Boeing B-17 by popeye the sailor - FINISHED - Lindberg - 1:64 scale - nose art edition

[turangi]

The crash was extremely sad and tragic, I flew on that plane last summer.

Edited October 3, 2019 by turangi

[Old Collingwood]

Very sad  day,   RIP all those.

 

OC.

[popeye the sailor]

thanks for the pictures Turangi........great shot through the nose glass    listening to a report on the 'Google'  this morning,  the person interviewed called the plane 'ancient'.  what......is that grounds that it shouldn't have been in the air?  the Foundation totally rebuilt the plane............and yes,  engine failure in #4 brought her down.   newer planes have met the same fate    dunno.....just miffed me,  that's all.   the latest report list seven that died,  which includes both the pilot and the co pilot.

 

I did find a photo of the Memphis Belle......but for some reason,  it's messed up?!?!  guess my computer camera is out of focus        I've also been on the look out for decal sets for her.......hard to find in 1:64 scale.

[Jack12477]

13 minutes ago, popeye the sailor said:

the person interviewed called the plane 'ancient'.  what.

Gee, Denis, I wonder how they would classify the bi-planes at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome across the Hudson River from me. Most are 1916 vintage , Nieuwport, Sopwith Camel, Bleriot, etc  -all flyable  

Edited October 3, 2019 by Jack12477

[popeye the sailor]

I'll bet if they took the Wright Bros.  plane out and flew it,  it would fly.   I'm pretty sure these folks knew what they were doing when they refurbished the B 17....no doubt that it was a solid plane      considering how pilots brought their planes home,  with as much damage as they received from flak and enemy fire..........there has to be more to this plane's story,  as to why.   there's no news yet on the direct cause.

 

I read an article today about the Germans flying captured B 17 during WWII.........they had about 40 of 'em.......all decked out in Luftwaffe markings.   almost 31,000 B 17 were built........best guess is that around 50 of them still exist.   the rest were scrapped.  other countries still have a few as well 

[lmagna]

In many cases the pilots who flew B 17s in WWII had MUCH more practice in flying their planes home in less than perfect condition than the present day pilots probably have. I had somewhat the same experience in my time in Hueys. The pilots who had been in country for a while tended to be better at getting the chopper to do what THEY wanted than the new pilots, even those who had more hours when they arrived. Combat practice hones a number of skills that seem to come in no other way, and in many cases are not found in training manuals. The plane may have been old but it may not have been the case of the pilots.

[Old Collingwood]

7 hours ago, lmagna said:

In many cases the pilots who flew B 17s in WWII had MUCH more practice in flying their planes home in less than perfect condition than the present day pilots probably have. I had somewhat the same experience in my time in Hueys. The pilots who had been in country for a while tended to be better at getting the chopper to do what THEY wanted than the new pilots, even those who had more hours when they arrived. Combat practice hones a number of skills that seem to come in no other way, and in many cases are not found in training manuals. The plane may have been old but it may not have been the case of the pilots.

You never told me you flew hueys  -    what a superb heli.

 

OC.

[lmagna]

I'm afraid I either wrote my last post wrong or it was not interpreted correctly OC.

 

I was NOT a pilot in Hueys or any other aircraft, fixed or rotary wing. That would have taken some semblance of intelligence, something I have always been rather short of. I sat in the right side doorway held onto an M-60 and said "Yes Sir" a lot. The closest I ever got to actually flying anything was when one of the pilots I knew pretty well asked me if I wanted to fly an OH-58 Kiowa and when I stupidly said I would love to, he gave me the controls for I think was only a few minutes. It seemed like several hours and I think I managed to make it go in every direction other than straight. I would not have been surprised if the pilot had told me I had been flying backwards! I KNOW I was going sideways at least once. I could probably have landed it, but I am not so certain anyone would walk away from it.

 

Years later I was doing some cross country flying with a friend in his Cessna 150. I did only slightly better. I pretty much kept it in a straight line and only changed altitude by 500 feet or so at a time. There is no doubt in my mind that if I even tried to land it there would be no survivors.

 

Having said that I have spent enough time in aircraft to know that there are pilots and there are PILOTS. It is not just a skill, done properly it is also an art form.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

[Old Collingwood]

38 minutes ago, lmagna said:

I'm afraid I either wrote my last post wrong or it was not interpreted correctly OC.

 

I was NOT a pilot in Hueys or any other aircraft, fixed or rotary wing. That would have taken some semblance of intelligence, something I have always been rather short of. I sat in the right side doorway held onto an M-60 and said "Yes Sir" a lot. The closest I ever got to actually flying anything was when one of the pilots I knew pretty well asked me if I wanted to fly an OH-58 Kiowa and when I stupidly said I would love to, he gave me the controls for I think was only a few minutes. It seemed like several hours and I think I managed to make it go in every direction other than straight. I would not have been surprised if the pilot had told me I had been flying backwards! I KNOW I was going sideways at least once. I could probably have landed it, but I am not so certain anyone would walk away from it.

 

Years later I was doing some cross country flying with a friend in his Cessna 150. I did only slightly better. I pretty much kept it in a straight line and only changed altitude by 500 feet or so at a time. There is no doubt in my mind that if I even tried to land it there would be no survivors.

 

Having said that I have spent enough time in aircraft to know that there are pilots and there are PILOTS. It is not just a skill, done properly it is also an art form.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

You was still on one and saw  service   - sounds good enouth to me, you was still part of the Hueys  history  either  flying or doing what you did   - same difference and importance in my eyes    - respect to  you sir.

 

OC.

[mtaylor]

Lou,

Just like any other aircraft.. slow, steady movement on the controls.  If you're shaking from nervousness, that's normal.  I flew CH-34's and CH-53's on avionics test flights as "co-pilot" and a couple of real pilots taught me how so they could just sit back and watch the world go by.  Fun stuff......   I did the door gunner bit also but we got .50 cals. in the CH-53.  

[lmagna]

Yes, you and I have gotten to share a few notes about our time as door gunners Mark, and it brought back some memories. For some strange reason there seems to be few shotgun riders out there. In all these years I have met only a couple besides you. There must be something to the saying that the life expectancy of a door gunner from the time he took off until the time he ALMOST landed was about five minutes and that anyone who volunteered for the job was Dinky Dau.

 

I was also told to use little movement on the controls and I think with time and practice I have the aptitude needed to become a real pilot. I even gave a little thought of reenlisting and going back to the states for warrant officer school and pilot training but I felt I had too many family responsibilities waiting at home that needed attending. Besides, unknown to me at the time, they were cutting back drastically on the size of the military, and that scenario would have probably not worked anyway.  

 

It's been almost 50 years for me and I am certain just as long or longer for you.  You also probably have more hours in helicopters than I do. I had training, an 11 month tour, and was out. In a little less than 24 hours I was walking down the streets of Oakland California with discharge papers in my pocket and the smell of Vietnam still in my nose. Biggest shock of my life. There were actually other colors in the world than red dirt and green, and people did not dress all alike! I was in so much shock that I almost turned around and reenlisted! Most other guys were throwing their entire duffel bags of military gear/clothing into a bin just before you left the induction center in total disgust and refused to go out onto the street wearing any kind of uniform. That part affected me as well and I think it was over forty years before I said much about those few years of my life to anyone who had not been there.

Edited October 4, 2019 by lmagna

[Canute]

When I got back from Nam in 1973, we were told at Travis AFB to get into civvies before we left the base, enroute to San Francisco International and home. I had cousins in the Bay Area who picked me up there for a brief visit. Short-haired young man was a rarity. I got yelled and spit at, but considering the time frame, just rolled with the punches. My cousins were my parents age, so they weren't able to help much. We hit Fisherman's Wharf, had a good Italian meal and headed across the Bay, where they lived. Finally got welcomed home (outside my family) sometime in the late 90s. It was a divisive time back then. Sorry about the mini-rant, but it helps the catharsis. Probably why I stayed in for all those years. The GIs were more family than the average civilian back then.

[popeye the sailor]

I felt bad for the way they treated all those who were in the Nam war,  that they didn't have anything to do with {only serve}.   what you folks must have seen.........probably wasn't meant for mortal eyes    the most memorable line in any movie......"War is hell.....Ain't it?!?!?"   it was made worse since half the time,  it was hard to know who the enemy was.  major respect to anyone who served.......I didn't get to,  since they stopped the draft,  and that I was an in between war kid.  I would have gone to the Air Force if I had to chose.......I had plans as a pilot    I ended up moving to Florida instead,  and lived the dream that was awarded to me........by you folks,  and those who paid the price.

 

somewhere in the community forums,  I told how I used to wear my brother's Army "hand me downs"........I had the entire private's garb........boots,  belt and everything.  I had plans to go.........and yea,  there were times I was made fun of.......but I didn't care    I thought I looked cool.......I was in fashion for the time.  I met Sargent Steel at a function at school,  and I guess he liked me.........enough to give me a complete dress uniform that he had outgrown........complete with stripes and brass!  I was very proud to wear it to school one day,  hat and all..........my world history teacher was very impressed with my attire,  since we were talking about the second world war.  

   he even saluted me,  being a vet himself!  of course,  I saluted back    the only thing........was the hair..........I has shoulder length hair....RED hair     I think it was "the duality of man", Sir............

 

...and I totally agree Lou........pilots had a reason for flying as well as they did.......their very life depended on it!  they had a very dangerous landscape to fly through  

[lmagna]

That is exactly what I was saying Ken.

 

Even though I got out in 71 it was much the same, and it was something you had to experience to truly understand. We were easy to pick out of a crowd even after we changed into civvies. Short hair was not the only sign. The way we walked, the way we constantly looked at everything around us and being aware of our surroundings. Keeping ourselves always positioned in a way that was best for safety. I compare it today with all of the people who wander the streets with their eyes glued to their cell phones and shudder. We were, and in some ways still are denied the opportunity to feel pride for the job we did. When I left the Army we were winning the war in Vietnam. That is not the way they teach it to my kids in school these days. Even though I was never spit on, when people recognized me as a vet, they acted differently or avoided me all together, like I was some kind of mutant creature or deranged time bomb, just waiting to go off. This was what the movies taught everyone for years. It was also 30 years before I got my first, "Welcome Home," It was an emotional shock to say the least.

 

I will repeat here what I said in private OC.

 

 You should save that kind of respect for someone who really deserves it.

 

I was young and was sent overseas “At the discretion of the military.” When I arrived in country, I discovered that there was an opportunity to do something more interesting than being an infantryman. Flying in choppers seemed far more romantic and exciting. In hind sight it really was. BUT I should have been wary of anything the Army offered as a voluntary position! It was a bit more hazardous than exciting at times and of course it had very limited job experience potential back in the real world when I got out. Not many jobs out there for “Trained shooter”!

 

So hold your respect for those who gave their all in the line of duty, or even worse come back in pieces and managed to restore their lives and become constructive members of their normal world and ask for nothing more than to work for a chance of a relatively normal life. THOSE people deserve respect! That includes those people in countries all over the world. Combat for your country is not a unique American experience. I have had a relatively good life, by some peoples standards, even a good or privileged life and have few regrets. But if I die tomorrow It would have little effect on anyone outside of my immediate family.

 

This thread has taken a turn that I did not intend and I apologize to Denis. For my part I will get off of my soapbox and the trip down memory lane, to return to the observation of what is certain to be a memorable build of a historic and notable aircraft that did make an impact of noteworthiness to it's time in history and should be remembered.

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by lmagna

[CDW]

Talking to my friends who served in all three wars, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam, consensus was Korea was the worst from an infantry man's perspective. Conditions were atrocious, extreme in every way and the combat was hell.

[popeye the sailor]

I love the interest..........it's feeding my "bomber Frankenstein"     in my younger days,  I built many planes.......LOL......they were bigger than my car fetish,  which I built a plethora of them when that took hold.  of course,  that later led to the larger scale kits...something that took more than a week to build    fighter planes were good too........don't get me wrong........I do recall a large scale kit of a Stuka,  that I was particularly fond of.  just to get a sense of how large this kit is,  I taped the wings and fuselage together....the wings lock into place on this model,  which is kinda neat.   1:64 is a fair size scale........it's too bad that it didn't stay with the plastic model.  I think it related more to the model train medium.  it also made me reminisce to my younger days,  when I was so eager to build the model,  not having any glue at the time.  I'd do this as I was cleaning up the parts,  so the halves would meet together evenly when I did finally get some.  

clean the flash out of the windows............and off of the edges to round them off.........I wished the engines were independent of the cowls.  paint will be meticulous in those areas.  the paint will be easy on me with this one.........

....the interior is the same color as the exterior.......green.  weighing out my paints,  I don't have enough Olive Drab for both planes.  since the Revell kit is a much better kit,  I chose a Forest Green for this one.  it's close enough,  and it will reflect the box art...not that I use that as a barometer ,   but it will complement the red and black quite well.   as mentioned,  I wasn't able to find a place to buy the caps separately for my Testor's EZ airbrush....I will keep looking....but I saw that Hobby Lobby had one on the shelf.  ......think I paid 29.99 for it.

luckily,  it's the camo one.........it comes with five colors of flat paint.   it only shows four,  as well as four caps,  but the fifth one for each are in a bag under the tray,  along with the tubes and cleaning rods for the caps.  I'm not impressed with the way the tail section goes together.........not as much with the assembly,  but the absence of tabs to position the stabilizer wings properly.  

there's no guess work.....the parts are the same......top and bottom.  one side will be green,  and the other,  I think a Ghost gray is in order......as long as it's not too gray.    the conversation here drives me..........I won't lie.   I wasn't going to do much....but I set up the airbrush and I was eager to try it out.  lately,  I have been using a brush,  so this should be a treat!   I was also eager to put glue to her......first order of business was to add all of the bulkheads to one side of the fuselage.  I realized a bit later that adding the partition between the pilots and what I believe is the Navigator's section,  that it will be harder to install the side windows.  I'll cross that swamp when I get to it  

I really should have tested the airbrush first.......not for it's operation,  but for my technique......I'm a little rusty.   I think I thinned the paint too much as well which resulted in a waste of paint.

it's a good thing I began with the interior........it won't show as much     the mix was adjusted..........

we're undergoing a season change now.........not to the point that we need to use the heat.   the house is cool........a bit chilly at times with the rain.....it's been an ongoing occurrence of late.  anyone who is experiencing the heat wave can send some up this way..........I won't complain!     this lends for a longer drying time........it was a while before I could do the exterior.

flaps and rudder done too.......the paint is still wet.  we did chicken out at nightfall........the chill became too much for the courageous admiral.  the welcomed heat hastened the drying time.   the wasted paint was detrimental.......I still have the wings to do.   Medium green is not a close match........but I have a flat green that is.  I may have to highlight the rest of the exterior to even it out.  this has always been one of my biggest fears when painting.   I guess it's better to have too much than too little.......touch up paint is a must.   it looks good to my eyes.......I think the infusion will make it look better though.

 

[popeye the sailor]

no need to apologize Lou  mixed reviews on the movie angle though.   most movies made during the era,  reflected men who were proud to do their duty and to promote respect from the masses.  movies like Platoon,  Full Metal Jacket,  and Hacksaw Ridge show other retrospectives.   some went 'cuz they wanted to,  and some went under invitation.   not everyone was 'John Wayne'...or even 'animal mother'........cripe......even Hitler shot anyone who wasn't for the 'motherland'.   Cambodia,  Korea,  Vietnam.......these conflicts were probably the most grueling.......nasty weather and terrain,  coupled with a country that didn't want our help to begin with.  anyway....just say'in that there are some movies out there that aren't propaganda.

 

next showing.........The Blue Max  ....maybe even a following of Bat 21 { I love Gene Hackman}

[popeye the sailor]

I just did the remix and shot the wings.   yea......I will have to repaint the fuselage and top stabilizer.   the admiral took a look at what I was doing.........she likes the new color!    I I wonder if I can get away with a couple more..........as long as I paint 'em green........hmmmmmmmmm {I could be onto something  }.

[lmagna]

Maybe you could add a touch of black to the green to make it a little more OD in color for the exterior. Using it on the interior looks pretty good. Very close to the chromite green they used. I think they also used it as a primer so covering it up on the exterior with a darker green may work out perfectly.

 

What is the wingspan on this model anyway?

[Canute]

The interior green you started with looks good Denis. Like Lou called it, a chromate green. The fuselage looks almost too apple green for the outside OD green. Waiting to see what your latest mix looks like.

 

As to the scale, the plane is what the railroaders call S scale. It's a good scale due to it's size. Some of you of a certain age may well remember American Flyer trains. Smaller than Lionel, more prototypical in appearance. Nowadays, it is a very small, minority scale, maybe 2% of the US model train market. HO scale is about 75%, N scale is about 15-20%.

[mtaylor]

17 hours ago, lmagna said:

Yes, you and I have gotten to share a few notes about our time as door gunners Mark, and it brought back some memories. For some strange reason there seems to be few shotgun riders out there. In all these years I have met only a couple besides you. There must be something to the saying that the life expectancy of a door gunner from the time he took off until the time he ALMOST landed was about five minutes and that anyone who volunteered for the job was Dinky Dau.

 

It's been almost 50 years for me and I am certain just as long or longer for you.

True, door gunners prior to around the middle of '69 had a short lifetime.    

 

Actually it's been about 50 for me.  I got out in late '70.  BTW, I still won't sit with my back to a door.   Old habits die hard, I guess.

 

Yeah.. that cultural shock  was rough.  I'd been home for a week and a friend I had over there got out and stopped by for visit. We were walking downtown and car backfired.  Both of us were in street next to the curb with folks just staring with their mouths open.  

 

 

Denis,

A few of those movies gave nightmares.  Bat21 in particular for some reason.

 

I like the way B17 is going.  Something about those planes I just can't explain.  Those who flew there were very brave and many paid the price.  

 

 

[Canute]

Yes they were. When you read about their operations over Germany and the fact that when 1 plane went down, 10 brave men went missing, it hits you hard. Both the USAAF and RAF bombers crews had short life expectancies. But, they went anyway. True heroes. 👍

[thibaultron]

Guys, I'm about your age. I just want to say, that I was never one of the ones that disrespected the Nam Vets and that you for your service!

[mtaylor]

Thanks Ron.  Most people weren't disrespectful.  They just ignored us.  But, different times, different places.  I'm just happy the military gets the respect they deserve today.

[Canute]

Thank you, Ron. Folks are much better these days about recognizing the efforts and sacrifices veterans made so that the general population can live the lives they want to live.

 

Like Mark says, most weren't disrespectful, just indifferent. The harshest ones were in the Bay Area. Remember that we have Berkeley out there. I get thanked a lot nowadays for my service if I wear my retired AF hat around town. We have a local business man who organizes "Honor Flights" up to Washington, DC, for the vets. They get charter flights up and back and escorted rides around DC to visit some of the memorials.  And a big welcome home in Asheville Airport from the local Guard units and the USO. It's quite a show. Not a dry eye in the house either.

[CDW]

My older brother was my war hero when I grew up. Here, he was doing a tour in Korea, 1963. As you can see, he was always the ladies man and found himself a sweetheart in Korea. When he returned, the Army formed the 1st Cavalry Air Mobile and he was sent directly to Vietnam in 1965/66. It was hell and that's putting it mildly. Search and destroy was no joke.

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

thanks for the good word gents........I know it should have an Olive drab exterior.   as a matter of fact,  in a lot of the pictures,  the paint appears to be somewhat faded......more detectable in the color photos.  the green I began with is a Forest green.......glad that it does take on the chromite green,  but agreed that it has a green apple look.   I'm using a medium green here.....I've done the wings,  rudder,  and flaps for the moment.  the wingspan of the model is 19 1/2 inches.

the green is more subdued....not as vibrant.  adding a touch of black may give it the drab quality,  but I think adding the other colors will make it look better.   I'll mask the openings so it don't get on the interior......I have no more Forest green.

 

it was a hard movie to find Mark.......I looked every where,  short of ordering it {which I never checked}.  one day I found it at Wal mart......two movie combo.  if I recall,  as a coincidence.....the other movie was the Blue Max  

 

the light refraction gives it a bit of a drab look

[mtaylor]

I think the paint on those was zinc chromate... at least is was still in the choppers when I was in "the green".

 

Looking good, Denis.  Looks like a brand new plane.

 

Ah... The Blue Max... another great one.

[lmagna]

The color of the wings looks much more correct to me on my screen Denis.

 

I don't know about WWII but I suspect that it was much the same as it was when I was in the service. We had all kinds of colors in our choppers. All of them were "OD" of course but some of them were more faded or patched up than others or were new from the states or had returned from battalion with a new paint job of the current version of OD, and black. It was not really all that hard to tell one chopper from the other from across the field just by the color of the OD.

[Canute]

Yes, the left wing in your last shot looks spot on, Denis, as does that tailplane.

 

The only time we had vivid colors on the Phantoms was when we got refurbished ones from the depot. Otherwise the greens and tan faded quickly.