am adding more pieces than what the plan calls for. The latest addition I am working on is some metal straps with rivet heads to go around the fore and main top edges. The Niagara plan doesn't call for that, but I have seen some pix of other period brigs that do have it.

 

I need to get the process worked out because IMO nice looking metal work adds a lot of interest to the model. I've had several comments regarding the Niagara yawl (pix in my build log) where people were amazed at the detail and I think most of that was in reference to the additional metal parts I used in that build.

 

I can probably do this tonite so I will let everyone know the outcome.

[Canute]

For a much wider selection of decal details check out Archer Fine Transfers: http://www.archertransfers.com/index.html They do rivets, bolt heads, weld lines and many other items. Started to support the Armor folks, but now they do aircraft and model railroad stuff. Check them out. I'm not an owner, but I have used them. They do look good.

[mikiek]

Some not so great news regarding pre-coloring the rivet material and then punching them. It doesn't really help to pre-color.

 

Looked at under magnification the actual shape of the punched rivet starts out a cylinder closely followed by the more visible half dome. When you punch the colored material the dome part goes thru the die first and it keeps the color. However the cylinder portion must be scraping the edge of the hole in the die because it was back to brass when the piece comes out the bottom of the die.

 

I'm willing to try any other ideas, but it looks like I may be back to painting the assembled part.

[Altduck]

Wouldn't the "cylinder part" be the part that was the edges of the punched out plug, that was within the sheet and never colored to start with?

 

another Richard

[mikiek]

Richard - I wish I had a picture but the things are so darn small I can't get a good image.  They don't come this big, but for the sake of this discussion, let's say a rivet was 1/4" tall when viewed directly from the side. What you would see is the side going up maybe 1/16" and then the dome starts. The dome is colored nicely on most pieces but that 1/16" (which goes all the way around) lost the color.  Maybe most might not notice, but it does catch my eye.

 

I also did some eyeballing of 2 pieces one with blackened/lacquered parts the other just painted with the Dark Iron paint. The painted one looks pretty good. That's coming from someone that really likes blackened pieces.

 

I will keep trying.