Magenta 1861 by GrandpaPhil - 1/72 - CARD - French Ironclad Broadside Battleship - built as designed

[GrandpaPhil]

A few days ago, while surfing the forum, I came across a very neat build of the Waratah, an HMV card kit.

 

I pay a lot of attention to card models because I have found that I enjoy building them quite a lot.

 

This set me to looking for HMV kits, and @ccoyle showed me where you could get them on Amazon.  While looking at those, I discovered the Orel card kit of the Solferino (Magenta’s sister ship) which I had to have.

 

It is in 1/200 scale, which is very small.  I like larger scale models, and 1/72 is very convenient.  At first, I wanted to just triple the size of the kit.  
 

Then I started doing research.

 

Solferino is one of two Magenta-Class Ironclads.  They were broadside battleships. Essentially they were armored versions of conventional 2-decked ships of the line.

 

They struck a chord in me and I decided I needed one, or as it turns out, both of them, lol.

They are very neat looking vessels.

 

I started my research by going to Wikipedia, which led me to the original builders plans, hosted by the French Navy’s Historical Office in .tif format, which regrettably won’t display on the forum.

I like builders plans, they are fun to develop models from.  
 

I will be building Magenta from the builders plans, difficult, but fun for me.

 

The French Musee De La Marine has a model of Solferino which I will also be using for reference (these are from wikimedia commons).

 

 

 

I am specifically building Magenta because I will also be building the kit of the Solferino whenever I get it and I do not like building the same ship twice.
 

I have not yet decided on the building material yet.  I may build in card or cardboard, or I may build in wood.  
 

I will most likely make the final decision on the day I cut the first piece, which will be shortly after I finish the Victory.

 

Actual construction will likely be starting in a few months because I need to finish Victory, do thorough research and print the plans/update them with the findings of my research.
 

Thanks for visiting!

[mtaylor]

That looks to be an interesting and unique model (both of them actually).  As for .tif format, open it in Paint or any other graphics program and you can convert it to JPG.    Don't delete the .tif as a JPG is considered a "losey" format due to the compression it uses.  Keep the .tif for your plans.

[GrandpaPhil]

The plans that I am basing my build off of are from the French Ministry of Defense, and their equivalent of the Navy's Historical Office. 

 

They can be found from links from Wikipedia's Solferino page at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ironclad_Solférino

 

They are builder's plans of the Solferino, which is nearly identical to the Magenta.  The only difference I can find from looking at old photographs is the lack of the eagle on the bow of the Magenta.

 

Firstly, we have the lines and the outboard profile:

 

Please take note that the top body plan only goes to the outside of the frames.  In order to draw out my bulkheads, I will need to make allowances for the thickness of the armor and the planking.  When I calculated out the required thickness, the planking and armor came out to about 1/8" thick at 1/72 scale, so I'll have to make adjustments accordingly.  This will be very dependent on what I finally decide to make the model out of.

 

Next, we have the cross section, including armor thickness and the inboard profile:

 

Next, we have the main deck, including platforms, and the upper gundeck:

 

Please take note of the stern gallery walkway.

 

Next up, we have the lower gundeck and the rest of the lower decks:

 

Next up, we have the rigging and sail plan:

 

This is a very basic drawing of a barque rig.  Originally the Magenta-Classes had a barquentine rig.  I still have not decided which rig I am going to use.

 

Lastly, we have a detail of the armor plating:

 

The armor band only covered the waterline and the gun decks around the gunports.  According to the model in the Musee de la Marine, the bottom was coppered.

 

According to the Wikipedia article (I know Wikipedia is not the most reliable reference, but it will work for this), the Magenta's carried 50 guns of various calibers initially.  I would like to build the initial version of the ship for this model.

 

I am looking forward to making the armaments for this model.  The most I have made are 18 cannon at one time. 

 

I will carve the barrels from dowel rods like I have done in the past for my other models.  But these are much newer guns than the last ones that I made, so I will figure out the detailing when I get there.

 

I have the Osprey European Ironclads book coming (should be delivered next week) and I have Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships, 1860-1905 saved.

 

My end goal is to get a model that looks approximately like the one of the Solferino in the Musee de la Marine. 

 

This will be a more ambitious undertaking than the Prince de Neufchatel and the Hannah, but I believe it to be well within my abilities. 

 

These are actually better plans than I built the Prince de Neufchatel from, and I am very pleased with how that turned out.

 

We will see how this turns out.

[Free]

A very nice model, good luck with the construction.  😃

[Old Collingwood]

This will be a unique build  (correct me if I am wrong  - but first build of its type in our forum)

 

OC.

[GrandpaPhil]

I have learned a lot and get a lot of inspiration from this forum.  

My last two builds came from here.

Neither would have happened if I hadn’t been here.

However this build turns out, it will be a lot of fun!

[wefalck]

Good choice. I have weak spot for those iron-clads at the transition from sail to steam ...

 

Here is my collection of images from the Musée de la Marine in Paris in its old set-up, plus a few from the models in their Toulon and Rochefort dependances: https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/maritime/paris/frenchironclads.html. If you want copies of the original resolution images of SOLFÉRINO, let me know your email-address by PM and I can send them to you via WeTransfer. They will be unprocessed (for the lighting the poor lighting conditions) and you will need to brighten them up etc. They are also rather pixelated for that reason.

 

I also have 'official' drawings of the armament she would have carried. If I know the type of gun, I can look up the drawings for the barrels and the carriages and make scan available to you. However, I have the feeling that not much of the guns will be visible and she carried little on her upper deck, I think.

 

Of course, other navies of that time had also iron-clads and some of them are quite well documented, say the Spanish NUMANTIA, on which there are various books and kits also I believe: https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/maritime/madrid/madrid.html

 

I will keep a tap on this project 👍

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by wefalck

[GrandpaPhil]

Please and thank you very much!

 

I am going to arm her as built.  
 

Which,  I think also means I’m going to rig her as a barquentine.

 

When built, she packed 16 x single 194mm (7.6 In.) smoothbore muzzle loading guns, 34 x single 164.7mm (6.5 In.) rifled muzzle loading (RML) guns and 2 x 225mm (8.9 In.) RML howitzers.

 

[GrandpaPhil]

I priced out the costs of getting the plans printed out, today.

 

I am looking at getting them printed in 1/72 scale next weekend so I can start filling them in and plan out how I am going to build this.

[lmagna]

This is going to be a very interesting and unique ship build. Now we know where at least one inspiration for the "Steampunk" ships may have come from

[GrandpaPhil]

26 minutes ago, lmagna said:

This is going to be a very interesting and unique ship build. Now we know where at least one inspiration for the "Steampunk" ships may have come from

Indeed!  I couldn’t pass this one up once I had seen it!

 

I am a great fan of classic steampunk and that definitely played a major role in deciding to build Magenta.

Edited September 27, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[Haze Gray]

I'll definitely be following this build - the French incremental design advances starting with Gloire up through the Amiral Baudin class class are fascinating to me.  At 1/72 scale the Magenta will be almost a yard long and should be quite a striking (and rare?) model! 

 

[wefalck]

There is a German colleague, a retired engineer in Bavaria, who currently builds the BRETAGNE (1855) in 1:75, a massive model nearly 6 feet long. You can see his building log on our German forum (but you may have to register as guest): https://forum.arbeitskreis-historischer-schiffbau.de/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1548.

 

As an engineer, he uses all sorts of advanced techniques, outsources some parts, and recently mastered 3D-printing with UV-curing resin himself. The latter he uses to make masters for various hardware items that then are professionally cast and sold to others by these guys: https://elde-modellbau.com/epages/bd40fd5d-0ba8-443f-857a-537621b491ae.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectPath=%2FShops%2Fbd40fd5d-0ba8-443f-857a-537621b491ae. The parts are in 1:75, but some of them you might find useful anyway. Don't know about having them sent to the USA.

 

Before that, he built the NAPOLEON, another massive model at nearly 5 feet overall: https://forum.arbeitskreis-historischer-schiffbau.de/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1523&p=15013&hilit=NAPOLEON#p15013.

 

How are you planning to present the model, as 'builder's model' or realistic ? I always liked the way how these large models in the Musée de la Marine are done, with the armour in bright steel, the coppered underwater body, while the stern-post etc. is cast in bronze to avoid electrolytic corrosion of the copper-cladding.

Edited September 28, 2021 by wefalck

[wefalck]

P.S. the decades between 1850 and 1880 have been experimental years, during which the naval ship gradually evolved from sail-carrying wooden walls to something close to the modern steel battle-ships. Nations experimented with hull designs and gun arrangements. The French have been particularly inclined to come up with some rather 'steam-punky' designs looking back. Have you noticed also this interesting building log here: 

They have been particularly fond of excessive ram-bow designs, as here on the ill-fated aviso LE RENARD (1865):

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Renard_(aviso)

 

Perhaps no accident that Jules Verne was a French, born in Nantes into a family with shipping background and that his main works were written during those decades.

[GrandpaPhil]

Thank you very much for the information and the photos!

I’m planning on going for a well-used, realistic look.

 

Yes, Haze Gray’s Charles Martel is incredible.     One of these days I want to learn how to use a 3D printer.  Truth be told, my weakness is my lack of knowledge of 3D sculpting on a computer.

I definitely agree about Jules Verne.

 

I have learned a lot in the past couple weeks about the transition era warships.  They are very neat.  
 

I’ll see how this one goes, but I’ll probably build at least one more model from this time period.  
 

The French Navy’s Historical Office has the plans for a bunch of different ships posted.

[GrandpaPhil]

Thank you all very much for the comments, the likes and just for stopping by!

 

I got my copy of European Ironclads today!

[Haze Gray]

The Bow of the Magenta seems quite unique (even among French ships).  It has kind of a symmetrical break above and below the the waterline.... it's captivating for sure. I don't think I've seen ships with a similar bow like that but maybe there are others?    

[Roger Pellett]

By contrast for the US Navy the period from 1865 to the 1880’s was known as the Doldrums as the nation’s attentions turned inward and Naval construction all but halted. Incredibly ships that had fought in the Civil War were pulled out of the reserve fleet during International Crises well into the 1890’s.  While historians generally consider this to be shameful, it seems to me that not trying to keep up with European developments, saved the US a lot of wasted money.  When they finally decided that they needed a modern fleet, they had no trouble building one.

 

Roger

[Louie da fly]

Beautiful ships. I'll be following this one.

 

Steven

[KeithAug]

This looks very interesting Phil, should be fun.

[GrandpaPhil]

Thank you all very much for the comments and the likes!

 

On 9/28/2021 at 8:08 PM, Haze Gray said:

The Bow of the Magenta seems quite unique (even among French ships).  It has kind of a symmetrical break above and below the the waterline.... it's captivating for sure. I don't think I've seen ships with a similar bow like that but maybe there are others?    

It is very interesting.  It definitely started a lot of trends.

A lot of the major powers in Europe seemed to duplicate what the others had.  If you look at the Italian ironclads from Lissa, the bows were remarkably similar to the Magenta.

 

On 9/28/2021 at 8:37 PM, Roger Pellett said:

By contrast for the US Navy the period from 1865 to the 1880’s was known as the Doldrums as the nation’s attentions turned inward and Naval construction all but halted. Incredibly ships that had fought in the Civil War were pulled out of the reserve fleet during International Crises well into the 1890’s.  While historians generally consider this to be shameful, it seems to me that not trying to keep up with European developments, saved the US a lot of wasted money.  When they finally decided that they needed a modern fleet, they had no trouble building one.

 

Roger

Yes, I agree about the US not having to spend the money on the transition ironclads.  The US did save a lot of money that way.

 

They missed losing several entire fleets the way the European powers did.

 

[GrandpaPhil]

It’s been a busy day for Magenta.

 

I got my Solferino kit.  I need to put the hull together to use as a reference for the deck furniture and fittings.

I learned how to use The Gimp today.  I imported my plans into it and resized them to 1/72 scale and exported them as pdf’s in the size I need.

 

I printed my plans at Staples for a very reasonable price and they came out perfectly!

 

I now realize how big of a model this is going to be.  This will be AWESOME!

 

The next step is to reconcile the builders plans with the pictures @wefalck sent me of the model in Paris, and turn them into model plans.

 

I learned drafting in college a long time ago. It is time to put that to use.

 

During this time I also need to decide what I’m making Magenta out of, card or wood.  I still haven’t decided.

Edited October 2, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[mtaylor]

On 9/28/2021 at 5:08 PM, Haze Gray said:

The Bow of the Magenta seems quite unique (even among French ships).  It has kind of a symmetrical break above and below the the waterline.... it's captivating for sure. I don't think I've seen ships with a similar bow like that but maybe there are others?    

I think the part in the water doubled as a ram.  The French and others did several like that before they realized that the "new" ships would never close and board.

 

[GrandpaPhil]

Yes, the Magentas had a dedicated ram in the bow.  That actually created one of the challenges with building this particular model, deciding where to start the ram piece since it is integrated with the hull.

My intent is to end the center keel plate at the front bulkhead and carve the bow, integrating the ram into that piece, after planking.

 

This also brings me to my other decision regarding this model, it will be mostly wood, in plank on bulkhead.

 

I have never scratch built a wood ship model before and the Magenta would be a good one to try with, because there is nothing overly difficult about the galleries or structure of the ship.

 

Also, the keel is almost exactly 1/4” thick, which begs for the use of 1/4” plywood, which only costs $44 for a 4’ by 8’ sheet of the high grade birch at Lowes.
 

I accidentally printed a second copy of the plan with the lines, in tile format (the above picture was taken from that), so that will be used as a cut apart plan for the keel plate.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[Roger Pellett]

Phil,

 

I suggest that you build the model as two half hulls to be joined later.

 

See:

 Ros Ambrisio’s  Ampa Brazilian Custom Cruiser Model

My Benjamin Noble Freighter Model

Valeriy’s Varyag Cruiser model

 

There are advantages to this approach:

First, the flat joint between the two hulls gives you a flat datum to work from.

Many model building operations benefit from the half hull segments laying flat on the table. These include squaring bulkheads.  Using body plan templates to check hull contours, locating cutting out and affixing features to the hull- particularly adding the armor plating.

 

Actually, I would add a centerline assembly incorporating the ram and propeller aperture. Since these are distinctive features that can be easily distorted by sanding, I would make them from brass.

 

Roger

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Roger Pellett

[wefalck]

The stems / ram-bows of iron ships are quite pointed actually. I would guess that the outer edge was not more than perhaps 4 inches wide, which means that it would be only 1/16" in 1/72 scale. Not sure that this will be stable enough in plywood. I would cut the profile of the stem from aluminium and glue it into a slot cut into the plywood. As matter of fact, it may be worthwhile to make also the stern-post in that way.

 

With such a big model, you have to think about the stability of the 'backbone'.

 

These ram-bows became very fashionable after their use was partially successful in the Battle of Lissa between Austria and Italy and the Italian Re d'Italia was sunk in this way. Until the end of the century virtually every naval ship was given such bow, even small units such as torpedo-boats.

[Ras Ambrioso]

Very interesting build. I will be following it.

[GrandpaPhil]

It’s time to start Magenta.  

I am now ready to build my Solferino kit (as an accessory to this build) for reference regarding deck furniture and visible weaponry.

 

I will combine that with the photos of the model in Paris to fill in the gaps in the builders plans.

The first part of this process (after building the hull of Solferino) is going to involve relocating my shop to have a work space with a table big enough to lay out the plans.

 

I promised my Admiral that she could have my old work space for a reading room that I would set up for her.

Out of curiosity, does anyone else take vacation (read holiday for the British) time to work on their models?

[wefalck]

BTW, I started looking into the naval guns, but found conflicting information on the armament of the SOLFERINO. Do you have more precise information, what she was supposed to carry at the beinning ? The data you posted earlier don't seem to be right, as far as the bores are concerned.

[Keith Black]

Phil, fortunately I'm retired but still can't seem to find the time to work on the Tennessee like I need to. I have no clue how I ever found the time to hold down a full time job?