Louie da fly
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It just keeps on coming - I'm on a roll! Trying out the prototype for the pavesade. Front view: Back view: The lower beam represents the gunwale - the uprights will be stuck in holes in the gunwale, in line with the oarbenches. And held in place by hand, to line up with the oarbench and the thole: Looks like it'll work - just enough room between the shields for the oars to move unhindered. So I'm happy to go ahead with this arrangement on the ship itself. Steven
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Hi to all from Tijuana MX.
Louie da fly replied to Sergio Camacho's topic in New member Introductions
Thanks for the photos. Looking forward to seeing your build log. When I was in Southampton UK about 11 years ago they had the whole upper floor of the Maritime museum there devoted to a Titanic display - it was the port she left from on her fatal voyage. I don't know if they'd still have the display, but the museum might be a useful source of information for your model, and perhaps could refer you to others. Just out of interest, is there anything in particular that drew you to make two models of the Titanic? Steven -
Thanks for the likes, people. Latest progress - stuck at home, so apart from the work needed around the house and garden I'm free to work on the model. Now I've got all the tholes glued in place: It certainly adds to the "look" of the model, but now I'm going to need to be more careful picking it up so I don't break anything. And now I've been able (finally) to get the relationship sorted out between the ship, the upper oars and the oarsmen, I've discovered that the first few oarsmen are the wrong shape - they have their legs extended too far, which means they can't fit properly between the oarbenches without their bottoms overhanging at the back: So I made another guy with his knees bent more (the one on the right - you can see the difference between him and the guy on the left): And he fits nicely: So I now have half a dozen oarsmen with the wrong legs: My first impulse was to toss them out and start again - but that would have wasted all the effort I put into modelling their heads, faces and torsos, which are totally ok. It's only from the waist down that they're wrong. So I'm going to cut each of them in two and make new "below-the-waist" bits for them. I can glue them together with a rod between them and everything should be hunky-dory. Next steps: 1. sort out how the oarsmen's arms are going to work - I'll use plasticiene (modelling clay) to get the shapes roughly correct, and then make some in wood and try them out. 2. Put in the oar-racks (vertical posts at each bench, between the side of the ship and the oarsman). 3. Make the pavesade (the support structure for the shields at the side of the ship). Not necessarily in the above order. 4. Once all that's done, I can get onto putting the upper oars in place. Each of these will take some practical experimentation, and quite a bit of work, so I won't be getting bored. Steven
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Mark, I'm very interested in the effects of oarblade shapes. I note that the blades of the Olympias were sort of leaf-shaped, (see 0.52 and onward at but ancient Greek representations of oarblades (usually on pottery) show them long and straight-sided: or short and straight-sided: many renaissance galleys seem to have had blades that tapered very gently and went quite a long way up the loom: similar to those shown in Byzantine representations: I'm very interested in the mechanics of all this - I wonder if there are any publications relating to it. [Edit: Silly me. Of course there are - a quick google search turned up this: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245524939_A_review_of_propulsive_mechanisms_in_rowing - very good for those of a scientific/engineering mind-set; not so much for people like me. The thing I'd really like to see is a a follow-up to this research, giving a scientific analysis comparing the performance of different-shaped oar-blades Steven
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I agree with Backer. Contact cement is very unforgiving, not to mention having really nasty fumes. Once you put your plank down you're committed, with no chance of fixing mistakes. White (poly vinyl acetate) glue allows you time to adjust things a bit, and believe me, you'll need it every now and then. As this is your first build, give yourself as much leeway as possible. You'll still make mistakes - we all do. But they needn't be disasters. Use the smallest amount of glue you can get away with but still be able to do the job. And wipe off excess immediately (a wet rag or wet paintbrush is good). A lot of people use a half and half white (PVA) glue/water mix - the thinner glue still works but doesn't make as much mess. And planking should be taken bit by bit - hurry is your enemy. Take the time to get it right and it won't sneer at you (as some of my own mistakes do to me) down the track. Good luck with the planking. I think the 4mm will look better, and 'jogging' will add to the "realness" of your model. And always ask questions if there's anything you're not sure about. There are plenty of people on this forum who'll be very happy to give you the benefit of their experience. Steven
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Hi to all from Tijuana MX.
Louie da fly replied to Sergio Camacho's topic in New member Introductions
I hope you do start a build log and I look forward to seeing the progress on your Titanic. I'd expect a 1:400 model to have a lot more detail than the 1:700 - It would be interesting to see how much extra. Steven -
I just googled it. That's a seriously attractive vessel. And yes, certainly start a build log. You'll find a lot of help from members, as well as a lot of encouragement. You'll still make mistakes - we all do - but you'll also be able to get help in correcting them from people with lot of experience, who've probably made the same mistakes themselves as they learnt the ropes. Looking forward to seeing Katy's progress! Steven
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No Mark, it's based on contemporary pictures. See my post #91 on page 4 of the build log. I started out with blades copied from the book Age of the Dromon, but decided to change them all to mirror more closely the picture in post #91. A lot of work, too, but I think worth it. Even then, perhaps I haven't got it exactly right as the taper in the picture seems to go a long way up the loom. Steven
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I've been busy. Here are the first steps in mass producing my oarsmen. This lot makes up just under half the number needed for the ship. Now I just have to carve them all . . . The book "Early Ships and Seafaring" by Sean McGrail contains a lot of interesting information, including the maximum and minimum distance for oared vessels (from archaeological finds) between the thole and the front of the oarbench. I tried one thole at the minimum distance (5.6 mm at 1:50 scale) and one at the maximum (8 mm ) to see how it all worked I've added the footrests at the back of each oarbench, for the oarsmen to push their feet against as they row. I cut strips from offcuts from deck planking etc. then cut them to length, trimmed the outboard end to follow the angle of the waterway and started gluing them in place. Here's one side complete (a bit hard to see - in the picture they're on the right hand side) I've put the first upper oar in (temporarily) to test which thole distance to use (turned out the minimum distance was best). Also to determine whether I've got the oarsmen right, and the correct configuration for their arms. Getting the upper oar at the same angle (from above) as the lower oars, (I used a block of wood as a spacer to get the oarblade at the right height) - as well as in a straight line between the oarsman's hands, the thole and the surface of the water. Looks like I still have some adjusting to do on the oarsmen's sitting position so their arms will be correct (compared to the photos I have of upper oarsmen on the trireme reconstruction Olympias). And here are the benches with all the footrests in place. Slow but steady progress. Steven
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Thanks for the likes and comments. Peter, thanks for the info on WISH. I'll have to chase up and see what they've got. Currently I'm ok for drill bits except I'd like some about 0.5mm - I'll have to see if they stock anything that size. Oh, and the answer to 24 across is "decor" Steven
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My latest shields: Of these the last three are among my favourites of all Byzantine shields - they're all from an enamelled gold ikon of the Archangel Michael in St Mark's, Venice. Around the border are several military Saints - for those who can't read Greek, the shields are carried by St Theodore Tyro (on the right) Saint Nestor (on the right) and Saint George (on the right). Note the saint next to him (Prokopios) is carrying his shield by its handle, with its back facing the viewer. The best sources for Byzantine shields are illustrated manuscripts - mostly either historical or Biblical - and representations of military saints, in ikons or in frescoes on the walls of Byzantine churches. The only problem, I've realised, is that if I concentrate on the attractive shields I'll be going for those of military saints, who were always portrayed as high-status warriors (the nobility), and the crew rowing a dromon certainly wouldn't fit into that category. So I'm going to have to go against my inclinations and do a lot more (simply decorated) shields as carried by common soldiers in illustrated manuscripts. But I'll keep the ones I've got - they're far too pretty not to . . . and even the "simple" ones are actually quite decorative - see shields 5-8 and 10 in the top row and 1, 4 and 5 in the bottom row in my post #1085 above. I have to say it's very enjoyable doing these and seeing how good I can get the detail at this scale. Steven
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She's looking very elegant. A beautiful hull shape and a very nice realisation. Steven
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Thanks for all the likes. Druxey, I investigated casting them and decided it was just not practical (or within the budget). I'd been trying all the way through the build to avoid carving the figures but have finally decided it's the best way to go, at least for me. Pat, thanks gain for the offer, and normally I'd have taken you up on it, but I think Shakespeare was right - the better part of valour is discretion. While we haven't got the facilities for testing the whole population, we can't be sure who's got it - including ourselves - so it's best not to take chances; not only for the sake of ourselves but for other people as well. Steven
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I'm starting to work out the best way to make these oarsmen with least unnecessary actions - reducing the sawcuts to the absolute minimum needed, but even more to reduce the carving I need to do to a minimum. Here's the results of my first attempt. Having drawn a side view of the oarsman I made multiple photocopies and glued them to billets of pear wood, two to each piece, each with the head at the outside (top) edge - if I mess the head up, I might as well throw that figure away - it's impossible to fix it up - so I do that first. The reason for two to a piece is that it gives me a "handle" to hold while I work on the other figure. I found this out from grim experience. I sawed straight cuts approximating the outline of the side view. Then I turned the figure at right angles and marked the outline of the front/back view, and sawed straight cuts around that outline. Side: front: other side: Back: Next, carving the head with a No. 11 scalpel. Megatron: A bit of shaping: And yet more - perhaps a young Robert Redford? well, maybe not. I don't think Robert Redford has a nose quite like that: More later. But the system I've worked out seems to work pretty well with a good balance between sawcuts and carving. Steven
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Thanks very much for the offer, Pat. I'd dearly love to take advantage of it, but we've decided to limit our travel and contacts to the absolute minimum for the time being - at least until the situation is clearer. We've even cancelled (or at least postponed) the grandkid's 3rd birthday party. So until further notice I'm restricted to using a coping saw to cut the figures out. What with that and the work still to be done in the garden (we're going to put in a concrete path with decorative stone inserts) I won't have a chance to get bored. Steven
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Hi Borden and welcome to MSW. From your introduction it seems you've already decided on a model to make. Do you have any type of ship or time period you're particularly interested in? There's lots of choice available, from steel battleships to ships of the line to rowing boats. All good fun, all interesting. Sometimes too much choice available - like a kid in a candy shop. Don't forget to begin a build log when you get started - you'll get lots of encouragement and helpful tips from fellow members. And have a look at other people's build logs. Often problems that you encounter in your build have already been solved in someone else's log. Anyhow, welcome again. I look forward to seeing your progress. Steven
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Thanks for all the likes, everyone. Pat, after a fair bit of trial and error, once I'd figured out how to do a mass-production run it turned out to be pretty easy and fast. The main problem was drilling accurately enough. And then I had to go through and widen each hole with a dressmaking pin - I don't have any drill bits between 1mm (much too big) and 0.38mm (somewhat too small). Making the crew, on the other hand - that's going to take quite awhile. A lot of woodcarving ahead, I'm afraid. Still, if I pace myself (and let's face it, I won't be leaving the house much from now on) I should be able to make steady progress. One thing I need to do is work out a way to reduce wasted effort in shaping the figures - sawing each figure roughly from a block of wood and then carving off large bits that are just in the way - so I can get down to the serious stuff of making the figure itself. I'm sure I'll be able to work something out to make the process more efficient in terms to labour and time. Steven
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Dammit! I've always loved pre-dreadnoughts and this one is a beauty. Almost makes me want to go over to the Dark Side - but the bar is far too high for a duffer like me. I think I'll just have to stick to wood and early ships (plenty of choice there to keep me busy for a lifetime!) Steven
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HMCSS Victoria 1855 by BANYAN - 1:72
Louie da fly replied to BANYAN's topic in - Build logs for subjects built 1851 - 1900
Lovely work, Pat. I'm very hamfisted with soldering. Your work leaves me awestruck. Steven- 993 replies
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- victoria
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I've now made the tholes and their sockets for the upper bank of oars. I worked out a way to mass produce them, which seems to have worked nicely. A sheet of wood 0.5mm thick (25mm=1 inch at 1:50 scale) marked into strips, each of several sockets, with 0.38mm holes drilled for tholes. As it turned out there was a fair bit of wastage (ever tried to drill a 0.38mm hole in the exact middle of a strip of wood about 2mm wide with a hand-held electric drill?), so I had to make more strips later. And cut into strips. Ends tapered in the vertical dimension to make the sockets "hump-back" shaped, and edges smoothed off. Tholes with a tenon at one end, cut to length and glued into the holes. Later I found it was better to cut the socket pieces apart before inserting the tholes. So now I have 54 tholes and sockets, allowing a few spare in case of stuff-ups. Next thing is to mark the thole positions on the gunwale to help determine where the uprights have to go for the pavesades (the railings that support the shields) so they don't foul the oars, and the same for the posts supporting the xylokastra (defensive wooden castles). Steven
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Beautiful work, Ekis. Very convincing - it really gives you the "feel" of the time and place. Steven
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Horses for courses, mate. The detail on your Victoria leaves me amazed. Granted that hand-painting is a different set of skills from making tiny bits of equipment - I have great trouble achieving the level of precision others are capable of in making tiddly little bits. I hope to improve, but I have to balance making tiddly bits to the level of precision I'd like to aspire to, with wanting to eventually actually finish the ship in my own lifetime! Steven
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I've finished putting the oarbenches in place. My next job is to make 50 tholes and their bases, as found in a Byzantine shipwreck in Istanbul. And I've made and painted another six new shields (the ones in the bottom row - again, taken from original Byzantine illustrations), with two more ready for painting and another one under way, a total of 19 so far - another 31 to go. They each take about a day to make. Steven
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Nice solution to the problem, Patrick. And to your usual high standard of research and workmanship. Steven
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- galleon
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As I mentioned above, it depends what you want to use it for. That's still quite a large amount of money, even if it's exactly what you want. As I know nothing about the circumstances, I'm not in a position to advise whether or not to get the printer - that's a decision you'll have to make for yourself. In certain uses it'd be very worthwhile, but you know best what you want and whether you'd get enough use out of it to make the purchase worthwhile. For example, if you had an A0 AutoCad drawing and wanted to print it off, it might be much cheaper and more economical to just take it down to a printing works and pay them to make one or more copies at A0. A few bucks instead of $922. Steven
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