HMS Triton by Justin P. - FINISHED - Scale 1:48 - Cross Section

[Justin P.]

Prep. 

 

This will be my first wholly scratch built project.   Im undertaking this in addition, and as as a distraction, from my longer-term project HMS Syren by Chuck Passaro and Model Shipways.   Ive spent quite a lot of time looking over the various build logs, both more recent and those recovered from pre-crash MSW.   I had initially wanted to experiment with the more rare woods, but after getting a sense for their availability and expense, I thought it better to stick to the more common woods for this first attempt.   While I would have liked to achieve the contrasts that other builders have achieved using more exotic woods, Im hoping to achieve something similar with some subtle staining.   We'll see how successful that turns out.

 

That said, Ill be using primarily Maple for the frames and deck framing and Cherry for the keel and keel components, planking and assorted deck fittings.   While some way off right now, Im also hoping to experiment with incorporating Walnut for traditionally darker features and possibly Wenge for the wales.     Ive made an initial purchase through Ocooch Hardwoods utilizing the timber plan originally provided by @ChadB from his gorgeous build. Aside from my making some species substitutions,  I found his plan to be immeasurably helpful in preparing my order and want to be sure he gets the credit that is due. Reading through the many later Triton builds, I think his contribution has been valuable to others as well.  

 

In addition to this other prep, Ive finally added three new titles to my library which have also been mentioned by many in the Triton cohort:

 

Dodds and Moore, "Building the Wooden Fighting Ship"

Frolich, "The Art of Ship Modeling"

Goodwin, "The Construction and Fitting of the English Man-Of-War, 1650 - 1830"

 

...as well, I have been intending to finally invest in Antscherl's "The Fully Framed Model" series.  

 

Day One.  

 

For the first stages of this build, Ive only ordered the Maple and Cherry, in a quantity that should take me through much of the construction phases of the build and with a healthy buffer for mistakes.  Ocooch does not supply wood pre-milled to the 5/16" thickness required for the Keel components, so after cutting them out from a sheet of 3/8" Cherry, I took them down with the Byrnes thickness sander.   I then took the Keel and milled out the rabbet using my Proxxon MF70 and the appropriate bit.   Sadly I was so focused on getting it right, that I neglected to stop and take a picture of this step (UPDATE: Photos added).  

 

Luckily, all went well here and Im excited to move on.  Im not fooling myself though, I know this step is really nothing compared to the challenge of building the frames and Ive got a lot to think about.  The next step is to prepare the building jig, which Im hoping to move onto in the next few days.   As this is a concurrent build I suspect progress will be slow, but Im looking forward to it:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Justin P.

[VTHokiEE]

Awesome! So excited to follow you on this as I want to do either this cross section or Echo in the relatively near future. The whole ordering wood part and not having a bandsaw has made me apprehensive about diving in (and I don’t multi-task, I need to finish what I have in front of me first).

[WalrusGuy]

Guess I'll have the front row seat! Really interested to see how you tackle this. I also plan to build a fully scratch POF model some day, and a small cross-section would be a great start! I'll be learning a lot from your log. Good luck!!

[Justin P.]

24 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

The whole ordering wood part and not having a bandsaw has made me apprehensive about diving in

Indeed!   I agonized over this bit for a while.   I have a scroll saw that Ive never really liked using, and did a number of trial runs before ultimately deciding to go the band saw route.   After trying out cutting the frames on a friends saw, I decided the band saw was definitely something I wanted for this build.   I didn't invest a lot and picked up a Ryobi 9" bench-top model for about $150.  Many people gripe about the quality of this level of saw, but I found that if you spend enough time learning how to properly set one up and investing in a good blade for the right purpose then a cheap band-saw can be a really good tool.   The subtle scroll work required by the frames for this build is easily handled by the Ryobi, and seems to cut through the 3/16" Maple like butter.  

 

If you do end up with a bandsaw, I recommend "Band Saw Clinic by Alex Snodgrass", lauded by many as the best instructional video (on You Tube) for setting up and maintaining even the cheapest bandsaws.   While the Snodgrass doesn't speak about the smaller saws, the information is just as applicable.   

 

For ordering wood, I found that lowering my standards and learning to love the more available hardwoods alleviated a lot of my anxiety

 

23 minutes ago, WalrusGuy said:

Guess I'll have the front row seat!

Thanks for joining up early!   I hope I can contribute something of value that isn't already well covered by the builders who've come before me!

Edited January 20, 2021 by Justin P.

[VTHokiEE]

5 minutes ago, Justin P. said:

I didn't invest a lot and picked up a Ryobi 9" bench-top model for about $150

This is really helpful - I see “everyone” talking about 14” saws and then I’m staring at a $11/1200 laguna and questioning my commitment 😂 (of course after the bandsaw I also need the thickness sander and while the Byrnes looked great there’s also a very expensive Laguna with a DRO). That’s about when I stop, take a deep breathe, and just browse the build logs. 
 

Did you simply add the widths of the sheets (factoring some kerf for cuts) and then buy a few larger pieces? I feel like hard maple and/or cherry (heck I’ve even thought about using Chuck’s Alaskan cedar to skip the saw route) would work just fine.

[Justin P.]

14 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

Did you simply add the widths of the sheets (factoring some kerf for cuts) and then buy a few larger pieces? I feel like hard maple and/or cherry (heck I’ve even thought about using Chuck’s Alaskan cedar to skip the saw route) would work just fine.

Actually no.   Im not doing any resawing at all.   The Ryobi couldn't handle that type of work unless resawing very small billets.   I ordered all my wood pre-milled to the thickness required by the parts laid-out in the Triton plans.   There are a few parts, like the Keel and others that are stipulated at a thickness that Ocooch does not provide and so the Byrnes was required to take it down.   The band-saw is for cutting out the keel parts from sheet stock.   For example, a single side of a frame is 3/16" making the assembled frame a full 3/8" when complete.   Therefore I ordered 4" x 24" x 3/16" Maple sheets to cut them from, make sense?     

 

See here: https://ocoochhardwoods.com/scroll-saw-lumber/

 

As I said in my first post, ChadB did a lot of the work going through and making a list of required dimensions, I made some species substitutions, verified the required thicknesses from the plans and ordered all the wood pre-milled.   There will be minimal re-thicknessing required on my end.   Most of the work will be on my Byrnes table saw and the new band saw. The drill press was added to make final sanding of the frame parts easier using a drum sander attachment (total for both < $200) and because I just wanted a drill press.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Justin P.

[ChadB]

Good luck Justin! Looks like you are off to a good start! Don't be afraid of cutting out frames- it's not too bad. The key is finding the sweet spot where you don't take too much 'extra" off of the frame piece but don't leave so much that you are fairing for days. I'll be following along!

 

Chad

[Justin P.]

Frame Tests

 

So today I took a crack at cutting some frame components.   I am learning a lot...  namely, that I need to practice a lot.   I fixed the templates to the sheet with an Elmers glue stick to avoid deforming the paper and it seemed the more more easily reversible of the various options.   Im trying to fit the pieces between the grain with a mind towards paying careful attention to the most fore and aft frame faces in particular.   At the moment Im really just viewing this first frame assembly as a practice piece, and to work out a process and decide how I want the various tools I intend to use set up.   

 

I tested a few approaches and ultimately think the band saw was the right choice.  I was able to cut within about 1-2 mm without much trouble and only had two sacrifices to the bone pile.  The first set came out a little rough, but as I went I got much better.   

 

 

 

When I really nail down a process that seems more repeatable and less experimental, Ill be sure to detail it here.

[Edwardkenway]

Hi Justin, I chose this Triton cross section as my initiation into scratch building, although I did not invest in power tools until after I built it.

A coping saw was my method of cutting  the frames, quite a laborious but somewhat relaxing job once I got into a rhythm. 

I'll be following along, good luck and have fun.

As Chad has already said, you've made a good start. 

Cheers 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Edwardkenway

[Justin P.]

On 1/23/2021 at 2:43 PM, Edwardkenway said:

A coping saw was my method of cutting  the frames, quite a laborious but somewhat relaxing job once I got into a rhythm.

Thanks!   I thought about this a long time and considered the coping saw.   I even went so far as to have a go trying to cut out a frame piece and I just didn't have the patience for it, and the considering the time requirement for each and my own limited time in the shipyard I figured a power tool was the way to go for me - and if Im honest, I also wanted a reason to buy a new tool or two ;).   

 

[Edwardkenway]

25 minutes ago, Justin P. said:

and if Im honest, I also wanted a reason to buy a new tool or two ;).   

Can't fault your logic😉

I  got a scroll saw and table saw to do Winchelsea because of the effort and time it took to cut Tritons frames.

To cut all  the frames took me best part of 36-48 hours,  basically did one complete frame each time. 

[Justin P.]

Building Jig.  

 

In the last few days I set about creating a building jig similar to other previous builders.  I had thought there might be an available cross section Jig plan in the Triton downloads section as there is one for the full POF Triton build, but came up short.   I experimented with trying to cut down a full size jig plan to create a cross section plan, but discovered there are a number of differences between the full build and the cross section, despite being both 1:48 scale sets of drawings.   In the end I created my drawing as Im sure others have done, and went to work.   

 

If anyone would like to use my drawing for their own work, I'll attach it here.   If printed at 100% on standard letter copy paper it should be accurate.   Be careful to check the lines against those of the provided drawings to be sure it is scaled and printed correctly.   

 

Triton Jig Plan_1-48_Justin P.pdf

 

Having never done this before, I did sort of invent my own process which may or may not be like how others have approached this.   I wound up using a 1/4" rough ply for the top and a 1/2" rough ply for bottom.   I bought a sheet of 2' x 2' of each and sanded an area marked out exactly to the dimensions of the printed drawing (8.5 x 11" copy paper).   I used a plain Elmers glue stick to apply the sheets.   In order to really prevent the paper deforming at this scale you really need to glue out the ply instead of the sheet - the reverse of what you might do when gluing assembly parts.   I had drawn guide lines on the ply to help with laying down the sheet of paper and help ensure that I have properly glued the entire area.  

Using my full-size table saw I then ripped down the two sheets of ply along the edge of the copy paper.   This gave me two sheets exactly 8.5 x 11" with a duplicate and well-aligned drawing mounted to each.    

I then drew in registration marks to each board edge marking the keel and the center frame.  This was important as there was a 1-2mm of difference in the alignment, so by using the registration marks I could clamp them together just right and drill the post holes so that when assembled all the lines would be true and aligned to one another top to bottom. I drilled those holes at exactly 3/8" and used 8" x 3/8" all-thread for the posts.   This provided a very secure fit, and along with the washers and nuts created a very rigid structure. 

I used a jig saw to cut out the meat of the top board interior and then a coping saw and files to finish the cut.   I then used a combination of squares and the provided drawings to make all the necessary checks.   

 

I had set this drawing up so the the distance between the top of the bottom board and top of the top board came out to exactly the distance between the floor of the keel and the upper Deck Beam Clamp mark.   Incidentally, this turns out to be roughly the same as the indicated height for the full POF jig plan.   

After that I positioned the keel in a jig mounted to the bottom board.  The jig itself is complete and ready for frames. 

As for frames, Im still working out all the steps of my process.   Trial and error, but Im close.   My drill press/drum sander setup is finally put together and is working well.   I had intended on using a 2" diameter drum but had trouble getting it to center properly causing it to wobble intolerabely.  The 1" drum works perfectly though.   Ive gotten all the components of my first "test" frame cut out and ready for a final fitting at the joints.   This step is hand work, so will proceed much more slowly to get it right.   Hard to know what the tolerances are and how falling on either side of those tolerances will effect the end result...  

 

Right: Fresh off band saw, ready for sanding.  Left: After sanding on the drum.  

 

Two halves of a single frame ready for final assembly.

 

[mtaylor]

I'm late to the party also... normal for me.    Your setup and first parts are looking good.  This was my first scratch so I'll follow along to see how it goes.

[Matt D]

Thanks for sharing the pics of you build jig.  Your setup look very precise and your frames look perfect.  This will be an excellent build!

[Justin P.]

3 hours ago, mtaylor said:

I'm late to the party also... normal for me.

Hey Mark, thanks for dropping in and thank you very much for helping me with all the questions I had getting started.   

[ChadB]

Nice looking jig and a very good start to your frames!

 

You will find that the tolerances for your frames shouldn't be a huge issue on this build since the frames are all mostly square. I think as long as you can't see the black lines of the edge of the frame drawing then you have left enough. It can't be said enough though- if in doubt leave more!

 

Chad

[Justin P.]

Frame construction process...

 

 

So as promised I'll outline in more detail how Im constructing my frames.   The reason is primarily to provide a somewhat comprehensive set-by-step for anyone thinking about starting this build.  Im sure its well documented in numerous iterations by many more skilled modelers than I, but will throw my lot in in case its helpful to someone.   My process is rather power-tool heavy, but I find the time I save using power-tools allows me a little extra to be thinking through and prototyping next steps.   Not that Im in a hurry, but with kids, a full-time job and the honey-do list, my time in the yard must be used efficiently ;).    Some of this will be repetitive, so Ill keep that bit short..

 

Step 1:

Cutting and laying out the frame components on the chosen material.  Im using Maple and Elmers Glue Stick here which Ive mentioned before as being the most reversible (I think) of the various options Ive read about.   Giving myself a "handle" but mounting the components at one end of the piece keeps my fingers away from the blade.   

Step 2:  Roughing out. 

I chose to cut my pieces out using a 9" Ryobi bandsaw.   I find this a more pleasant experience than using a scroll saw and noticed that my paper stays firmly attached as the blade only runs downward and there is no friction pulling back upwards and lifting the paper - a problem Ive noticed others have encountered.  One thing Ive noticed about these bandsaws is that they really need the time to be accurately setup otherwise they cut like a cheap power tool.   They can be very good, just put the time in.   I cut up to about 1-2mm from the plan line to give plenty of room for finishing to a more accurate shape.  

Step 3: Shaping.

Im using a drum sander setup to bring the frame pieces down to their "pre-faired" shaped.   Im using a 120 grit drum mounted to a drill press and take these down to just outside of the plan line.  As recommended by @ChadB in his build log, it is very important to leave the ends with 3-4mm worth of material so really only focus on the outside edges during this step.   

Step 4: Fitting and Cutting the Floor and 1st Futtocks

So once I reach this phase all the parts have been taken down to the plan line, leaving the ends long.   The first two components I work on are the floor futtocks.   I first use a belt sander using 400 grit, being careful to square the machine as precisely as I can and take the ends of the first futtocks down until they meet cleanly at the center when aligned over the floor futtock which sits abaft (behind) the join.   Note here I have left the Keel and Keelson notches uncut. 

After being satisfied with the join between the first futtocks I then peel the paper off the floor futtock and join the three pieces using wood glue.  Not well pictured is that Ive transferred marks of the keelson and keel notches to the top and bottom faces of the wood.  I then mount this assembly into my Proxxon MF70 mill and set about cutting out the notches, with a fitting step in between using the Cherry keelson and a duplicate keel piece I cut earlier.   This is followed by a final fitting in the jig to check level.  Also not well pictured is an alignment mark that I use to be sure the assembly is mounted into the mill vice absolutely level.

Step 5:  Final Assembly.

The rest of the process is pretty straightforward.   I first build out the blue layer, carefully sanding the ends down and checking the fit and curvature of the frame against the plans.  I use a brush with water to soften and remove each layer of paper after peeling back the ends to finalize the fit (also a trick I got from Chadb's build.)

 

Then its just about repeating these same sanding and fitting steps for red frame components and removing all the paper.   I give the whole thing a fine sanding over the face and fit into the jig for later.  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Justin P.

[Ainars Apalais]

Hi Justin

Welcome to the club:)

Looks nice start.

[Justin P.]

On 2/2/2021 at 1:46 PM, Ainars Apalais said:

Hi Justin

Welcome to the club:)

Looks nice start.

Thanks Ainars, 

 

I just caught up on your build, wow!   Out of curiousity did you ever find a good resource for the well and locker mods you incorporated into your build?   Ive noticed sever references to the "well mod" but havent found the right post on it. 

 

Thanks for checking in.

[Justin P.]

5 hours ago, Justin P. said:

Ive noticed sever references to the "well mod" but havent found the right post on it. 

Nevermind, I think I figured out the reference!  

[Ainars Apalais]

Hi Justin

My Idea to add locker, pump  room comes from ChadB built model. Thanks  him for inspiration.

When i start build your model as a guideline i use Chadb model.

"tkay11" and "AnobiumPunctatum" also help me with recommending good reference book. The Fully Framed model HMN Swan Class Sloops 1767-1780 by David Antscherl.

And of course a lot advice I found here on the forum simply browsing other models.

Putting all information together I create  my own vision about pump/locker room details and measurements.

 

I hope that the information provided will helps to you.

 

[Justin P.]

1 hour ago, Ainars Apalais said:

My Idea to add locker, pump  room comes from ChadB built model. Thanks  him for inspiration.

When i start build your model as a guideline i use Chadb model.

"tkay11" and "AnobiumPunctatum" also help me with recommending good reference book. The Fully Framed model HMN Swan Class Sloops 1767-1780 by David Antscherl.

Indeed!   I pieced this together myself when I went back and more carefully read through some of the logs.   Thanks!

[Justin P.]

All frames completed, with only one redo.

 

So far pretty pleased.  I added the cross-members and marked out the center line of each and built a frame mounting jig which Ill feature later.    Ive done a rough sanding and have begun marking out treenail locations and starting drilling them out.  Im waiting for a draw plate from Model Machines, so until that arrives I think Ive gone as far as Im able at the moment.  

 

 

[WalrusGuy]

The frames look really good!! 

[mtaylor]

Nice work on the framing.  We're a patient bunch, so we'll wait.

[Justin P.]

19 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Nice work on the framing.  We're a patient bunch, so we'll wait.

Shouldn't take too long.   The draw plate came in very quickly...    so Im just making treenails (Cherry) and testing the process on my dummy frame.  

Edited February 18, 2021 by Justin P.

[captain_hook]

That is an interesting project. I like the selfmade-jig, looks very professional. And the ribs looks very clean and neat. Keep up the good work.. 

[Justin P.]

47 minutes ago, captain_hook said:

I like the selfmade-jig, looks very professional.

I can hardly take credit for the design, or even the construction.   I followed in the footsteps of many other Triton builders in the Group Projects section, whose work informs pretty much all of my own.  

[BobG]

I just discovered your build, Justin. Wow...you're moving right along and it looks fantastic. Your build log is outstanding also. I'm afraid I'll never be so neatly organized! I'll be following along soaking up the process like a sponge. I'm sure it will be a showpiece!

 

I'm envious of the space you have for your workshop. It's looks wonderful. I've been thinking a lot about beginning to purchase some power machines and I am really interested in what machines you have and what you think of them so far. I'm close to getting the Byrnes table saw, disk sander and thickness sander. I though I'd start with those. It seems that a drill press, bandsaw, scroll saw, lathe and a milling machine would also be desirable eventually as well. In what order would you recommend buying various machines based on your experience?

 

Good luck!

 

 

[Justin P.]

2 hours ago, BobG said:

In what order would you recommend buying various machines based on your experience?

Thanks Bob!   I rreally don't have that much space to be honest.   I fit everything into a custom built cubicle-type spot in the garage: see here.   It does take a lot of organizing and cleaning, and resetting the space to keep from burying myself in bits and scrap and tools as Im working.  But I do ok.   Its very similar to my setup at work so I am familiar with working in this type of arrangement.  I keep all the power tools stored on one side and arrange them  or store them below as I need them.  For instance, I got all the timber ready for frames using the table saw and thickness sander and then stored both of them.   Then brought out the band saw and other tools for building the frames.   It looks like I have space, but there is a lot of time spent resetting.   I actually like this time because it helps me think through what Im going to try and do, kind of like a warm up - ha. 

 

As for power tools...   hard question.   I can only speak for myself here, but the absolute most important tool for me in the space is an old computer so I can easily refer back to MSW when I get stuck.   Second to that is good lighting and a small shop vac with good reach.   After that, the Byrnes Saw is probably my most important tool, and then the disc/belt sander and maybe a good rotary tool (I prefer Foredom over Dremel but have both).   Then I would just acquire what you need when you need it.   For this build Ive managed to use everything you mention so far: table saw, band saw, Byrnes Thickness sander, drill press, and micro mill.   I have a Delta midi lathe but rarely use it for modeling.   All that being said, there are folks who have achieved everything with none of these tools.   I use what I have because I have it, so why not!   It's probably not all needed by any means.     There are pro's and cons to each.   

 

If you have specific questions about any one tool, Id be happy to give you my run-down.

 

Ive collected things as I started, only having an ancient Jarmac saw that I was sure was possessed.