BANYAN

Hi Rob, many thanks for looking in and your suggestions; I very much appreciate your contributions. I have a copy of the book and I am kicking myself (very hard ) that I have not checked it previously; it is one of those books I did not readily identify (changed opinion now) with this level of research as the author mostly provides drawings/illustrations with very little supporting text (need to trust he is accurate). That said, there are lots of examples of equipment, and in particular ship rigs, provided, and after looking at them I am confident in staying with my assessment/proposal of a 'Steamer Rig' as most (NOT all) steamers appear to use this, or a slightly modified version of the rig. Contemporary authors probably avoided defining it as a 'particular type' of rig, especially calling it a 'Steamer rig' (or something similar) as it was developed in the transitional phase of sail-to-steam powered vessels and there were some modifications / other rigs used in steam-powered ships - they would therefore have believed it to be a transitory evolution of a rig (as Druxey pointed out). Also, by the time the rig was established steam-power, along with iron construction, was well and truly preeminent and the 'need' to name these rigs was probably thought less relevant. However, I still believe (my opinion) that the very wide use of this style/type of rig in steam powered vessels, and its continued use well after steam became the main motive power for ships, that it can be 'identified' as a specific style/type of rig. The name I have offered should really be attributed to Kipping, and to a lesser degree Fincham, whom discuss the rig under the topic of 'steamers' without actually naming it so. Unfortunately, we cannot associate it as a Jackass Bark due to the fact Victoria (and other steamers) also carried a course on the main as well as the fore mast. However, his diagram of early steamers on page 92 (option B ) is a close fit once you add the clipper bow and associated rigging - that agrees with Kipping's description also. (Note the two part masts with long extension poles - combined Topmast and TG mast). A pity he does not provide some further text to support the drawings, as a 'scan through' of the rig illustrations tends to support the association of a two-part mast with fore-and-aft sail rigged ships. cheers Pat

Hi all, another update. After some deeper reading of Kipping and Fincham (both authors published in 1854) I think I have some resolution on this rig. Neither author (actually no author then or since) have actually named this rig. However, all authors tend to discuss the rig under reference to 'a Steamer' - that is, the relevant discussion relates to a subject (such as masts, or tops, or fittings etc) under the auspices of as fitted to a steamer. Based on their writing, supplemented with information gleaned from several authors and sources, I have established a 'common fit' for a rig that was used exclusively for steam powered vessels (paddle or screw driven). The 'rig' appears to have been derived when steam was used as auxiliary power (late 1840s/early 1850s) and sail was still the primary 'driving' force until much later when steam prevailed as the primary motive power. The rig appears to have been used well into the late 19th century. It also closely aligns with Victoria's rig with a few minor differences. These differences can be attributed to her merchant vessel design features and the 'whims' of the designer/builder. The research has also exposed that the rig, especially the forms of the Tops' framing, differed slightly between the 'typical' Service (Naval) and Merchant vessel fits. The rig also, as suspected, was a composite Barque/Schooner rig but can now I think be identified as a specific type which for want of a better term I will call "Steamer Rig" Essentially, the main characteristics of the 'Steamer Rig' are: 3 masts and a bowsprit. Two part masts with a taller (than for other similar sized vessels) single tree Lower masts and all with a single loose extension pole mast. The Fore and Main mast pole extensions were usually formed as a combined Topmast and Topgallant mast with short stub pole (to fly pennants, flags etc) - however, in one of those identified differences in Victoria, she also had the Royal mast included in this single Upper pole mast. The Mizen mast comprised the usual (for square rigged vessels) pole mast extension with no crowjack. The bowsprit is short, nearly horizontal, with a jib and flying jibboom in one. (The 'steeve' of Victoria's bowsprit was measured at 15 degrees up from the waterline as the reference (75 degrees from the vertical).) Square sails to the Fore and Main mast, Spanker/Driver on the Mizzen; Staysail, Jib, Outer Jib and Flying Jib to the Bowsprit/Jibboom. The Fore and Main masts carried a Gaff Trysail with Gaff booms ( or Boom-Sails as Kipping refers to them) - as large as the spacing between masts and deck equipment etc would allow for them to be conveniently worked. Some versions also occasionally carried Gaff Topsails (not in Victoria) Additional detail to assist identifying this rig includes: All masts were fitted with a lightweight skeletal form of Top at the Lower mast hounds only; no other tops/trees were fitted to the pole extension masts. The pole masts had stops/shoulders at the appropriate height where the yards for the associated yards were to be lifted; these were fitted with a iron and copper 'funnel'. Spreaders were not fitted to the Tops. Service vessels had different forms (framing) of Tops fitted to the Fore and Main/Mizen masts - curved rim on the Foremast only. Merchant vessels had the same, lighter (than Service vessel Tops) framed form of skeletal Tops fitted on all three masts; all had the curved rim forward. The lower yards were usually fitted with an iron-Truss, with an option of Truss or Parrels used for the upper yards Fincham also stated: The masting of steam-vessels is not subject to the same strict rules that are made to determine the masting of other classes of ships. The length of the masts and yards must, however, bear some general relation to the length and breadth of the vessel; but both this relation, and the positions of the masts, are subject to many variations depending on particular circumstances, especially on the service in which the vessel is to be employed, whether for long and short voyages, or only in rivers. The positions of the masts must, in many cases, be determined by the situation of the machinery, and the quantity of sail be regulated by the requirements incident to its employment. It is, however, important, on account of the obstruction which the masts and yards present in steaming head to wind, that they should be made as compact as possible. ………….. There is a significant amount of information on the shaping, form and fittings of masts for a Steamer provided by both authors, but their 'rules-of-thumb', or formulae, for reducing/tapering spars differ. Unfortunately neither (any) author provides a 'rule' for dimensioning the single pole extension. I will continue to find something on this and advise when i have anything worth mentioning. I hope this information helps others whom may need to use similar rigs to ships they are/or wish to model. cheers Pat

Nice finish to the Lion's head Steven, the model is coming along very nicely. cheers Pat

Beautiful hull form that looks absolutely perfect in symmetry and finish - ditto John's comment though (opinion only as this is your model and your choice of finish) - she will look stunning whichever way you go. cheers Pat

Thanks very much all, I am glad to be finally making some progress with this. cheers Pat

Thanks Eberhard; that is exactly what I am finding; in the meantime I have decided to call it 'Steamer' Rig as it seemed to be fitted to commonly to most steam powered vessels (both screw and paddle driven). I have also found a description of a Barue by 'Desmond' in his book ‘Wooden Ship Building’, (1998), in Chapter 3, page 123 which depicts a Barque rig with some fore-and-aft sails as shown below (note they do not appear to be gaff sails though). He describes a Barque as a three-masted vessel (foremast, mainmast and mizzen mast) the two foremost masts are square rigged, as in a ship, the after or mizzen mast has no yards being fitted with a topmast only and carries a gaff sail (called the spanker) and a gaff-topsail. that said, Victoria did not carry the gaff-topsail. cheers Pat

Hi all, bit the bullet after some further experimenting and decided an improved version of what I was doing was the better solution. I made a jig (see photo) which has the spacer piece in the wake of the mandrel (end of 0.6mm drill bit) - this is exactly in line although the photo does not show it too well. The length of the 'blade' allows the legs of the strap to be folded back and roughly aligned with a broken drill bit (agin 0.6mm) used to get the bottom holes roughly in line. The important bit here as I suspected, was to put an initial bend on the centre of the strap for which I used a pair of wire bending pliers (smallest diameter). The drill bit needs to be long enough to provide a good grip on the protruding ends as I found that if I offered the assembled rough bend onto the vertical mandrel them applied pressure by pulling back from the mandrel it was easier to get a consistent bend. The other important part of the technique was to apply pressure to the full length of the straps as starting at the mandrel end resulted in kinking of the legs and overall bend. Bit tough on the fingertips but no blood donated to this part of the build (yet) Once I got on a role it only took 30 minutes to produce 40 of them. the result is not too bad and once filed (cleaned up) should look acceptable. Here is one rigmaiden lanyard I have assembled but not yet attached to the chain plate. Still some cleaning up to do, but to the eye they look pretty good - this is taken at macro range. Next job is to solder a small piece of plate in the throat of the bend above the upper holes which acts both as a spacer and as a preventer (to stop the untensioned lines/shackles for the shrouds sliding down between the straps. I also need to build a jig to hold the chain plate eye steady while I pein the end of a brass nail (cut to length) placed through the split eye of the chain plate and the larger hole in the end of the rigmaiden lanyard. cheers Pat

Thanks Vossie

Hi all, and many thanks for the feedback/suggestions; they are much appreciated. Mark - the straps are already photoetched with the holes. my attempts to drill holes at this size resulted in some very 'ugly' results Carl and Keith (A) - that is the method I am currently using, but overnight I also thought of trying this with the stub of a suitably sized drill bit. the greatest difficulty is getting the bend started nicely and consistently at the right point as any over pressured attempts see the legs bending at the inner most holes unfortunately. Keith (B) - mate, I am not quite sure I could achieve that at this scale The 'notches' would need to be cut only .4mm deep and very accurately placed as these straps are already pre-etched. That said, this is a great suggestion for the future as I would etch those notches as part of the process. Eberhard - I will also try this today (wood version as I don't have a dapping block) and see how it goes. Splitting the block correctly (accurately) will be the challenge I am also thinking of remaking the bending jig with a narrow hardwood wood base (to fit in a vise), then fit a (broken) drill bit of appropriate diameter into one end about the length of the folded strap back from the end. I will insert (upright) an offcut of flat brass plate the same thickness as the lower strap between the drill bit and the end (to maintain the correct separation. If I achieve this, and using the drill bit to align the lower holes of each leg, I may be able to get better (more consistent) results. I am finding that whichever method I use, the critical step is the initial bend point being 'on centre' - that is where I am having the real issues. cheers (and many thanks again) Pat

Beautiful work mate; the care and attention to detail and fitting is certainly paying dividends. cheers Pat

Can I get your Admiral to speak with mine Grant? cheers Pat

Great result Vossie - so, don't leave us hanging What was the easier way hold them (to stuff the octopus also!) :)? cheers Pat

Great adaption - thanks Keith. cheers Pat

Very nice - nice crisp work Pat cheers Pat

Thanks Keith; you are right it is probably an easy task and just FOMU from me I will give it a go soon. I have one more task to complete before taking a break (overseas holiday) soon and wish to try and finish these 'Rigmaiden' lanyards before I go. The problem I am currently having is bending the top strap through 90 degrees either side of centre (back on itself) such that the pre-etched holes all align and I retain a 'neat' loop at the top though which the wire rigging/shackles were attached. My efforts to date have been inconsistent as can be seen in the two photos of one strap I have tried to bend. I have tired bending the strap around a mandrel (pin in hardwood) then using a pin through the bottom two holes (one either leg) to keep the bottoms aligned, then pressing together with flat-nosed parallel pliers. I have also tried using another pin behind the mandrel to stop the strap moving away from the pin. The problem is that the two legs do not always come together exactly (out by .5mm - which is enough to stop the various pins I need to add from being inserted correctly. I have thought of trying to 'fix' one leg of the strap at a preset length such that the bend will always be at the centre point of the strap but the strap keeps slipping and it is difficult to bend the remaining length. Any ideas/suggestions most welcomed Please note none of these elements have been 'cleaned up' (filed etc) yet and the assembled strap is a crude prototype to show what I am trying to do. The chain plat as you can see has been slotted through the soldered eye. cheers Pat

Thanks for sharing this technique GL; very useful and they look great. cheers Pat

Very nice job on the portholes Keith; they came out very 'smooth' with not a sign of chipping I could see. cheers Pat

Good to see you making sawdust (and boats :)) again Mark. A good outcome with the laser cut spiled planks; not easy to do with such small items but everything learned on this can be applied to the others. cheers Pat

Hi Eberhard, some very sage advice as usual - many thanks. The idea of using the toolpost is one I had not thought of; I will stow that suggestion away for future use My mill head does rotate through 90 but I have never tried it with the fear I would need to realign things all over when reverting to the vertical. Call it FOMU (Fear Of Mucking Up) if you like When I did think of that option though, I was wondering how to mount the vise and keep the work at the right level (low enough) - and finding a slitting blade with a suitable diameter that would still clear the cross-slide. cheers Pat

I can't provide any advice on the drilling as I do not have that level of experience in this area. You have far more experience and you are receiving some great advice from some talented and more experienced (than me) modellers - but I am learning a lot from this discussion. Thank you all. That said, I must declare that I like Dan's idea. Mate, I will stand in the trenches shoulder-to-shoulder with you in defence, should you decide to paint . As you can see from my models, I prefer to paint them as I try to recreate the look and feel of the 'real ship' as she may have looked (and this is my opinion only - everyone has their own ) . I say 'may have looked' as I am a long way off perfecting the 'scale colour' as it is called by more artistically experienced modellers - that is scale the colour tones etc to suit the model scale. There is enough wood remaining in the deck furniture to satisfy my 'love of natural wood' - but each to their own ideas on that. cheers Pat (standing by to receive any incoming )

I have been pondering on what to call the rig also Druxey and had been leaning towards 'Steamer rig' as that is the type of vessel (both paddle and screw driven) it seems be exclusively fitted to. I do like the use of 'transitional' also and perhaps I will add that. I am working on a document at the moment (Word) that collated the research I have done to date and I will make it available via PM (for anyone one interested) or, via this thread, in the very near future for those whom may be interested to comment upon etc. At this point, the research is purely to provide the reasoning for the shaping and structure of the masts, and the rigging/sail plans (and eventually a belaying plan) as I have enough information to draw the masts now I think. I know it is a single stick upper mast (combining the top, topgallant and royal masts) to which I will apply the 'rules of thumb' proposed by Kipping and Fincham with a slight adaption to the head of the royal based on a comment by one of these authors. Once drawn in isolation I will overlay it to onto the lithographs and photograph of the ship and adjust to best fit. Hopefully I will be quite close. The next exercise is to determine the spar furniture and here I will run with the proposals of the same authors for the fittings specific to a steamer and adapted for merchant rather than RN (service) ships. Many thanks for your continued interest and suggestions; it is very much appreciated. cheers Pat

I hope things improve very soon for you Rob. I can empathise with what you are going through and it isn't any fun at all. Get yourself well first mate; GR can wait (unless you leave that door Druxey found open ) cheers Pat

Hi Ed and thanks for your feedback. I had tried inverting it, but I would need to redrill the existing, or get a new, Z-Axis bar to mount the tool to. But even then unfortunately the y-axis table will still strike against the base It was never designed to work in this configuration unfortunately. If I used it more often I would consider doing some modifications but I really only use it for template making and the like now (in a more basic set-up) as I use the Sherline for all my milling etc. I would have used the Sherline if I had a way to turn the work through 90 degrees as I have a slitting saw for that. cheers Pat

Thanks mate. That is a very similar colour used by the RAN fore while and I also need to do some non-slip (Devron) walk areas on my little 'lugger' so will watch with interest. cheers Pat

That serving on your lines for the buoy look great - very nice job. The serving is very tight and even. cheers Pat