Danstream Posted January 14, 2022 Share #91 Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) You got quite a challenge here. I agree with you for not sacrificing another kit just to get the boom out of it. I know that some modelers source two kits to get at the end only one model, but I do not like this, perhaps I lived too long in Holland and I developed a sense for avoiding wasting things. Another possibility could be to look for Evergreen half round rods, which I know they have in their catalogue, to complete the the half rods of the Revell boom. However I recognize that this might be a rather difficult one, because you have to be lucky to find the right diameter and then anyway you will have to go through a lot of sanding to hide the joints. Then there is what Ken suggested, i.e. try to scratch it from brass rods. In this case, you would have the opportunity to build it with the appropriate diameter. Should I try it, I would try to build it like the Italeri parts, building first the soldering jigs trimmed on the Italeri parts. But this would be really a challenge for me. I wouldn't know if I would be successful in soldering truss nodes where 3 or 4 rod ends are coming together. These difficulties are one of the reasons which kept me away from building a model of this machine, which I like a lot. In fact, when I was a kid, one of my favorite TV series which I tremendously loved and which I still remember was 'Whirlbirds' which was broadcasted in Italy, where I grew up, in the mid 60s, duly dubbed in italian, of course 😁. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050077/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk In conclusion, unfortunately, I do not have any better idea to suggest at this moment, and for the Revell kit, I am stuck with building it OOB. Kind regards, Dan Edited January 14, 2022 by Danstream mtaylor, Canute, Egilman and 3 others 6 Quote Current build : Mayflower - AL 1:64 Completed non-ship builds : Spitfire MK I - 1:48, Arado 196B - 1:32, Sea Fury - 1:48, F-15C Eagle - 1:48, Hawker Tempest Mk.V - 1:48, F104S Starfighter - 1:48 "The most effective way to do it, is to do it" - Amelia Earhart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmagna Posted January 14, 2022 Share #92 Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) I agree with both Dan and Ken. Soldering the tail using brass rod would be the direction I would go if I made any attempt at scratch building the tail at all. I also would use the Italeri parts to make a jig so this would have to be done before building that kit. But then I have done this kind of soldering many times over the years with my RC boats so I do not have too many reservations about doing that kind of work. The added advantage of doing it that way is that you could almost as easily make two tail sections and both models could get the enhanced tail. Just remember that if you do choose this method that you will also have created a tail dragger and there is no space in these helicopters to hide extra weight to bring the nose back down. Plastic rod might be stronger than you think. The real aircraft after all were for all intents built that way just for that reason, to get strength from what would be normally a material too weak to do the job. Another method you have partly explored would be to round out the cast Revell tail. In that case I think I would use one or both of two methods. One would be to cut a narrow strip of sand paper, loop it over the sections of "tubbing" and sand the inside surface round. In the other I would use the tip of a #11 Exacto blade and scrape the inside edges. Either choice would be faster and easier than resorting to using a needle file. Just my two cents worth, (Only one after inflation) Edited January 17, 2022 by lmagna mtaylor, Edwardkenway, Old Collingwood and 7 others 10 Quote Lou Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence Currant builds: Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold) Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral) 1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin) Currant research/scratchbuild: Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes Non ship build log: 1/35th UH-1H Huey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landlubber Mike Posted January 15, 2022 Share #93 Posted January 15, 2022 I’d probably be reluctant to scratch the assembly. Given how distinctive and symmetrical it is, you’d really have to get it perfect or it will look odd, especially with how much visual interest the boom has. Not saying it can’t be done just I wouldn’t trust my modeling skills on that! Could always try it out and see how it goes? If you use brass, would it be too heavy and make it a tail sitter? mtaylor, Edwardkenway, king derelict and 5 others 8 Quote Mike Current Wooden builds: Amati/Victory Pegasus MS Charles W. Morgan Euromodel La Renommèe Plastic builds: SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48 Five Star Yaeyama 1/700 Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32 Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72 IJN Notoro 1/700 Akitsu Maru 1/700 Completed builds : Caldercraft Brig Badger Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700 Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350 F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72 Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48 Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48 Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16 Terminated build: HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn) On the shelf: Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits Future potential scratch builds: HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share #94 Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) On 1/14/2022 at 5:42 AM, Canute said: Oy, tough decision. Can you cobble up a fixture to do the vee parts of the boom with the thicker rod, since they look symmetrical. Thicker only because of the strength needed. Then another jig holding the vee sections vertical, so you can attach the top parts. If it was brass rod, I'd go thinner, but my soldering skills are better employed doing electrical work. 😉 In prior endeavors, years back, I attempted a corrugated engine house and a car kit. Kept unsoldering prior work. Thank the stars for CA.😁 Well Sorry for the interruption brothers, somewhere in the last two days I picked up a dose of the creeping crud and have been down for a bit, all is now well... don't know what it was but it laid me out for a couple of days... Anyways I haven't left anyone behind... {chuckle} Yeah Ken, it is a tough decision, brass is out for me as soldering is not my forte especially the thinner the wire is... also .025 plastic is just not going to work, at best it is like working with string you can tie it in knots it's so flexible... I also considered piano wire, it has the requisite stiffness, but have you ever tried to glue the stuff? So I've resolved to doing this in .050 plastic... it's still flexible but has enough stiffness to hold it's shape against a little pressure so it won't collapse the moment I hang another part on it... Construction will be simple... the only part really needing replacing is the boom itself the most visible part.... Circled in red, the forward part of the frame is going to have so many other parts grabbing attention the inner flatness will not be as noticeable.... Essentially it is a flat top surface, trapezoidal in shape with triangular frames pointing downward to a single straight keel... a simple flat tapered box structure with cross bars and diagonal braces... Side bars vertically matching each cross bar down to a single bar keel with diagonal bracing as well... fairly easy as long as the initial frame is square... so I'll approach it building it upside down starting with the top frame first then while flat install the cross bars and diagonals, just like a balsa airplane keel... An interesting thing to note, only three bolts hold the boom onto the frame with this machine. Roughly 3/8th of an inch in diameter and an inch long.... two on the top and one on the bottom... But they are made of aircraft grade steel rated at 140,000 pounds tensile strength... The boom itself will break before the bolts do... Edited January 18, 2022 by Egilman mtaylor, FriedClams, Canute and 4 others 7 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share #95 Posted January 18, 2022 On 1/14/2022 at 12:04 PM, Danstream said: You got quite a challenge here. I agree with you for not sacrificing another kit just to get the boom out of it. I know that some modelers source two kits to get at the end only one model, but I do not like this, perhaps I lived too long in Holland and I developed a sense for avoiding wasting things. Another possibility could be to look for Evergreen half round rods, which I know they have in their catalogue, to complete the the half rods of the Revell boom. However I recognize that this might be a rather difficult one, because you have to be lucky to find the right diameter and then anyway you will have to go through a lot of sanding to hide the joints. Then there is what Ken suggested, i.e. try to scratch it from brass rods. In this case, you would have the opportunity to build it with the appropriate diameter. Should I try it, I would try to build it like the Italeri parts, building first the soldering jigs trimmed on the Italeri parts. But this would be really a challenge for me. I wouldn't know if I would be successful in soldering truss nodes where 3 or 4 rod ends are coming together. These difficulties are one of the reasons which kept me away from building a model of this machine, which I like a lot. In fact, when I was a kid, one of my favorite TV series which I tremendously loved and which I still remember was 'Whirlbirds' which was broadcasted in Italy, where I grew up, in the mid 60s, duly dubbed in italian, of course 😁. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050077/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk In conclusion, unfortunately, I do not have any better idea to suggest at this moment, and for the Revell kit, I am stuck with building it OOB. Kind regards, Dan I hate wasting things too Dan, I have boxes and boxes of sprue saved, occasionally I have to throw some away to make room for other savings.... Soldering group nodes can't be anymore difficult that gluing the same, it's just a matter of choosing a course of one step at a time and following it one part at a time.... like building any framework the outer frame carries the load and the inner parts steady and stiffen/strengthen the outer frame... there is that one point where 9 tubes all come together at the same point on the model, on the real thing it is four tubes on one side and five on the other with the connection joint in between them.... much easier to do... in this case I'm only replacing the rear half with the five tubes... Whirlybirds was a favorite of a lot of people I'm finding out all over the world.... Don't worry brother chime right in with anything you might think of, I'm no expert by any means and need all the help I can get... Old Collingwood, FriedClams, Edwardkenway and 3 others 6 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share #96 Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) On 1/14/2022 at 1:05 PM, lmagna said: I agree with both Dan and Ken. Soldering the tail using brass rod would be the direction I would go if I made any attempt at scratch building the tail at all. I also would use the Italeri parts to make a jig so this would have to be done before building that kit. But then I have done this kind of soldering many times over the years with my RC boats so I do not have too many reservations about doing that kind of work. The added advantage of doing it that way is that you could almost as easily make two tail sections and both models could get the enhanced tail. Just remember that if you do choose this method that you will also have created a tail dragger and there is no space in these helicopters to hide extra weight to bring the nose back down. Plastic rod might be stronger than you think. The real aircraft after all were for all intents built that way just for that reason, to get strength from what would be normally a material too weak to do the job. Another method you have partly explored would be to round out the cast Revell tail. In that case I think I would use one or both of two methods. One would be to cut a narrow strip of sand paper, loop it over the sections of "tubbing" and sand the inside surface round. In the other I would use the tip of a #11 Exacto blade and scrape the inside edges. Either choice would be faster and easier than resorting to using a needle file. Just my two cents worth, (Only one after inflation) I though about it Lou while I was down with the crud, and for the reasons explained elsewhere I'm gonna just duplicate the Italieri tail boom, Strip sanding like you describe would work, eventually... {chuckle} and it is that brittle Revell dark olive plastic... But I think it will be easier and fast to redo it.... I think you right, a #11 or #2 xacto blade to knock down the corners then the strip sanding to round them over.... it's probably what I would do if I didn't have the materials to rebuild it... but it's a darned fine suggestion to make a tedious job less tedious.... WE gotsa talk to someone over this inflation crap, that 1 cent is now down .9 cent in just the time it took to write this... Now we all know us old peoples opinions aren't really worth anything to anyone anymore, but docking us a tenth of a cent a day just for still being around, THAT's going too far... Edited January 18, 2022 by Egilman Old Collingwood, mtaylor, lmagna and 4 others 6 1 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share #97 Posted January 18, 2022 On 1/15/2022 at 1:45 PM, Landlubber Mike said: I’d probably be reluctant to scratch the assembly. Given how distinctive and symmetrical it is, you’d really have to get it perfect or it will look odd, especially with how much visual interest the boom has. Not saying it can’t be done just I wouldn’t trust my modeling skills on that! Could always try it out and see how it goes? If you use brass, would it be too heavy and make it a tail sitter? Once you think it's through it's easy Mike, approach it like a hull half or fuselage half in balsa, keel and frames or bulkheads and it's easy peasy... With brass it would be a tail sitter, but there is a place on both models one could possibly stuff a half ounce of modeling clay into without it being seen, but it would have to be clay stuffed in, it's a very tight space.... The only tricky part would be the initial tapered trapezoidal frame, that would tell the tale on whether it would be straight or not.... once you got that, the rest is but sticking on pieces... Anyway I'm going to finding out... pretty quick.... Once I get the Italieri Boom assembled for the pattern... Gonna be a fun challenge... Canute, FriedClams, Captain Slog and 9 others 12 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Collingwood Posted January 18, 2022 Share #98 Posted January 18, 2022 Hi brother, So good to hear you took on the challenger - put on your armour and won over the "cough and colds thingy that has now become a no name thingy as its thankfully a lot less severe" - told you us model makers are tough talented creatures. OC. Edwardkenway, Canute, Egilman and 4 others 7 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share #99 Posted January 18, 2022 7 hours ago, Old Collingwood said: Hi brother, So good to hear you took on the challenger - put on your armour and won over the "cough and colds thingy that has now become a no name thingy as its thankfully a lot less severe" - told you us model makers are tough talented creatures. OC. Thanks OC, yeah I'm feeling better now... and I was hoping this was going to be an easy reconstruction... but now I have the Italieri Frame together my heart sunk... Italieri got it WRONG!!! Yep they screwed it up... Here is a pic of the two frames side by side... The Revell Frame has it's top bars just fitted the Italeri Frame is glued... They do look nice what's the difference between the two... The direction of the diagonals on the top framing... the revell goes one way the italieri the other way... both have the locating holes for the driveshaft up as they should be.... So which one is correct and which is wrong... H13-D... The diagonals go from left to right, front to back... H-13H... Left to right front to back... they didn't change the design between models, so the italeri kit has the upper boom diagonals backwards.... Now it's not really a problem I can gently break each connection flip it over and go thru the gluing process once more... then drill new driveshaft positioning holes... One more reminder to always check your sources... It's not a mistake on my part... in some ways I wish it was, it is a mistake on the kit manufacturers part... But the experience with gluing .050 plastic rod is giving me second thoughts about building a new boom for the revell kit... there are other differences between the kits actually present on the real aircraft.... the boom is slightly narrower, the spacings are a bit different, the entire main frame is a different design which doesn't match very well with the "D" model boom... I think with the experience of gluing the Italieri frame together (and now having to do it a second time) I don't think I want to do an entire aircraft airframe one piece at a time in .050 rod.... I'm down for a challenge but that is a bit much of a challenge... (I didn't want to take two months to build these things) so I'm probably going to just do them out of the box... I mean I'm also looking at the pic of the two frames side by side, how much am I going to gain by all that work? Not a whole lot if you ask me... Obvious configuration errors in the kit I'll fix, but rebuilding a whole frame? not so sure.... Any advice or opinions? are you guys seeing what I'm seeing that the difference in presentation really isn't that much? FriedClams, Landlubber Mike, ccoyle and 10 others 11 2 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccoyle Posted January 18, 2022 Share #100 Posted January 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Egilman said: Any advice or opinions? are you guys seeing what I'm seeing that the difference in presentation really isn't that much? "Isn't that much" is a matter of opinion. If it will keep you up at night, then fix it. Personally, it wouldn't keep me up at night. 😉 Egilman, FriedClams, mtaylor and 6 others 9 Quote Chris Coyle Greer, South Carolina When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk. - Tuco Current builds: Brigantine Phoenix, Hawker Hurricane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landlubber Mike Posted January 18, 2022 Share #101 Posted January 18, 2022 I tend to agree with Chris. It's supposed to be fun, not something you are going to dread for a long slog of the build. You could always try scratch building one on the side, and if it's going well, keep at it. If it is causing too much angst, just go back to the kit. Whichever direction you take, I'm sure it will look fantastic in the end. ccoyle, Edwardkenway, lmagna and 8 others 11 Quote Mike Current Wooden builds: Amati/Victory Pegasus MS Charles W. Morgan Euromodel La Renommèe Plastic builds: SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48 Five Star Yaeyama 1/700 Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32 Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72 IJN Notoro 1/700 Akitsu Maru 1/700 Completed builds : Caldercraft Brig Badger Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700 Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350 F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72 Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48 Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48 Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16 Terminated build: HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn) On the shelf: Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits Future potential scratch builds: HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted January 18, 2022 Share #102 Posted January 18, 2022 Here's my $.02. Do what you want or feel a need to do. It's hobby, a model. Not life and death. We, for the most part, aren't rivet counters all the time except maybe on our own projects. If you hadn't pointed out the boom issues, how many of us would have noted it tossed a rock at you? Old Collingwood, lmagna, Egilman and 4 others 7 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmagna Posted January 18, 2022 Share #103 Posted January 18, 2022 I'm with Mark, Mike, and Chris........... But then I do like to throw rocks! How many more mistakes can you point out that no one else has seen? Luckily my aim over the years has become erratic at best! Landlubber Mike, Egilman, FriedClams and 4 others 4 3 Quote Lou Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence Currant builds: Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold) Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral) 1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin) Currant research/scratchbuild: Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes Non ship build log: 1/35th UH-1H Huey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 19, 2022 Author Share #104 Posted January 19, 2022 Thanks my friends... I should probably stop being so critical of myself and just get on with building... Ok Split the upper tubing out, (didn't break it) drilled the new driveshaft locating holes..... and glued it back into place.... It's easy now to see the differences between the two... I was lucky, the third hole closest to the tail split on one side and almost broke but I managed to get it back in without completely breaking it... It wasn't easy.... Anyways, thanks for the support brothers, It's APPRECIATED! You can't really tell the insides of the Revell boom are flat, so I don't know what all the fuss over the years has been with the kit, It's a fairly accurate "H" model of the Bell-47/H-13 with details that are not seen on other brands... (as long as you don't do the totally fictitious "Mash" version) All in all I think it's a nice kit, much better than it's reputation now that I've had a real detailed look at it.... Things should go smoother from here on... Edwardkenway, hof00, FriedClams and 11 others 14 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danstream Posted January 19, 2022 Share #105 Posted January 19, 2022 Good repair on the diagonals of the boom. I agree with your decision to go on OOB ... life is too short ... 😁 By the way, the tubes of the Revell one looks thinner. Cheers, Dan Old Collingwood, king derelict, FriedClams and 5 others 8 Quote Current build : Mayflower - AL 1:64 Completed non-ship builds : Spitfire MK I - 1:48, Arado 196B - 1:32, Sea Fury - 1:48, F-15C Eagle - 1:48, Hawker Tempest Mk.V - 1:48, F104S Starfighter - 1:48 "The most effective way to do it, is to do it" - Amelia Earhart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king derelict Posted January 20, 2022 Share #106 Posted January 20, 2022 Great decision to correct the diagonals. I suspect paint and shading will obscure any flatness of the tubes Alan Old Collingwood, lmagna, FriedClams and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 21, 2022 Author Share #107 Posted January 21, 2022 On 1/19/2022 at 12:05 PM, Danstream said: Good repair on the diagonals of the boom. I agree with your decision to go on OOB ... life is too short ... 😁 By the way, the tubes of the Revell one looks thinner. Cheers, Dan On 1/19/2022 at 5:02 PM, king derelict said: Great decision to correct the diagonals. I suspect paint and shading will obscure any flatness of the tubes Alan Thanks Dan, Alan... I tend to agonize over such things, My inner eye is always telling me that more is possible that physical reality will allow sometimes... I guess I'm a perfectionist.... Anyway here's the latest stopping point... the H-13H frame is basically assembled... Today I should be getting my paint... while I paint the H-13H frame... Getting closer to making them purty... The Revell Base Frame... First we mount the tail hoop, lower engine support and skids... Next comes the Battery Box, Avionics Box and Oil Tank.... Frame Assembly complete, next up paint, olive drab of course, sitting next to the complete and painted frame of the H-13D/E frame for comparison... the two kits definately have a different build sequence... You notice no tires, both birds in their environments had little need for wheels and tires so they were usually removed in service usage.. At Ft Wolters if they needed to move on around they had a dolly which they would slip under the skids so they could push them around, and in Korea they didn't go anywhere if it wasn't flying, beside where they operated these there was little to no paving all the time... Onwards.... mtaylor, Baker, ccoyle and 9 others 12 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share #108 Posted January 22, 2022 Well my paint didn't show up today, Post says it will be here tomorrow... went ahead and proceeded as far forward as I could on the H-13H frame, installed the engines on both and now I'm stuck til the paint gets here... So once the frames were completely dry, I figured I would mount the unfinished cockpits temporarily so I can get an overall look see at how they are turning out.. These are those shots... I think they are going to turn out ok..... Onward.... mtaylor, Baker, Landlubber Mike and 10 others 13 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardkenway Posted January 22, 2022 Share #109 Posted January 22, 2022 Looking good EG, and from here those tail frames have turned out great. Hope your paint turns up😉 Canute, king derelict, lmagna and 5 others 8 Quote Current builds; Henry Ramey Upcher 1:25 Providence whaleboat- 1:25 HMS Winchelsea 1764 1:48 Completed: HM Cutter Sherbourne- 1:64- finished Triton cross section scratch- 1:60 - finished Non ship: SBD-3 Dauntless 1:48 Hasegawa -FINISHED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share #110 Posted January 22, 2022 (edited) Thanks Ed, Yeah it was much ado about nothing me thinks, more rivet counter angst than anything about the actual appearance.... I received the pending delivery notice this morning so the paint will arrive today... But in prep for the final steps I went ahead and built the skids for the H-13D... and noticed something else.... there is an internal diagonal brace missing.... In the square frame below the engine end of the driveshaft there is a brace that runs from the upper left corner to the lower right corner, it's not in the kit and not even in the instructions... No problem I have plenty of .050 plastic rod to install it with... But then I noticed something else.... Another part that is missing from the italeri kit... Look at the Revell Kit at the top of the engine and the Italeri kit at the same location... What's missing? The upper engine mount/brace... Yep that triangular saddle brace that anchors the top of the Engine/Transmission... It's not in the kit, not the instructions, and there isn't even any mounting points for it on the frame... And as you can see, it is too prominent a detail to let go... You could get away with it on the Revell Kit cause the saddle tanks obscure it, (except the engine would flop around loose.... But not the Italieri, it's right there in the open... That's going to set me back a day or two, luckily I have the materials on hand and an example of the mount in scale as well... Now I just have to make one to fit the Italieri Bird... That's three blatant mistakes with the Italeri molding of this kit... Somebody out there dropped the ball badly... Oh well... Generally the Italieri Kit is rated better than the Revell kit is, but I'm finding the opposite here, for accuracy, the Revell kit tops the italeri by a long way.... Well, two steps forward one step back, the life of a modeler... Onwards... Edited January 22, 2022 by Egilman lmagna, king derelict, Landlubber Mike and 10 others 13 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 23, 2022 Author Share #111 Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) Building an Upper Engine Support for the Italeri H-13D... The mount... AS you can see it is required... It consists of two frames connected to the engines and the frame of the aircraft... The bottom frame is a diamond shape and forms the connection to the aircraft frame through rubber bushings... The upper frame brackets the Transmission and helps provide the lateral stability to keep the engine vertical side to side... They are connected to each other by diagonals at each corner of the upper frame, which descend to the diamond points of the lower frame connected to the aircraft frame... You can easily see where it passes underneath both the driveshaft housing and the fan pully housing... Unfortunately, I cannot make it pass under the fan pully housing on the model... So you see a gap where it approaches the fan pully housing, it will hardly be noticed when finally assembled and painted Olive drab as that is the color of the fan shroud it will have to glue to... Unfortunately this tells me that the engine is also a tad larger than scale as well... but there is nothing I can do about that... Right now, I'm planning on supergluing them in place and checking fit on the aircraft frame before I add the diagonals.... At least it will look the part.... Onwards... Edited January 23, 2022 by Egilman popeye the sailor, lmagna, ccoyle and 10 others 13 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landlubber Mike Posted January 23, 2022 Share #112 Posted January 23, 2022 Looking really great! These are going to be spectacular when done. Nice job! Canute, Egilman, FriedClams and 3 others 6 Quote Mike Current Wooden builds: Amati/Victory Pegasus MS Charles W. Morgan Euromodel La Renommèe Plastic builds: SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48 Five Star Yaeyama 1/700 Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32 Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72 IJN Notoro 1/700 Akitsu Maru 1/700 Completed builds : Caldercraft Brig Badger Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700 Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350 F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72 Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48 Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48 Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16 Terminated build: HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn) On the shelf: Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits Future potential scratch builds: HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 24, 2022 Author Share #113 Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Landlubber Mike said: Looking really great! These are going to be spectacular when done. Nice job! Thank's Mike, Movin in that direction, I hope they live up to expectations... Small update... Given the nature of this beast from Italeri I'm unable to do a complete upper engine frame, so I'm going to fake it... It looks like one is there but it's not actually doing anything.. it's there to make it look right only... Still a little wet paint but it should look the part when I reassemble it... OH and my Orange Red pain arrived from True North.... Look good and very close to the color I'm seeing in the pics.... FS 28913 TN# 1058 Now I can move farther down the path.... Onwards!!! Edited January 24, 2022 by Egilman lmagna, Captain Slog, Canute and 8 others 11 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 24, 2022 Author Share #114 Posted January 24, 2022 Ok, back to where I was two days ago.... Hopefully no more corrections needed.... Onwards... mtaylor, Captain Slog, lmagna and 9 others 12 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king derelict Posted January 25, 2022 Share #115 Posted January 25, 2022 The engine frame looks very effective. Very tidy too Alan popeye the sailor, Canute, Old Collingwood and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share #116 Posted January 26, 2022 Thanks Alan, It came out passable given the engine is oversized a tad bit... It does look the part.... Today I found another issue with the Italeri kit... The tail rotor is backwards.... The real deal.. Looking at the right side of the aircraft the tail rotor turns right handed, the blade going over the top is moving forward... The kit as built as a air-evac chopper... Looking at the left side of the model the blade is turning right handed the blade going over the top is headed aft... It's backwards.... Chuckle, it never seems to end, when they screw up one detail it seems there are always more... So I've corrected this and reversed the tail rotor blades so they turn in the appropriate direction. I did check the Revell Kit for this and no, it's fine, they got it right... I'm at the point where I need to diverge, the build sequence on the two kits makes it difficult to do a step by step on both at the same time from this point on... So I'm going to take the H-13D/E to the point of decals then go back to the H-13H... It's just easier to now separate the two.... Current assembly status... Getting closer.... Onwards... Edwardkenway, mtaylor, Captain Slog and 7 others 10 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landlubber Mike Posted January 26, 2022 Share #117 Posted January 26, 2022 Nice catch there Egilman. It is surprising how some of these kits missed what seem to be basic obvious details, got them backwards, etc. Maybe just working off a picture or two, and not as much research? On the other hand, I guess we are spoiled to have kit manufacturers like Wingnut Wings and Zoukei Mura that put in tons of research for accuracy. Egilman, FriedClams, mtaylor and 5 others 8 Quote Mike Current Wooden builds: Amati/Victory Pegasus MS Charles W. Morgan Euromodel La Renommèe Plastic builds: SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48 Five Star Yaeyama 1/700 Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32 Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72 IJN Notoro 1/700 Akitsu Maru 1/700 Completed builds : Caldercraft Brig Badger Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700 Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350 F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72 Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48 Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48 Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16 Terminated build: HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn) On the shelf: Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits Future potential scratch builds: HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmagna Posted January 26, 2022 Share #118 Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) In defense of the manufactures all it takes to get it wrong sometimes is one reversed negative. While they may do research at some point, it may be questionable how in depth that research may be. Doesn't seem to be the case this time but sometimes? Edited January 26, 2022 by lmagna Egilman, popeye the sailor, Old Collingwood and 5 others 8 Quote Lou Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence Currant builds: Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold) Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral) 1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin) Currant research/scratchbuild: Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes Non ship build log: 1/35th UH-1H Huey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canute Posted January 26, 2022 Share #119 Posted January 26, 2022 I'm with Lou here. These kits were developed how many years ago? Ask Denis (Popeye) about the fit of "box scale" kits. The oldies are quite primitive compared to the current goodies. I'm sure some of you remember the Hawk kits with the molded om markings? 🙄 It would be nice if a manufacturer decided on a different model, instead of being the 4th version of USS Arizona or KM Bismarck. Most research of models into the 80s was deciphering markings and paint colors. We live in a Golden Age of scale modeling. Edwardkenway, lmagna, Old Collingwood and 6 others 8 1 Quote Ken Started: MS Bounty Longboat, On Hold: Heinkel USS Choctaw paper Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1 Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section Member Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share #120 Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) On 1/26/2022 at 1:18 AM, Landlubber Mike said: Nice catch there Egilman. It is surprising how some of these kits missed what seem to be basic obvious details, got them backwards, etc. Maybe just working off a picture or two, and not as much research? On the other hand, I guess we are spoiled to have kit manufacturers like Wingnut Wings and Zoukei Mura that put in tons of research for accuracy. Thanks my friend, it was just something that stuck when I started thinking about painting it and figured I should check cause it didn't seem "right".... I think the MRC/Italieri ( BA109 1997 Float upgrade to MRC/Italieri BA102 1993) kit was just an updated response to the Revell (#4334 1994) Kit which caught the public imagining and was found wanting by so many.... BA102 didn't do too well in the marketplace before that.... And since the MRC/Academy/Fujimi H-13E series of kits are all the same Italeri designed kit just reboxed, it suffers from the issue of a low demand kit at the time of release so they didn't sink a lot of effort into research... Just enough to get something passable out there that had never been done before... Never expecting it to ever really amount to anything... And then the Mash nostalgia and Revell doing their thing and producing a very excellent effort in the research department but a less than stellar execution in the molding design department.... Modelers when building it quickly pointed out the deficiency in the molding and the response from modelers was to do their own research of available kits and hit on the MRC/Italieri kit as the alternative... and of course it didn't have what was felt as the glaring molding issue of the Revell kit so automatically became the standard of better where H-13's were concerned... And people just accepted that and ran with it... Now comes along someone like me, who likes accuracy, and does a pretty solid amount of work on research and finds both wanting... Although I've gone against the conventional wisdom that the Italieri designed kit is better... The Revell kit has two issues #1 it is a fictional aircraft from a TV show and it is the wrong model of aircraft depicted so it doesn't even represent the show well and, #2 the obvious molding issue... The Italeri designed kit has any number of issues... That are clearly plain to anyone who actually does the research, shortcuts were made is probably the best way to put it to keep costs down on a kit that really wasn't going to draw a lot of interest... (until the MASH mania hit the market) Neither one is a beginners kit, they do take some experience to build, they are simple kits though not difficult to understand.... But my conclusions are, the Revell can't be beat where it comes to details of an actual H-13H Although incorrect for a Air Ambulance version, will build pretty much most any early to mid 60's H-13 and do it very well... You can detail it to whatever level you want... The Italieri designed kit depicts nominally an H-13E and has provision to do any early variant including a "D" variant (and the even rarer "C" variant as well) but they surely didn't do complete research and to make an accurate model out of it is going to require some work and research for the modeler, it would probably pass out of the box if all you need is an H-13 on your shelf.... Not if you want an accurate one though, that will require some scratch building.... (as I've detailed here, and there are missing details I'm not going to add) Both kits suffer from the age they were designed, anyone designing one of these for production today with the advances in molding tech I'm sure would do a stellar release if they didn't ignore even basic accuracy... Neither one will ever be mistaken for something other than what they are... And, we will probably never see another release of this model cause the market just isn't there for it... But who knows, stranger things have happened.... Edited January 28, 2022 by Egilman Canute, Jack12477, popeye the sailor and 3 others 6 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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