Wulfe Hound - captured B 17 - 1:72 scale by Popeye the Sailor - finished

[popeye the sailor]

through all the info I've dug up on this plane so far,  it's been touted as the first B 17 to have been captured and flown by the Germans.   I read about a few others,  but this one caught my eye first........so 'tag'.......your it    one article I read stated that the Germans named the ship,  but further digging revealed that she was listed in the USAAF 360BS 303BG "Hells Angels" squadron,  as 41-24585,   and so named.   one photo sticks out and shows that the Germans were not impressed with the nose art........a hound with a broken German fighter in it's mouth......the text "Wulfe Hound" scrawled above the image.

it can be seen on the starboard nose,  the scrunge of paint that blotted it out.   the Wulfe Hound was a B 17F-27-BO Bomber,  flown by Lt. Paul Flickering and crew.  on Dec 1942, while on a mission to bomb the rail yard in Rouen / sotteville, France {German occupied},  the squadron of 12 { 8 aborted the mission earlier due to difficulties}, were attacked by German aircraft.  One went down.............the Wulf Hound soon left formation with five fighters on her tail,  subsequently losing them in the cloud cover.  damaged and not being able to make it back,  Flickering set her down gear up,  in a hay field near Melun,  France.  no one was killed.........after trashing the radio and equipment,  they headed of into the woods.  Flickering and the Bombardier were captured....two others were caught by the Gestapo,  and the rest,  along with the crew from the earlier downed plane {they met up somewhere} made it to freedom.

from what I read,  it was moved to Leeuwarden AFB by the Germans and repaired to be airworthy....German markings and call letters were added.  they studied for a time, checking for weakness and vulnerabilities,  and then flown to Lars AFB,  where she was reviewed by higher ups,  along with other planes they had captured.  she then went to Rechlen AFB in 1943,   and put into service with the Luftwaffe,  KG 200.........a top secret squadron.........."the Spook Squadron" it was nicknamed.  they did change the call letters to A3 E3,  but I have seen no pictures of her with them shown.   for Christmas,  I got the perfect kit to build her with........this is a Revell kit {the Miami Clipper} that was produced back in 1989.

the kit is in 1:72 scale....plenty big enough for the project.  I don't plan on going too crazy with the interior,  although Revell did right by a few things that the Lindberg kit lacked.   I was going to buy another to do it,  if Christmas didn't pan out.   during the initial idea to do the plane,  another more recent offering of the Revell kit {the Memphis Belle} appeared at my door.   it being a 1:72 scale kit as well,  in looking it over,  I felt that the kit was too good for the project.........it's even better than the kit that I'm using!  again,  I really want to thank the person who sent it to me..........not to worry.......it will get it's turn  

    the nose art is a huge thorn in the side.......of all the articles and pictures,  I have seen and read,  the only glimpse of the nose art I saw,  was a small portion of the lower half of the hound.  the worst part is that none of the decal sheets I seen so far,  include it either.   it's not a super big deal,  since I found that it had been removed,   but it would have looked good on a stand or plaque.  one suggestion for study and it is referred to in a few of the articles,  is a book about the KG 200.........like the one I have in front of me right now   

gotta be honest.......I peeked.........it IS in here!  gotta run and go shopping,  but when I get back,.. I still have a bit more to add about the kit and such.  so it begins again......I haven't even ripped the plastic bag for the parts yet.....this kit was sealed when I got it  I'll be back  

Edited February 28, 2020 by popeye the sailor

[lmagna]

I must admit, there is a part of me that cringes at the idea of iron cross marking on a B-17 but there is no question that it will be a unique study and model. Certainly right up your alley Denis. I will be following your build with rabid attention as always. I am certain it will not be disappointing.

[popeye the sailor]

hello Lou.........I will say this........for anyone who like to do German planes,  this book is a must have!  it even has some color pictures.........it doesn't have them all,  but it covers quite a few.   they also housed quite an array of captured planes.  B 25's....B 24's.......Spitfires......even a couple Lockheed Lightnings:  a P 38G,  and a brand new {at the time} F 5E.  the pilot of that aircraft was court martial-ed and served a long prison sentence.  makes you wonder what went on there?!?!?   through the war,  the Germans had around twenty B 17's,  as well as several B 24's.........the book gives a pretty good outline concerning KG 200.  it corrects what I've read in a couple of ways as well.......all of the Lt. Flickinger crew were captured,  and that the nose art wasn't on the starboard side,  but on the port side instead.   here is what the nose art looked like:

I hope you can read the text......it's true......the text "wulfe Hound" was spelt incorrectly in some of the articles I read.  they broke the nose glass to get at the Norden bomb sight.........unknown why Flickinger didn't destroy it.

of course......it could be possible for the art to be on both sides.........I've never seen it though.  it does save me though...the Germans did remove it.   note the striping on the prop blades.......something that the Germans didn't do on their own aircraft.

vulnerable parts of the B 17 was marked out and shown to fighter pilots,  so they would have a head's up on where to strike.  the wing tanks were highlighted,  causing manufacturers of later models to move them further outboard.   something I didn't know,  but located just aft of the top gunner bubble on both sides of the bulge atop the fuselage,  there are compartments for rafts,  in the event that a water landing was made.

paint is going to be fun to do for this one........a lot of fading has occurred.   99% of the early model B 17's were painted olive drab with gray under belly.  it wasn't until later model emerged,  that they stopped painting them,  leaving them in their natural aluminum.  some were painted in the field,  or simply dolled up..........some even got camo,  leaving no real bad way to paint a B 17   

one thing I forgot to mention about this bird......when it crash landed,  the under belly turret was in the down position.   it was never repaired and likely removed.  I will need to patch over the hole somehow.  it's likely that some of the damaged interior wasn't repaired or replaced,  unless it was important.  some of the captured B'17's were never used and were cannibalized for parts.   for this reason,  and the simplicity of the kit at the time,  doing interior embellishments is not in the cards.  I'll do what I need to,  but I want to focus on the exterior.  as you said........not too many planes have been modeled relating to this subject matter.

[popeye the sailor]

as mentioned,  this particular kit was produced in 1989.   it's still a rather simple kit for Revell,  but some of the fine points of the model,  is done much better that Lindberg did.   these pictures are a bit blurry,  but they are good enough for you to see the differences.  the decal sheet is still a bit vague,  but they are a better match to the actual plane that was to be modeled.  I will be ordering the Wulfe Hound decals...they are made by Kits-World in 1:72 scale.  I can also get them in 1:48 scale,  but 1:72 is good enough for this project  

though I'll only have to do the top ball turret,  they assembly is a lot more logical.  nothing is suspended of needs to be cemented to visible parts of the turret.  didn't check to see if they are movable.

there are bomb bay doors.......but I may show them closed.   nothing exciting.......just two bombs shown in some sort of rack.  if I don't show them,  I will remove the bombs and used them for the other model.

there is glass for the tail gunner position.........glad to see that   

here is a better picture of the bomb rack.  I think it might be fun to make a stand for her too.......I'll need to drill a hole and add a button for the pin.

the engines and nacelles are the same as the Lindberg kit.   in the more recent Memphis Belle kit {2011},  the engines are separate and are comprised of multiple parts.   even the turbo chargers are a separate part..........there is a lot of detail.   

should be a fun build........time to tear open the bag!  

[CDW]

Looking forward to the model AND the history. Great subject material.

[popeye the sailor]

thanks Craig....as I look more into the book,  I noticed that a couple other planes from the 303 BG fell prey.  I should mention that I got the copy from Amazon...paid $20.00 for it.  it's already proving to be worth it's weight.  it does make me wonder if this was a common wartime practice by other nations?  glad to have you look'in in  

 

[mtaylor]

It was common for almost all the countries in the war to try to salvage or capture enemy planes, tanks, etc. in WWII.  Part of the "know your enemy" thinking of all sides.

[popeye the sailor]

there is a glossary in the back of the book that lists all the planes that KG 200 used.......it's a very extensive list!  so far,  I've read about 30 pages into it....it covers the end of the Great war,  Hitler's rise to power,  and the early formation of the KG.   the Dornier Do 17 and the Heinkel He 111 were first produced as airliners.......as the Luftwaffe grew and expanded under Goring,  their rolls changed.  the roll of the KG 200 was primarily for reconnaissance......but their roll got a lot bigger later on.   the call lettering still has me confused.........it received the DL-XC call letters early on,  but I read that when the plane was sent to 1/KG 200 in Sept of '43,  the call letters were changed to A3-E3.   I have yet to see any pictures of the plane with these markings.  the plane was used in a number of secret missions...what became of it can be read here:

Wulfe Hound

 

I've ripped the plastic bag.......sizing it up at the moment.    scale is an odd character.......I measured the wingspan of the Revell B 25 @ 1:48..........it has a 17 inch wingspan.  so does this model @ 1:72 !     the plastic is in my opinion,  a very deep olive drab.  I'm thinking a primer is in order.  thinking about the faded look,  I'm not sure if dry brushing or simply mixing the paint,  would be a good way to do it.   

the belly turret is going to be tough.......it has rises around the hole,  which would need to be cut out.  sanding is really not an option here.......don't want to ruin the rivet detail.

[lmagna]

30 minutes ago, popeye the sailor said:

the belly turret is going to be tough.......it has rises around the hole,  which would need to be cut out.  sanding is really not an option here.......don't want to ruin the rivet detail.

You might look into the products of this company: http://www.archertransfers.com/SurfaceDetailsAircraft.html They have rivets and patches in 1/72nd that you could use to replace the missing detail. I would think that even if you were able to retain the original rivet detail they would have had to have a patch riveted in place to cover the hole where the turret was originally located. 

Edited January 6, 2020 by lmagna

[mtaylor]

6 hours ago, popeye the sailor said:

there is a glossary in the back of the book that lists all the planes that KG 200 used.......it's a very extensive list!  so far,  I've read about 30 pages into it....it covers the end of the Great war,  Hitler's rise to power,  and the early formation of the KG.   the Dornier Do 17 and the Heinkel He 111 were first produced as airliners.......as the Luftwaffe grew and expanded under Goring,  their rolls changed. 

As I recall, the B-17 was originally designed to be an airliner.  When the Army Air Corps needed a bomber, they reworked it into the B-17.

[lmagna]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

As I recall, the B-17 was originally designed to be an airliner. 

I think that in this case it was more of the other way around. The Boeing B-17 was a descendant of the earlier YB-15 and possibly some influence from the 314 Clipper seaplane.  From the B-17 research and development Boeing came out with the Model 307 in 1938 with many parts in common with the B-17. If one looks at the Model 307 with it's pressurized cabin and other features it is not hard to see the beginnings of the B-29 though, and I think it would be safe to say that the B-29 was based on the Model 307 passenger liner, with possibly B-24 wings. 

 

The Germans on the other hand were trying to build an air force under treaty limitations that didn't allow them to really have an air force, (Or an effective navy for that matter) and went to great lengths to develop combat ability in other guises well into the late 30s when they stopped pretending.  

 

I have no  research stating this, but timelines, machinery, design, and abilities seem to bear it out.

Edited January 7, 2020 by lmagna

[Canute]

I'm pretty sure the B-17 was it's own design, but the B-29, 307, B-50 and the C-97 shared a lot of parts. The double bubble fuselage and a lot of the wings and engines.  I had to refuel behind  KC-97s in Europe and they were pokey, even with the jet pods under the wings.

 

Lou, you are correct about the Luftwaffe. Trained pilots on gliders, sent planes and crews to Spain in their civil war.

[thibaultron]

The weird thing about the German bombers, is that they never developed a 4 engine bomber, even though they had a 4 engine airliner, that they used as a reconnaissance aircraft. They used them to track Naval and convoy ships.

[lmagna]

I don't think Germany ever felt the need to expend the money or resources on a long range/heavy lift bomber. They almost always had bases close enough to their intended targets to get the job done. Most of their long range needs were for transport and reconnaissance, mostly over ocean. 

 

I could be wrong but I believe the German long range needs were mostly covered by the FW 200 Condor, and later the Junkers JU-290 with very few of the later built. In the case of the Condor, at least some were fitted as bombers but their load ability was no where near that of the allied heavy bombers. The only heavy German bomber built in any numbers that I am aware of is the Heinkel He-177. Even though it only had two engines it had similar abilities to the allied heavy bombers. I think there were a few prototype four engine and six engine designs either built or designed for longer and heavier use as bombers and such but I am not certain how far they were able to progress on those designs.  

 

What I would consider stranger than the Germans not having a strategic heavy bomber was that fact that Japan, who had a true need for such an aircraft, never developed one beyond prototype status. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by lmagna

[ccoyle]

6 hours ago, thibaultron said:

The weird thing about the German bombers, is that they never developed a 4 engine bomber, even though they had a 4 engine airliner, that they used as a reconnaissance aircraft. They used them to track Naval and convoy ships.

Part of the reason the Germans never deployed four-engine bombers in number was philosophical. All the combatants of the Great War engaged in strategic bombing, but by the late 1930s really only the British and Americans still had both the political will and the nascent equipment to implement such a policy in the event of a future conflict. Germany had switched its attention to utilizing air power as mobile artillery in the Blitzkrieg combined arms doctrine, and after their early successes in 1939/40 it did not appear that they would need any strategic bombing capability. By the time it became apparent that the war would be a protracted one, Germany was well behind in the development of heavy bombers, which is why the He 177 Greif wasn't introduced until 1942. By then, almost all of Germany's output of aircraft engines, including the Greif's DB 601s, were needed for fighters for the defense of the Reich. As happened in other instances, Germany's efforts at heavy bombers were another example of too little, too late.

[popeye the sailor]

basically,  that's how they started out Ron.......they were using airliners as reconnaissance planes.  they left the marking on to hide the purpose.  Russia and the surrounding countries knew it though,  but didn't do anything about it.  you might say that their heavy aircraft was developed from the planes they had on hand......Dornier and Heinkel.  Junkers {JU 86 & 88's} I believe had pressurized cabins,  which could fly as high as 41,000 ft

[Canute]

Actually, the He -177 was a 4 engine bomber, but it had 2 motors in each of the nacelles. Engine fires were a bugaboo, along with the landing gear collapsing under those nacelles. Like Chris said, all engines had to go into production of Reich Defense fighters. Thankfully, the Me262 being developed in mid war spent so much time messing around with making it into a dive bomber that they didn't have enough to form up full fighter wings. They had squadrons of 262s and protection squadrons of FW-190 and Ta 152s to cover them in their takeoff and landing phases.

 

Look up or find a copy of "Warplanes of the Third Reich" by William Green. It's a very large tome. There is a lot of info on all this in Green's book. And black & white pictures.

[popeye the sailor]

there was another plane too..........read it this afternoon........but it too had problems with engines.   they really weren't looking for long range....they did more R+D on their armor.   they were capturing quite a few B 17's and B 24's anyway,  so they really didn't have to worry about it.  the book has quite a list of aircraft that the KG acquired.  some pictures in the middle of the book are in color,  and most of the black 'n whites do have some descriptions of how they were painted.

 

today,  I cleaned up the underbelly wing parts........they will get a primer spray,  before they get the yellow coat.  I was looking through the White ensign paints that Lou sent me,  and I do believe I have the paint figured out.  I

    I might have the missing turret thing solved as well.  

[lmagna]

22 hours ago, Canute said:

Actually, the He -177 was a 4 engine bomber

Just goes to show that one can learn something new every day. I suppose I can chalk it up to a general lack of interest in the everyday aircraft of the Luftwaffe but that is no excuse in reality. Using two engines side by side rather than inline seems an odd way to deal with the horsepower requirements but it seems that when most of the bugs were worked out the design was reasonably effective. It appears that more than 700 of the later models were produced by the latter stages of the war. But to my eye they were pretty ugly aircraft!

 

To make an interesting companion to Denis' Wulfe Hound though is this aircraft:

 

Sure proof of what Mark said above, everyone was doing it. 

[popeye the sailor]

has to be an He 111 variant........looked through the pictures in the book.  I saw some close....but the shape of the rudder had me stumped.   most of the Dornier's had the dual rudder set up.   also,  you need to take into consideration,   that other countries bought aircraft too,  as is the case with this example....the US sold B 17's to the British and French.

this is either a B 17C or D.  note the narceled waist gunner windows.   they were outfitted for guns in the Y1B and E variants  and were built........but they were intended for civil and rescue planes.   they were first developed back in 1935 on the model 299 B 17,  but were never used.  it also had what is know as the "Cheyenne" tail...not out fitted for the tail gunner position.

 

the decals have been ordered......and I have enough of the other decal sheet to do a few other bits.  I need to do the white 'tape' on my own,  which I can do easily with white decal paper,  cut into thin strips.  I was going to use gray primer for the underside of the wings,  but I recalled I had that bottle of flat white primer,  included in the paints I got from Lou.  I also got a large bottle of olive green,  but it looks rather thick.......I will need to thin it and see if it's still good.  funny.......I forgot all about these paints when I did the Nine o Nine........silly me   I decided to prime because of the color plastic...it's very dark and I figured it might give the yellow a terrible hue.

the upper wing parts will get the olive drab.......along with a light spray of med green to lighten her up.  the olive showing through should give it enough to appear faded

the decal sheet coming will supply her number.......I have a decal 'B' call letter,  that I will put on prior to the light med spray.......it need to be slightly visible through the fade,  as if the Germans tried to remove it,  without total success.  I was going to use the underbelly turret for the stand.......I still may........but I did remove the molded build up {it doesn't look too bad}.  I have a couple of ideas for the stand......should be interesting to see.

   looking over the parts....you can see that there really aren't a whole lot.......there are no bulkheads to speak of......just the pilot platform.  with this,  I did cement the bomb bay doors closed.  I did it now instead of later, so I can paint the underbelly with them in place.  the port half can be seen above.

more to come....

[lmagna]

4 hours ago, popeye the sailor said:

.the US sold B 17's to the British and French.

I think the picture is an He-177 Denis. I thought it was interesting in that it is clearly a German aircraft, with invasion stripes and British insignia. Wander what they were doing when the picture was taken?

 

I am not certain about the French/B-17. France fell to the Germans after only seven weeks of fighting so was not really a good candidate for supplying weapons, even if there had been time. Briton on the other hand not only received aircraft but ships, weapons, and all kinds of stuff, mostly through Lend Lease I believe. They were equipped with the B-17 and Catalina and had been using them in combat before the US even entered the war. Remember, it was a Catalina that relocated the Bismark and aided in a small way her sinking. B-17s were part of the RAF throughout the war and extended through all of the models. They also received and used a bunch of B-24s even before the US entered the war and continued getting them even after they were able to start equipping units with Lancasters.

Edited January 10, 2020 by lmagna

[lmagna]

I thought there had been OD green in the stuff I sent you and was kind of surprised when you said you didn't have any for the 909. On my computer the plastic OD color of this kit looks almost black. 

[thibaultron]

On a note about the C/D model shown above. As I'm sure you know the later models had the spine at the tail, and a tailgunner. With the earlier models, there was no room for a tail gun. That is not the reason the spine and thicker aft fuselage was added though. During a flight in an earlier model B-17, it encountered a violent storm. As the crew desperately tried to make it to an airfield, the tail was twisting around so badly that the rivets were failing and the aft section of the plane was slowly coming apart. Finally the pilot ordered the rest of the crew to bail out while he fought to keep the plane in the air. The crew made it out safely, but the pilot, who could not leave the controls, without the plane immeadeately crashing, died when it finally came apart. After this, is when they added the spine to stiffen the tail, and then had room to add a tailgun.

[lmagna]

Again, learned something I didn't know first thing in the morning. I new about the changes, but not necessarily why. Thanks Ron. 

[popeye the sailor]

of the C and D models,  they only built around 80 of them........the plane was going through constant modifications.  they settled on the B 17 F and G........of these two models,  they built over 12,000.  the only reasoning I read about the development,  was they wanted the tail reconfigured to ward off rear attacks.  not to go fully into wind tunnel statistics,  a large rudder and stabilizer surface would displace a lot of air.......coupled with the turbulence caused by lift from the forward wings,  it may have been too much for them to overcome.  the plane wasn't meant for speed,  unlike most fighter planes,  which have narrowed wing surfaces.   this bird had some pretty big wings  

 

yea....no excuse Lou.....I totally spaced it.   I probably was thinking not to use any til I got into the New Jersey,  so I'd know what paints I could use.  but the way white ensign designates their paint....if I stuck with U.S. army colors,  I'd have never touched the naval stuff   I've already made use of a few colors in other projects.   

[lmagna]

That's OK Denis

 

If I was to go looking for colors in my paints right now it would probably take me an hour to find each one! 

[Javlin]

I read a book years ago about the KG-200 very interesting read looking forward to more of the build Denis. Kevin

[Canute]

Wise move to use a light primer, Denis. Yellow (and red) are tough to paint onto dark colors. Too translucent.

 

Yes, definitely an He-177. Some Wiki history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

[popeye the sailor]

I had to thin that white down a bit Ken......it's part of the older paints I got from Lou.    he mentioned earlier that the plastic looked like it was black.  it's actually a very dark green.  the last B 17 I'm going to do next is in white plastic,  so it will be easier to deal with.  sometimes colored plastics can be a problem.    welcome to the build Kevin  

 

looking at pictures...and there are quite a few of them,  I get the impression that there is a reproduction of the plane,  like the Nine o Nine { either that,  or someone build a large R/C model of her}.  in any event......they made a goof.  the ball turret was destroyed when it belly landed in the field.  the Germans never repaired it,  and so it was removed and patched over.  I've seen pictures of this plane with the ball turret.

note under the fuselage......and the glass in the waist gunner's position.  the markings are positioned around the window........some show parts of the letters missing.   there is also clarification as to where the antenna wires are run.

the ball turret again.......now you see it........

...now you don't.  .......just silly thing......not trying to be picky   it give you an idea of what's out there.  wonder what the dealio is with the port nacelles?   after I made the revelation that I indeed DID have olive green paint,  I decided to check out to see what was viable.  I have three shades of the White Ensign paints,  which I will use the lighter one to highlight the rudder and ailerons.  then I stumbled on this bottle of Pactra paint...

the paint was very thick........and it took an unusual amount of thinner to make it viable again.   I had to add a bit more thinner on top of what I already added to be able to spray it.  the end result was good...it's still a little blotchy.

I didn't mind the blotchy-ness........it would have added to the fading.  now that the paint has fully cured,  it all gone!  so much for that thought.........   I think it was Thursday when I ordered the decals for her.........I got them today.  I'm beginning to really like Mega Hobby  

[Canute]

Colors look good, Denis. Got a little fade in the OD. Nice.

 

And you resurrected an ancient bottle of Pactra? Well done.