3d printing process

[Jasseji]

1 minute ago, thibaultron said:

How do you refill the vat in the middle of a print, so as to not affect the print?

I was able to pause the print several times without any issues (the plate raises)

 

apart from that, just pour slowly

[Haze Gray]

Hi Ron, pretty easy actually, you can just pour some in by the corner.  

[Egilman]

11 hours ago, Haze Gray said:

Humm - it always worries me when I don't hear a mild to medium thump - but you're probably right - really loud thump = low resin,  pour in resin and you deaden the sound....  

I'll be the first one to say I don't know for sure, all I have to go on is the results and my observations....

 

Engineering wise less thump equals less stress on the part when being lifted... The issue is print separation from the build plate causing a failed print... The FEP is flexible and the reason for that is to cause it to separate from the part when the printer resets for the next layer... The harder the part sticks to the FEP, (which causes the thump when it releases) means the printer has a more difficult time resetting successfully for the next layer.... The louder the thump, the harder it's sticking.... It logically would also be putting more and more stress on the partially cured resin of the part each time it sticks requiring more force to lift for the next layer..... The stress eventually gets to the point where it overcomes the strength of the partially cured resin and you have a failed print by either the part breaking or detaching from the build plate....

 

The sound itself doesn't bother me all that much, but what it represents does.... 

 

Refilling the resin vat during the print adds weight on top of the FEP and not to the print, with added weight the FEP has a harder time sticking to and lifting with the print reducing the thump and reducing the chance of a failed print....

 

Now like I said I don't know this for definite sure, but it works for me sufficiently to say that no thump equals a more efficient print and hence a better success rate...

 

Just reporting on my experiences testing this printers capabilities, and what I've come up with to resolve issues as they come up..... I'm just figuring all this out for the first time myself.....

 

If I'm wrong on anything or what I report doesn't make any sense someone please clue me in so we all can have a good laugh together...

 

Print on...

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Egilman

[Egilman]

10 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Fascinating stuff on these printers.

Yes it is, a whole new world.... I do know this, if I can figure it out I'm sure you can....

[Egilman]

9 hours ago, Jasseji said:

Now i need to re-slice the Voyager and scale it back to original stl size but i need time over the weekend for the print - my problem is that the printer is in the attic, which is basically another apartment above ours (with separate door) so i cant just casually check up on it while doing other stuff.

 

It's not a problem to go up, but when i go back down i somehow cant focus on other tasks bc i'm nervous something will go wrong

One of those relatively cheap video baby monitors? That should be capable of allowing you to check it from time to time.... Another alternative is one of those cheap wireless security cameras should do the same thing.....

[Egilman]

3 hours ago, thibaultron said:

How do you refill the vat in the middle of a print, so as to not affect the print?

The same as the guys have already said... pour gently and slowly while it is curing a layer, me, I pour it on the back of the build plate while it is down to prevent spills and splashes....

 

Ron, make sure you go into the printer config and turn off the cover interlock so you can remove the cover while it is operating.....

Edited October 5, 2021 by Egilman

[Egilman]

Well, a 21 hour print, it wouldn't have finished if I hadn't refilled the vat during the print....

 

SUCCESS!

Now for cleaning and curing.....

 

Yea Team!!!

 

Next up, an Enterprise Refit or Enterprise A in the same scale, it will have to be multipart cause at 1/1000 scale it won't fit in the printer in one piece.....

 

 

[thibaultron]

I don't have a printer yet. It is on the list for next month, after I order a CNC router this week.

[Egilman]

I've thought about a CNC router, but my workshop is already full of equipment and I just don't know where I would put it... (along with the laser cutter and automatic paper cutter etc., etc)

 

Probably going to have to down size some of it...... {chuckle}

[thibaultron]

The CNC router I'm looking at takes up about 18" X 12" workbench area, with about a 6" X 10" cutting capacity. I'm going to put it on a shelf above my workbench. Obviously not for large parts, but I will be able to cut most of any bulkheads and small details on it, in the scales I would use. It should also cut things like nameplates, Chesapeake Bay type trailboard carvings, etc. It is even rated for small aluminum carvings. I'll also use it to create replacement keel and false keel pieces for the defective ones in my HMS Granado Crosection kit. I CADed plans for a Maryland Terrapin Smack that it can cut the bulkheads, and deck furniture for on it, as well as the keel and subdeck (in sub sections). I'm also CADing plans for a Santa Fe passenger car, that I may be able to use this to mill the truck frames for. Maybe I'm spending money on it, that doesn't competely justify, but I think I'll get my moneys worth out of it.

[Haze Gray]

4 hours ago, Egilman said:

 

 

Now like I said I don't know this for definite sure, but it works for me sufficiently to say that no thump equals a more efficient print and hence a better success rate...

 

 

 

No thump could also mean layers are not attaching to the part - which will become visible once the retraction lifts the part above the level of the resin 😃   From experience the lager the contact area of the part the more likely you will thump with a higher report.... 

[Egilman]

5 minutes ago, Haze Gray said:

 

No thump could also mean layers are not attaching to the part - which will become visible once the retraction lifts the part above the level of the resin 😃   From experience the lager the contact area of the part the more likely you will thump with a higher report.... 

That's very true, and there is no way of knowing until the part does clear the resin level in the vat.... What I do is lift the model off the build plate 10 mm and use a raft with an 8mm plate lift, this way I minimize the resin usage and know that it has separated before I get deeply into the model and use a lot of resin.... At that point it's easy cleanup and restart after adjusting the model....

 

Another thing I'm doing is to hollow the model to 1mm wall thickness, that's as small as Lychee will go, it's still pretty strong and use 20% infill structure for added interior support....

It also give you the absolute minimum FEP contact....

 

Still kinda working the parameters out myself....

[Egilman]

Ok out of the wash, not cured yet..... (shown next to the earlier print)

Still needs curing and cleaning, then finishing.. I've left the raft on the bottom to facilitate curing in the machine.....

 

 

[Haze Gray]

I received two things today - the replacement LCD for the Photon S (already installed now and working but it's not a fun proceedure).  Also received the new (replacement) build plate for the Mono X **finally came!** -  low and behold it's got the laser etching that's found on the upcoming Anycubic DLP printer.   It didn't come with  any mounting bracket or hardware (shoot) but I'm still pleased with it - 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Haze Gray

[Egilman]

14 hours ago, Haze Gray said:

low and behold it's got the laser etching that's found on the upcoming Anycubic DLP printer.

I wonder how long that is going to last until it gets all scraped up and you wind up having to sand it smooth again... Looks neat though and it's proof positive that they will be releasing the DLP sooner rather than later....

[Haze Gray]

51 minutes ago, Egilman said:

I wonder how long that is going to last until it gets all scraped up and you wind up having to sand it smooth again... Looks neat though and it's proof positive that they will be releasing the DLP sooner rather than later....

I doubt it will last long - most of the build surface looks sand/glass blasted - I expect the high level of aesthetics will be over after the first print gets scraped off 😃

[Haze Gray]

Okay so I'm back to printing on the Mono X using clear resin again with settings off that G-drive document - we'll see how it goes.   Throwing caution to the wind - I'm going to try printing out a 1/350th scale version of the French ram Cerbère from around 1870 (which I currently have a 1/72 scale hull of already printed).   fingers crossed.....

[mikegr]

On 10/5/2021 at 5:14 PM, Haze Gray said:

Hi Ron, pretty easy actually, you can just pour some in by the corner.  

I think slicing software does estimane the amount of resin needed. Is it reliable?

[Egilman]

Not something to rely on Mike... my experience is their estimate could be as much an an ounce off.....

[Haze Gray]

First time printing the Ram I had problems - the raft was truly fused to that laser etched build plate - worked way too good plus I hadn't really dialed down my exposure settings so it came out essentially fully cured- despite all the razor blades and other sharp metal tools I used that sent brittle pieces flying it took me 20 minutes to clean off that build plate essentially ***zero damage*** and I was not being careful at all. 

 

Adjusted my settings and used the original build pate I got with the printer and the ram print worked out just fine even if I had gone way overboard on the support.... so much easier to get off the build plate with just a razor blade and only just a few seconds.  does appear that the MonoX can print holes  that are under 0.5mm diameter where as the Photon S I had to use .8mm and up 

 

[PRS]

So I received my Mars 2 yesterday and been having fun learning and am amazed with the detail of the prints.

 

Couple questions:

1-Is it OK to leave resin in the vat when not printing for a few days?

2-If you are printing something and it finishes while you are away or asleep can you leave it and clean it later?

 

Also I tried to use chitu slicer and found it is not as user/newbie friendly as Lychee. Will stick to Lychee as it has nice presets for the different resins and has a better interface for slicing in my mind. 

 

I am using Elegoo water washable black resin and it works pretty good. Will post some pictures of some prints later. 

[Lieste]

Resin cures in light, so I'd keep it in the bottle when not actually printing. You don't want to find cured resin all over your vat and screen.

I'm only using an FDM printer right now, so I don't have experience for how quickly you can create problems for yourself, but I have run a film camera and darkroom and know that light sensitive materials can be ruined by careless handling ~ and here you have expensive and delicate components in close proximity to the resin... plus fumes from the resin are not good to have just lying about without ventilation... put it in the bottle, and save the potential trouble.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

This is a thread I've been in need of for the past 9 months! I now have three printers - a Creality Ender 3 FDM machine, an Elegoo Mars2 resin and and Elegoo Saturn resin. That's a story in itself but here's the short version. I started with the Ender about 18 months ago. A wonderful intro and adventure but I could never get the fine results or level of detail I was seeking. Patrick's observations persuaded me to buy the Mars2, in January this year I think. I was immediately blown away on two levels. Firstly, the incredible level of detail and quality of finish you get with resin. Secondly, how easy it is compared to filament printing. After a period of messing with the settings - of course I'd know better than the experts (not) - and some expensive mistakes, I did what the technicians at elegoo told me to do and now just use the factory/recommended settings and it all works just fine. However, I rapidly discovered that the build size on the Mars2 is just a bit too small and limiting, so I bought the Saturn a few months ago. The stated plan (to the Admiral) was that I'd sell the others to offset the cost, and one day I will.... maybe. It is quite handy having all three though! The Ender is useful for bigger, functional, usually non-modelling stuff; custom brackets for mounting my crazy man garden watering system timers, one of a kind finials for my greenhouse ridge, that kind of thing. Whereas keeping the Mars just mean I can run two prints simultaneously, I don't have all the time in the world you know, do I 🤪.

 

Lessons learned, observations;

1. Do buy a resin printer rather than filament, for modelling. Unless you're doing very large scale like Yves' corvette, filament will likely disappoint. My own experience was one of more frustration than satisfaction. Forever chasing a good setting, probably because from day one I was trying to work at the absolute limits of what's possible with FDM. Big parts that didn't need great detail, finish or accuracy, no problem, stock settings work fine. Small, finely detailed, blah. A glass bed helped, so did using hairspray on the bed, and changing the bowden tubing for a much better quality one (can't remember the make, but it's blue and all roads lead to it); likewise, mounting the spool off the printer and making some of the custom parts like a filament guide.

2. Buy a bigger resin printer like the Elegoo Saturn or Anycubic Mono from the outset. I have no first hand knowledge about how they compare side by side but there is basically only one moving part, the screens are probably all made by the same chinese factory and nothing I've read suggests there is the slightest difference in results. The Elegoo was way cheaper, hence my choice and the build quality is great. I gather there is an even bigger one on the way, the Jupiter, but I'd be careful there as the consumables - replacement screens, FEP - are likely to be expensive and availability of consumables can be an issue with elegoo, though I think they've got a handle on that now. I had a big leak on the Saturn and thought the screen was wrecked so bought a replacement, turns out it had a screen protector factory fitted, you just have to look very carefully for the edge. The elegoo techs suggested just using a FEP sheet as a replacement protector but I've read of people using kitchen film.

3. I now always spray the FEP with Silicone / PTFE oil before a print session. It seems to help, at least I stopped seeing failed prints.

4. I do use a magnetic build plate on the Saturn. Absolutely no negatives, sticks fine, prints are just the same, but equally, I'm not sure there are particular advantages. The prints seem to stick to it like the proverbial to a blanket and flexing the plate to release them, as often as not, results in the model snapping, so I still prise them free with a scraper. I've bought a second build plate for an upcoming session as it's easier scraping them off a rigid surface.

5. I've also bought a spare tank for the Saturn, just because it's a pain having to stop everything to replace the FEP, would rather do that at my leisure.

6. I've tried 3 different resin types, all Elegoo; standard, water-washable and ABS-like. Standard is much more brittle than ABS and the print quality is identical. Water washable, IIRC, gave a less good finish and was a lot more expensive. ABS-like is the bees knees for me, all I'll use from here on. Though I do plan to try some AnyCubic when I next see it on offer. Sirayatech blue, way, way, way too pricey at this stage. Maybe when my designs are 100% proven.

7. Between you, you've convinced me to now buy a wash'n'cure machine. I go through gallons of IPA, which is not at all cheap, but more importantly, even though I do a lot of cleaning up, my printer workbench becomes quite 'tacky' and has to be put out in the sun periodically to cure, and there's not a lot of that (sun) here in the UK right now! Plus I never really know how long to cure for and maybe the machine can educate me.

8. Ambient temperature. I think maybe this also connects to the 'popping' and 'thumping' issue. Logically, if the ambient temp' is on the low side then the resin won't flow so easily. Now that I know resin is not quite as hazardous as I thought, I'll move the printer out of the unheated garage (getting cold in the UK now) and into my heated office, and just ventilate a bit.

9. Slicers: I mostly use Chitubox as I know this is entirely local to my machine and it works fine for me - again, why would I know better than Elegoo, who ship Chitubox with the machine? I've also used Lychee when a print needs fixing but I don't like that it connects to the web... I don't like anything that tracks what I do for no good reason other than that they can, or want to sell me stuff I neither need nor want.

10. Supports: bigger is sometimes better. I think sometimes the print fails because the chosen supports aren't strong enough and break, so I increasingly use medium or large supports and have less trouble. Initially, especially with very small parts, I would try to get away with the very lightest and least number of supports. Now, I just accept that one face of the model will need sanding, filling etc if it'll be on show.

 

Apologies for such a long download, and I'm looking forward to learning from everyone else on here as we all come to grips with this amazing technology.

[Egilman]

On 10/10/2021 at 6:39 PM, PRS said:

Couple questions:

1-Is it OK to leave resin in the vat when not printing for a few days?

2-If you are printing something and it finishes while you are away or asleep can you leave it and clean it later?

#1, not recommended for longer than two days, (according to Anycubic and several other brands) what happens is the resin starts settling out in the vat leaving a residue on the FEP that is difficult to get clean... (like a ultra fine powder suspended in the resin) 

 

#2 I have, didn't seem to hurt anything... but refer to #1 above... if your going to gone longer than a day, don't start a print would be my thoughts......

[Egilman]

On 10/10/2021 at 6:55 PM, Lieste said:

Resin cures in light, so I'd keep it in the bottle when not actually printing. You don't want to find cured resin all over your vat and screen.

I'm only using an FDM printer right now, so I don't have experience for how quickly you can create problems for yourself, but I have run a film camera and darkroom and know that light sensitive materials can be ruined by careless handling ~ and here you have expensive and delicate components in close proximity to the resin... plus fumes from the resin are not good to have just lying about without ventilation... put it in the bottle, and save the potential trouble.

It's really not that bad, the resin under normal light cures very, very slowly... I left some sitting out in a cup for three days in normal room light, no curing evidence at all... (it actually starts getting gummy around five days, direct sunlight would probably cure it faster) The real issue is pigments settling out of the resin and spillage on anything making a mess... 

 

With careful handling resin is easy to work with....

Edited October 12, 2021 by Egilman

[Egilman]

48 minutes ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

Lessons learned, observations;

That's pretty much been my experience traveling this road as well.... I think the PFTE lube helps and I'm going to go back to Anycubic's  setting for the resin.... A little thump is ok a lot of thump is not.... I haven't tried any washable resin yet, but I think, in the long run, a little more cost for the resin will outpace a lot more cost for the IPA on the savings side.... And the Wash & Cure will work with water as well as IPA...

 

Anycubic recently reduced their prices on the Mono X making it comparable to the Elegoo Saturn pricewise... Physically and mechanically there is no difference I can find between the two.... They both do the same thing to the same standards... Still need to get the extra vat and the steel handled screw clamps for mine, but I've decided to pass on the mag plate

 

Currently I'm doing a bit of training in 3D software, cause my experience downloading models and attempting to print them has been less that optimal, besides I intend to go my own way and print what I want, so needing to learn how to create the objects to print becomes a necessity.... I haven't decided yet which software I'm going to settle on, Solidworks, Inventor or Fusion 360....

They all have their advantages and a few disadvantages....

 

I've found a few outstanding models I'm going to take a shot at printing in the near future, one with over 500 parts! there is some wonderful stuff out there you will never see from a model company....

 

Keep posting brother... it's the way we learn....

[Kevin-the-lubber]

3 hours ago, Egilman said:

Keep posting brother... it's the way we learn....

Indeed it is, and it will probably be good that most of us are at more or less the same stage (the blind leading the blind!), as newbie questions can be baffling for seasoned hands but often make perfect sense to a peer.

 

I went down the Fusion 360 route, purely because it looked good, has a great support forum and, most importantly, is free. It’s immensely powerful, is easy to learn to do simple stuff, and not even that hard, in retrospect, for more complex stuff. It’s probably all a lot easier if you can get some interactive tuition rather than rely on the plethora of online content, in part because no-one ever seems to have quite the same problem as you. I suspect that even after 8 or 9 months of constant learning I still only know how to use about 30% or 40% of it’s capability. But there are some very valuable ‘tricks of the trade’ that are worth learning early on. At some point I’ll put my head above the parapet and start a topic here along the lines of ‘The beginners guide to F360 according to Kevin’, to share my own experience and then learn how I could have done it all so much more easily…

 

I’ve looked at Freecad… insufficiently shiny for a visual person like me… and SolidEdge, also free, potentially as good as F360 and, while I have periodically become sufficiently exasperated by F360 to just explore SolidEdge a little, it feels like I would have to learn everything all over again so I haven’t pursued it. Completely different menus, options etc. As it was, I felt utterly embarrassed at having to ask, on an F360 forum, how to draw a box. Those first few steps are by far the hardest. The downside of getting into the CAD side is that everything’s possible but it can suck up all those hours, and more, that you thought you were going to spend actually making stuff. In my mind, now, the actual printing is just a small end process. Plonk the stl into the slicer, add supports, pour in some resin and come back an hour later. 

 

I should also mention Tinkercad for anyone just about to start. It’s free and a wonderful, easy intro to the design side. Also a lot more capable than you might think. And, once you start finding it’s limitations, then look at proper CAD software.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Ps. I can be a lazy so-and-so and have left resin in the vat for a week or two without any probs, rather than have the hassle of cleaning the vat. I just carefully stir it before I next print.

 

I’ve also left prints sat on the plate for many hours before removing them, if I go out for instance, also without any issue. In fact I try to be patient and let them sit for a good couple of hours anyway, so all the unused liquid drains back into the vat, otherwise you’re just rinsing away perfectly good, expensive, resin. While I wouldn’t leave a print while I went on a two week holiday, I’d certainly leave it for a couple of days.

[Egilman]

As far as 3D design software goes I've learned that they are all the same, they all do the same thing, they just do it "differently".... Sufficiently different to make one totally feel and operate like it was from the other side of the planet compared to the next one.... I started with Maya from back when it wasn't owned by Autodesk, found that I couldn't afford it and eventually switched to Blender 1.9... It was a real issue trying to find anything out there for learning it though, everything was run through user groups and forums.... It's much better now along those lines but the learning curve is still like trying to climb an overhanging cliff with out a rope.. {chuckle}

 

Me I'm an drafting dude, engineering type, the artist organic thing just doesn't work for me... So realizing what side of the design spectrum you fall on is the first step.... The software's for 3D also fall into the same spectrum, they are designed to make you inner engineer or inner artist come to the surface.... 

 

The one thing I have learned is 3D printing, (software model to print) works best using solid modeling software... The end result from your software has to be a solid object if there is any holes or detached edges or overlapping surfaces it may print but your chance of a print failure rises geometrically the more errors there are in the model.... Currently there is NO software out there specifically designed for 3D printing.... (although they all tout their abilities towards it)

 

The second thing you learn is general 3D modeling and modeling for 3D printing are not the same.... There are necessary mechanics involved in 3D printing that just plain don't matter in general 3D like Animation, Gaming, CGI, Photogrammetry and Photorealistic Rendering... You are creating something that has physical properties like size, mass, volume, weight and other real world issues that the rest of the 3D applications don't need to deal with.... Call it the difference between what a draughtsman and artist does, An artist only needs his minds eye vision and a knowledge of the tools and practiced experience... A draughtsman needs all that plus an understanding of real world items, the materials they are made of and the properties of them in the environment they are going to live for the job they are going to do.... The tools are different to effect the end....

 

On one side is the artsy world of 3D and on the other is the hard, real world side of 3D....

 

3D is mature enough to start showing this issue...

 

But it's not so well developed that there is one go too tool for accomplishing this.... So be prepared to take a second trip down the rabbit hole when you consider software to design 3D objects... 3D printing is a process, one that is in it's infancy still... It is plain that FDM is a tool for actual engineering purposes, Resin printing for the arts and crafts type.. (modelers fall into the arts and crafts genre) In the CGI world, it doesn't matter to the employers what software you know, it's do you understand the process, if you do, you can learn the software the company uses...

 

We are not at this point in 3D printing yet... Especially with resin printing.... Understanding the process is what we are exploring here...

 

When the software thread is posted, I'll be there....

 

Please pardon this long excursion into the philosophy cum history of 3D...

 

But it is the world we are delving into...

 

EG

Edited October 12, 2021 by Egilman

[CDW]

22 minutes ago, Egilman said:

As far as 3D design software goes I've learned that they are all the same, they all do the same thing, they just do it "differently".... Sufficiently different to make one totally feel and operate like it was from the other side of the planet compared to the next one.... I started with Maya from back when it wasn't owned by Autodesk, found that I couldn't afford it and eventually switched to Blender 1.9... It was a real issue trying to find anything out there for learning it though, everything was run through user groups and forums.... It's much better now along those lines but the learning curve is still like trying to climb an overhanging cliff with out a rope.. {chuckle}

 

Me I'm an drafting dude, engineering type, the artist organic thing just doesn't work for me... So realizing what side of the design spectrum you fall on is the first step.... The software's for 3D also fall into the same spectrum, they are designed to make you inner engineer or inner artist come to the surface.... 

 

The one thing I have learned is 3D printing, (software model to print) works best using solid modeling software... The end result from your software has to be a solid object if there is any holes or detached edges or overlapping surfaces it may print but your chance of a print failure rises geometrically the more errors there are in the model.... Currently there is NO software out there specifically designed for 3D printing.... (although they all tout their abilities towards it)

 

The second thing you learn is general 3D modeling and modeling for 3D printing are not the same.... There are necessary mechanics involved in 3D printing that just plain don't matter in general 3D like Animation, Gaming, CGI, Photogrammetry and Photorealistic Rendering... You are creating something that has physical properties like size, mass, volume, weight and other real world issues that the rest of the 3D applications don't need to deal with.... Call it the difference between what a draughtsman and artist does, An artist only needs his minds eye vision and a knowledge of the tools and practiced experience... A draughtsman needs all that plus an understanding of real world items, the materials they are made of and the properties of them in the environment they are going to live for the job they are going to do.... The tools are different to effect the end....

 

On one side is the artsy world of 3D and on the other is the hard, real world side of 3D....

 

3D is mature enough to start showing this issue...

 

But it's not so well developed that there is one go too tool for accomplishing this.... So be prepared to take a second trip down the rabbit hole when you consider software to design 3D objects... 3D printing is a process, one that is in it's infancy still... It is plain that FDM is a tool for actual engineering purposes, Resin printing for the arts and crafts type.. (modelers fall into the arts and crafts genre) In the CGI world, it doesn't matter to the employers what software you know, it's do you understand the process, if you do, you can learn the software the company uses...

 

We are not at this point in 3D printing yet... Especially with resin printing.... Understanding the process is what we are exploring here...

 

When the software thread is posted, I'll be there....

 

Please pardon this long excursion into the philosophy cum history of 3D...

 

But it is the world we are delving into...

 

EG

Most of what you're describing has a vague similarity to the differences in CAD drawings and mapping software. What works just fine in CAD won't cut it in mapping software, even though they are similar in many ways.