To add sails or not? What is your preference?

[mtaylor]

Bill,

Here's an old topic on furled sails.   There's a pdf in it which might help.  https://modelshipworld.com/topic/13903-furled-sails/

 

I'm adding the pdf to this post.

FURLED SAILS.pdf

 

[AVBiker]

For me, sailing or not sailing is not a question.....

Greetings Hubert

 

 

 

 

[Bill97]

Wow! Seeing the ships you guys have built makes me feel I am not worthy to even be blogging with you. These are incredible!  Great job. The detail painting is extremely impressive. 

[Bill97]

Looking at all these beautiful ships has me wondering what your favorite scale is?  I have always worked with models in the 1/96 to 1/100 range thinking there would be so much more detail and also pieces large enough to handle with tweezers, etc. of course I then end up with ships nearly 3’ long that take up a lot of display space. Are the smaller scale models just as, or more, enjoyable 

[Bill97]

Oh, and thanks mtaylor for the linc and PDF on furled sails. This sail thing adds a whole new dimension to the ship building hobby. In the past it was just a question of adding them or not, and if adding them just using the preformed ones that come with the kit. Not anymore!  My eyes have been opened!  For authenticity, is it always the case that if the sails are unfurled the yards are at a different position on the mast and slightly angled off 90 degrees?

[RussR]

Wow!

If I didn't know better I would have though I was looking at the real thing.

Great job Hubert.

 

The sails is what draws your eyes in. Then one starts to notice the rest the the model. 

 

My last completed model was 1/89 scale which was almost acceptable. After that I decided I need to back up and do something more my level and resources. Nothing smaller than 1/50 scale and it must have a sail plan. In the que is MS Bounty Launch 1/16 scale to hone my skills in boat building before attempt to tackle anything more ambitious. I don't want just another model. However I am about to finish MS Steamboat Chaperon at 1/48 scale that doesn't have sails.

 

It would be great if someone would produce a video series about sail building here on MSW like Chuck's planking videos.  I haven't looked at PDF that Mark posted but plan to. Thanks Mark

[Cathead]

I am no master modeller, but for my last sailing vessel I developed a sail-making method I quite liked and wrote it up here. Feel free to review it and the ensuing discussion for whatever knowledge and ideas you might want to glean.

[RussR]

Thank you Rob and Cathead,

I like the idea using paper. 

Will have to study and try it out.  Also the method in the PDF Mark posted above.

RussR

[Kevin]

i am glad this topic has come up, as i will be starting my Billings Cutty Sark within two weeks, and intend to set every sail, would love to do her in a bigger scale, but the kit will have to do 

[Bill97]

Ok. Next question in this great topic. If you make your own unfurled sails, either cloth or paper, do you go with a process that produces a formed billowed sail or a flat hanging sail?

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Ok. Next question in this great topic. If you make your own unfurled sails, either cloth or paper, do you go with a process that produces a formed billowed sail or a flat hanging sail?

Formed and billowed.          

[mtaylor]

14 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Looking at all these beautiful ships has me wondering what your favorite scale is?  I have always worked with models in the 1/96 to 1/100 range thinking there would be so much more detail and also pieces large enough to handle with tweezers, etc. of course I then end up with ships nearly 3’ long that take up a lot of display space. Are the smaller scale models just as, or more, enjoyable 

Look at this from a different direction. because they're all fun and enjoyable.   Here on MSW, you'll see ships of all different scales from ships in the bottle and up.  There is a trade off on scale.  The smaller the scale, the harder it is to put in detail.  All are equally pleasing to the builder and to the observer, IMO.  

 

 

[Ab Hoving]

Just my 50 cents....

I like sails on models. They add expression and function. But if it is done, it has to be done well, as several of the shown examples clearly demonstrate. Too many people make yards without sails hoisted to the tops of the topmasts. I hate that. No sailor will ever take the trouble of hoisting an empty yard. Still, if a museum ship like the Constitution is modelled, or a navy board model is done, the absence of sails is right and logical.

I always make sails on my models, furled or not. But if added, to my opinion they should express the conditions under which they are used. Therefore the choice of sailcloth is vital. After many efforts with various sorts of unbleached cotton I came to a fabric called 'voile cotton'. Almost transparent, but it can be colored well and if applied with a spray can of starch and a hairdryer, the result can be quite satisfying:

I usually prepare my masts separated from the model as long as possible to save my poor back. Once the sail is modelled the way I want it (in this case almost no wind, drying the sails) the mast can be stepped and the final cordage is done. Almost finished now:

 

The model (1/77) is scratch-built out of paper, so a very logical step would be to also use paper for the sails. In the case of clipper ships paper can be very well used, as shown above, because of all the yards, keeping the narrow sails under control. But for my type of rigging with large sail areas I never succeeded in applying paper sails successfully. The idea remains tempting though.... 

One of the drawbacks of making models with sails in a calm is that the ropes will have to 'hang' in a natural way. I use shellac for that. Just take a length of rope, hang it with a weight for half a day after treating it with shellac. The stiff rope lets itself easily bend into a natural curve.

Just a hint, for what it's worth.

Ab

[Bill97]

This has been an extremely interesting and helpful discussion which is obvious by there being almost 50 replies. As I said in the initial topic question, I was not aware this blog site existed until I Googled ideas about sails. In retrospect it would have been very helpful during my recent Constitution build. With all the different opinions, methods, and tried and true techniques, it makes me wonder what other area of model ship building is open for so much individuality?  Be it painting, displaying, historical accuracy, etc?  I have always been a follow the instructions sort of builder. Find part “27” and glue it here and so on. I paint (enamel) colors close to the instructions or pictures I find of the actual ship. But outside of using the plastic formed sails or not using them, I have rarely, if ever strayed from the box instructions and parts. So I am now just wondering what other areas for you provide for as much thought, experimenting, and individuality as does the sails? I need to step outside the “box”!

[ccoyle]

It doesn't come up as much for discussion, but there are some modelers who will debate whether it is proper to show a ship's guns run out for action with a deck that hasn't been cleared for action and no crews manning the guns. 🤨

[Kevin]

2 hours ago, ccoyle said:

It doesn't come up as much for discussion, but there are some modelers who will debate whether it is proper to show a ship's guns run out for action with a deck that hasn't been cleared for action and no crews manning the guns. 🤨

Unless your name is Dafi

[GrandpaPhil]

Personally, I like sails.  They add a lot of character to a model, in my opinion.

 

I didn’t billow them and I wish I had, but this entire model was an experiment.

[Bill97]

Hey guys I know this is not the correct blog for this question but I am wondering since you have been so helpful if I could just simply ask you another question here. 

For the first time I am using acrylics on my new Cutty Sark build. Until this point I have always used enamels. I purchased an airbrush kit and am using Vallejo acrylic airbrush paints to do some nice effects on the deck and other parts. Once finished and thoroughly dry I want to seal the deck for protection with a matt or satin finish. What should I use? Do not know if I can put solvent based laquer, polyurethane, or other similar product over acrylics. Or, do I need to use some kind of water based top coat?  After all the work I have done getting the aged look to the deck I would hate to see it ruined by putting something wrong over the acrylic. Any help andadvice would be greatly appreciated.

 

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•  #1

Posted 15 hourFor the first time I am using acrylics on my new Cutty Sark build. Until this point I have always used enamels. I purchased an airbrush kit and am using Vallejo acrylic airbrush paints to do some nice effects on the deck and other parts. Once finished and thoroughly dry I want to seal the deck for protection with a matt or satin finish. What should I use? Do not know if I can put solvent based laquer, polyurethane, or other similar product over acrylics. Or, do I need to use some kind of water based top coat?  After all the work I have done getting the aged look to the deck I would hate to see it ruined by putting something wrong over the acrylic. Any help andadvice would be greatly appreciated.

[mtaylor]

Bill, I suggest you ask that here:  https://modelshipworld.com/forum/21-painting-finishing-and-weathering-products-and-techniques/    You'll probably get more answers and not highjack this topic.

[Bill97]

Understand mtaylor.  I posted the question there already but did not get any replies. I know this is not the correct location for the question but since I started the topic and a number of modelers were great in their responses, I hoped just a quick reply from them would be OK, and would not highjack my topic. I was needing a quick answer. Will try to keep my topics in the correct file drawer in the future. 

[Bill97]

Rob I printed out the above instructions you gave for making your paper sails. I have read over it a couple times and am going to practice your method before attempting to make them for my Cutty Sark. I hope you don’t mind if I from time to time ask you a question or clarification on what may seem to be simple or obvious. 

[rwiederrich]

15 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Rob I printed out the above instructions you gave for making your paper sails. I have read over it a couple times and am going to practice your method before attempting to make them for my Cutty Sark. I hope you don’t mind if I from time to time ask you a question or clarification on what may seem to be simple or obvious. 

 

 

Bill, if I can assist in any way, please let me know.  Here are some recent pictures of the sails on my current project, Glory of the Seas.  A mix of furled and set.  Trying to depict her in the only image of her under sail.

 

Rob

[Bill97]

Great Rob. Thanks. From looking at the pictures and reading your instructions I think I am understanding but I do have a few clarification questions. (1) In your instructions you mention knowing the size 12~24”.  Not completely sure I know what you mean there. I have the molded plastic sails that came in the kit. Could I just match the size of each of them?  (2) It looks like the vertical lines across the sail are the ones you drew in. Is that correct?  And for the spacing could I again mimic the lines on the plastic sails!  (3) and the last question is about the edging you put around. I understand you only put it on the top and sides, not the bottom?  And it also looks as if on the larger sails you have 2 horizontal strips about mid way, and one on the smaller sail. 

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Great Rob. Thanks. From looking at the pictures and reading your instructions I think I am understanding but I do have a few clarification questions. (1) In your instructions you mention knowing the size 12~24”.  Not completely sure I know what you mean there. I have the molded plastic sails that came in the kit. Could I just match the size of each of them?  (2) It looks like the vertical lines across the sail are the ones you drew in. Is that correct?  And for the spacing could I again mimic the lines on the plastic sails!  (3) and the last question is about the edging you put around. I understand you only put it on the top and sides, not the bottom?  And it also looks as if on the larger sails you have 2 horizontal strips about mid way, and one on the smaller sail. 

 

The size 12~24 is referencing the size of the sail panels.  Some sails utilized a 12" panel that makes up the sail and it gives the sail its vertical lines.  Some sails used double wide panels...24.  this depended on the bolt of material the sail maker used.

 

Yes the lines I drew are representative of the panel lines.

Yes you can copy each sail as it is on the plastic sheet....however the *stretch* of each sail must be taken into consideration when making them.

As far as adding the top and side banding...(other then the  belly band and the reef point band)... they are all I add.  I tried to add the foot band...but because the sail must have that *Natural* curve along its lower edge...adding paper to this edge is quite difficult.  so because of the scale....I left it off of all the sails.  It's omission, hardly does noticed and having a wrinkled band is unacceptable...and cutting a curved band for each sail was far to argueous.

 

Lastly...the belly and reef point band can be one in the same or separate, depending on the particular sail you are modeling.  Just follow the design on your plastic sail sheet...you can also transfer the panel lines from the plastic sails to the paper ones.

 

Let me know how it goes.   Remember...experiment often if you desire to solidify your technique.

Don;t forget to visit my Build log for the Great Republic...there I posted some images of the sails in stages of their construction.

 

Rob

[Bill97]

Thanks Rob. I have searched for your build of the Great Republic but can’t find it in the quick index. Where can I find it?

[WalrusGuy]

Rob, would you still recommend plain white copy paper for models of scale 1:64? If it's too thin for this scale, which material would you suggest instead? I am thinking of adding sails to my next model (Pickle) once I finish the Syren. 

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Thanks Rob. I have searched for your build of the Great Republic but can’t find it in the quick index. Where can I find it?

 

I'm sorry...just look at my sig line beneath any comment I make, you will see the models I am working on.  the Great Republic's log is there to review.

The sail making portion begins on page #17 post #505.  If you follow along you will note that even my own knowledge and skill improves...and I made some revelations on the 3rd and 4 sails on page #19.  I originally failed to take into consideration the amount of paper required to make the *Billow* of the sail.  I needed to add slightly more material to the height of the sail to make sure it reaches properly down to the next yard and the sheets are well drawn through the sheaves of the lower yard.     The error can be see on other folks examples of their own sails.   It really isn't a big deal, but a fully set sail had its clue points drawn down snugly to the lower yard.  Hope this helps.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

6 hours ago, WalrusGuy said:

Rob, would you still recommend plain white copy paper for models of scale 1:64? If it's too thin for this scale, which material would you suggest instead? I am thinking of adding sails to my next model (Pickle) once I finish the Syren. 

 

Personally I do not think it is too thin for that scale...but if you are still questioning...simply get a hold of some thicker ply paper.  Copier paper comes in all manner of thicknesses.  Just go to your paper supply store and ask for a sample of some of their thicker stock to compare.  For larger sails...you might consider getting some of the larger sheets used for official documents.

 

Also remember, you will be painting the paper sail as well(both sides), so this will also add dimension.

Keep me posted if you will...of your progress...

 

Rob

[flying_dutchman2]

 

On 6/3/2020 at 6:46 PM, RussR said:

In my opinion a sailing ship without sails is a raft. A sailing ship sould have sails (furled or unfurled). The model to me looks unfinished without sails. All of your rigging will be viewable from different angles anyway.

If I am going take years to finish why stop at the sails?

I am a bit late to comment, but I so agree with the above. I hear lots of modelers say that the sails hide the rigging. That is a load of manure. 

When you don't include the sails, the model is not finished. 

 

Marcus 

[dvm27]

1 hour ago, flying_dutchman2 said:

 

I am a bit late to comment, but I so agree with the above. I hear lots of modelers say that the sails hide the rigging. That is a load of manure. 

When you don't include the sails, the model is not finished. 

 

Marcus 

Unless you are building an Admiralty style model! But personally, I find that very few kit sails look realistic. They are usually over scale and don't hang realistically. I think properly furled sails can greatly enhance a model but these are also difficult to make in a realistic fashion. Obviously, Rob's example above is an excellent representation of what they should look like.