HMS Victory by gil middleton - FINISHED - Caldercraft - 1:72

[Klaas]

I think i got the answer Gil;

The metal they used must have been a mix of copper and bronze.

I tried looking on "cuprous alloy" on Google and then you get all kind of metalurgical explanations.

I don't understand a thing about it because you need a universety degree and that's what i don't have 

 

Regards Klaas

[gil middleton]

Hi Klaas,  Perhaps not the definitive answer.  Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin or other elements such as today's silicone bronze used in boat building for fasteners with wood such as teak decks.  Bronze was certainly available since bronze cannons were in use before giving way to steel. In any event your observations are undoubtedly correct since iron based pintles and gudgeons would be degraded by electrolysis.   It's fun to share the ideas.   Gil

Edited December 13, 2013 by gil middleton

[gil middleton]

More on Klaas and Jerry's comments.  I had to change to Firefox in order to post photos.

From the point of view of presentation of the model, it seems a shame to paint over the black bands, pintles and gudgeons with copper since the black shows off the detail of the bands, bolts, etc.much better than a uniform color.  The answer may be to paint the rudder fittings with copper paint darkened with umber to simulate the darker color of bronze when compared with copper.  In fact I'd over darken the fittings to increase the contrast and highlight the detail. 

The photos show the present rudder fittings and a photo of the restoration of the USS Constitution showing the somewhat darker color of bronze compared to the copper plating (National Geographic photo). When I have finally come up with an appropriate color, I'll add a photo.  Cheers, Gil

 

 

[Klaas]

It was only a suggestion Gil.

Your details are great as always.

And ofcourse as i always say: The builder of the model is the captain

[Jerry]

Hello Gil,

 

I painted my rudder hardware black as you did for the same reason you mentioned above.  Zinc was available at that time but I suppose they didn't know the technology we use today.  It would have been very simple to attach slabs to the rudder hinges which would deteriorate first and slowly to eventually be replaced.  I wouldn't doubt that your big boat has a few zinc modules attached to the hull; my 60 footer did.  The metal rudder  hardware then, I think,  could have been other than copper, brass, etc.  Just a thought.

Jerry

Edited December 16, 2013 by Jerry

[popeye the sailor]

I have a rule of thumb with cases like this.......if it can be done without damage,  then I 'd change it.  but,  if there is a chance,  I wouldn't.

     sounds to me like you had a good reason to do it this way........I wouldn't change it. 

[gil middleton]

Many thanks Popeye. You may have bailed me out.

And Klaas and Jerry, I sincerely appreciate your comments.

 

A REFLECTION........Why do we spend so many hours building model ships that were in their prime over 200 years ago or more?  We each have different priorities, however many are common to the majority of us.  For me, the satisfaction of working with my hands to produce a replica of a ship with beautiful lines tops the list.  We learn a great deal about ships of the day, and how they worked, sailed and crossed oceans, and perhaps more than we need to know about the source of our immediate project.  I'll never anchor our boat again without thinking of Daniel's dissertation on anchoring the "Victory." (I'd need ten men to raise our anchor without a power windlass.)  We strive for authenticity in our models, which of course can lead to obsession over details, while sharing with great joy the interchange with our friends on MSW.  They praise us when we get it right and keep us humble when we miss the mark. But most of all it's dialog with friends from around the world.

 

We build model ships for the love of the sea, and dreams of crossing the horizon to who knows where.  "If I were a lad in 1805 going to sea........................."

 

We build the models for presentation, but since larger models don't travel well, our audience is limited to close friends and family, unfortunate neighbors whose eyes glaze over when told of over three thousand copper plates or serving the shrouds and grand and great grand children who call it a "Pirate Ship."  Few of us will ever crack the door of a major museum, so the venue will likely be the front hall, back room or where ever space allows.  Judy says, "The house is a museum."

 

Net result?  It's a passion and it's fun.

 

One other observation.  Vindicari noted that my Yellow Ochre seemed brighter and more Yellow than the real ship.  I responded with a "learned reply" about mixing paints, effects of lighting, etc............and then I had cataract surgery three days ago.  You guessed it.  With the unoperated eye, the "Yellow Ochre" looks pretty good, while through the operated eye, it's brighter and more yellow . So from now on, one has to consider the age of the old geezer and whether he has cataracts.  Nuff said.

 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.  Gil

Edited December 16, 2013 by gil middleton

[dafi]

Do not bother for the color ...

 

... people adored the mellow colors of the dutch master painters ...

 

 

... until ...

 

... the restaurateurs cleaned the pictures of the old and darkened varnish and bright colors came back to life :-)

 

Nobody ever will know how she looked like and good luck with your new sight!

 

Cheers, Daniel

 

PS: Thank you for the honorable mention :-) :-) :-)

Means it was well worth the work!

[Jerry]

One of the happuest days of my life was when I completed cataract surgery on my second eye.  I couldn't believe how bright the colors were and how lovely flowers were.  i forgot as I got older without realizing my sight was growing duller.

And the best part of all...........NO MORE GLASSES.  I had this surgery about 5 or 6 years ago and my sight is now 20/15 with no glasses.  Have a great evening.

Jerry

Edited December 16, 2013 by Jerry

[popeye the sailor]

with what you've done on your Victory Gil........I am so jealous.........I could never do one,  as you have here.   chalk it up to water temp,  or something,  but I see no reason for concern.   did you happen to find a copy of my  'modeler's creedo'......I might have had one lying about.   perhaps,  one of these days,  I'll put them on paper and post them.   I believe that everyone who comes through these doors,  has an artistic touch about them........and it's a joy to see them develop and expand their knowledge of this wonderful hobby,  that we enjoy.

[Sailor1234567890]

I think you forgot one reason, or maybe you just alluded to it rather than mentioned it outright. I build them to help me dream of something I could never have. I (sometimes unfortunatly I think) have very refined tastes. I like the best of things. I (like anyone else) feel I KNOW what was the most beautiful, fastest etc ship, sexiest most manly awesome sports car, the most incredible flying machine in history. And I want one of each. I'll never own Cutty Sark, I'll likely never own a million dollar Shelby Cobra and as for flying a Spitfire.... not very likely either. But I know for a fact that Cutty Sark is the greatest sailing machine ever built, a Shelby Cobra exhudes testosterone and is the greatest sports car ever and there is nothing that has ever brought man into the sky that could even come close to comparing with a Spitfire (Ask any pilot who's ever flown one.) but by building a model of them, I can "own" one.

Yes, I think a big reason for building models is to allow us to dream.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Sailor1234567890

[pompey2]

Gil

 

I applaud your views on presentation.

 

I am also making the JoTika Victory.

 

I painted the rudder hinges and pins etc. black because it looks so much better.

 

I saw the manual instructions to use copper but that hides the detail away, so black was a conscious decision.

 

I also pondered on the 'perfect' yellow ochre, eventually decided that a mix would require constant accuracy when making a batch.

 

I didn't want to risk subtle changes so chose a colour as supplied from a maker and stuck with it.

 

Might not be perfect but I'm sure my local audience will never know.

 

Great work by the way, THAT is the thing that blows people’s minds.

 

 

 

Nick

 

[gil middleton]

Daniel, I couldn't match your beautiful work on the Victory's anchor cable, but did rebuild the windlass on our boat to raise 500 - 700 lb. of anchor and chain. A bit small for the Victory.

 

Jerry, I'm still at the amazed stage of the white whites and bright colors.

 

Popeye, Where can I find a copy of your "Modelers Creedo?"  Sounds interesting.

 

Daniel (Sailor),  I looked at your bio and was astounded.  I was also a lieutenant in the Canadian Navy (Reserve) and as a midshipman, spent time on HMCS Sioux (tribal class destroyer) and HMCS Antigonish (Frigate), 1951 - 1954. AND built models of the Cutty Sark, USS Constitution and of course the present Victory.  Dream on!  Our dream came in 1999 - 2002 when we took our boat offshore  for three years and 30,000 miles. I couldn't find a build log, but hope you'll start one before getting too far along.

 

Nick, (Pompey2), Your Victory is a delight to behold. I'm looking forward to seeing the rigging come to life.

 

And finally, finishing up the Main mast topgallant yard.  Adjusting the foot ropes.

 

 

The state of the ship before progressing on to the Mizzen Mast.  Click to enlarge.

 

 

 

Cheers, Gil

Edited October 12, 2014 by gil middleton

[freewheelinguy]

Gil,

 

Wonderful build.  Always enjoy reading and seeing your updates.  Thanks for posting your detailed information.

 

I noticed in your last pic's a lazy susan?  This has been on my mind as I got closer to starting the rigging.  My other builds were small enough to just turn in my hands.  This is exactly what I want to do.  I'm just finishing up the bowsprit and the lazy susan table top to extend my work surface is next before rigging starts.  Did you put in stops or it it free moving? 

 

Len

[augie]

That's a good set of eyes there, Len.  Looking at Gil's great work I didn't notice it.  Could be a really fine idea !!

[Sailor1234567890]

Gil, I'm already rigging her. Wish I'd have found this site before I started building the hull though. I'll try to get pictures up and a build log started at some point but the Christmas season seems to drain time away like water from a bathtub.

[fnkershner]

Gil - Judy is a saint. I can't wait to show Carol these pictures of your work table. She keeps telling me it has to be outside.

[gil middleton]

Hi Len,  No stops on the Lazy Susan. Not a bad idea though.  It certainly helped with tensioning the shrouds and backstays, and leveling the yards with topping lifts.  I've held off on the driver boom since it will limit the swing.

 

Looking forward to your build log Daniel. 

 

Floyd,  After Mike Graff's photography workship, I tried posterboard which was inadequate, and finally found a baby blue pull down shade.  If I painted some clouds on it, would it look more real?

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2014 by gil middleton

[Jim Lad]

Just catching up, Gil.  She really is the goods!

 

John

[fnkershner]

Gil - I like it. no one will know the difference when you are up close. And I want to see those clouds.

 

PS I still have the blue cloth from that class.

[gil middleton]

Floyd,  You can see that I chose the easy path.  Hanging a sheet each time for a photo would be a pain.

John and Lawrence,  Many thanks and a timely Merry Christmas ( 9:30 pm in Sidney? ) and wishes for a great New Year.  Gil

[gjdale]

Hi Gil,

 

Just wondering if you'd seen the PM I sent you the other day? Please forgive me for pestering you - I know it can get pretty hectic this time of year.

 

Cheers,

Grant

[gil middleton]

Hi Grant,  I did get your message and responded with a fairly long reply plus three photographs.  Of course I have no idea where it went after I pressed send.  It's probably hiding never to be seen again. So here it is again and a very Merry Christmas (past tense) to you and yours.

 

You certainly raise an interesting conundrum. I think that by all your reading, you are correct in the distribution of the brace block pendants (not located on the topmast yards and topgallant yards).  I also looked back in Longridge, McGowan and McKay's books and came to the same conclusion.  On the other hand, I took my lead from photos of the real ship, as it has been restored (supposedly to Trafalgar status).  In some ways I suspect we are both right.  Longridge is the best source one could ever find, however, it is based on observations made 60 years ago and on the restoration of the Victory in 1922.  But then McKay's drawings reaffirm Longridge's statments.  I'm at something of a loss since in cleaning out papers and old manuscripts, I apparently threw away the JoTika plans for the braces.  JoTika kindly mailed me a new plan sheet but I haven't received it yet. I think further clouding the issue is my belief that different captains, sailing masters and bo's'n mates altered rigging to their own preferences.  An example: adding bentink shrouds to stiffen the rig to point slightly higher to the  wind and gain the weather gage on an opponent, or changing the rake of the mast to improve sailing performance and reduce weather helm.  I think we'd have to talk with Captain Hardy for the real answer.

 

The attached photos of the real ship clearly show the yard tackle pendant on the lower yard, and brace block pendants on the topmast yard and topgallant yards.  Is it correct?????  From the point of view of presentation, I like the look of the pendants so I'll probably keep them.

 

Thanks for the fun of comparing notes, and a Happy New Year.   Gil

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2014 by gil middleton

[gil middleton]

Grant,  This just in.  The JoTika rigging plans show brace block pendants on the Foremast yard, topmast yard and topgallant yard, Mainmast yard, topmast yard and topgallant yard, Crossjack yard and Mizzen topmast yard. No pendant is shown on the Mizzen topgallant yard.  Cheers, Gil

[gjdale]

Hi Gil,

 

Thank you so very much for your detailed reply to my query, though I have no idea what might have happened within the PM system. Your reply certainly answers the question as to why the differences among sources, even if we can't be definitive about which is "correct". I also think you are right in saying that so much depended on the whim of the Captain at the time. Having mulled this over for a few days now, I have come to the decision that I will stick with Longridge. If he is wrong, then I'll be happy to be wrong with him. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts and sources. This is one of the great strengths of this forum, that we can share our collective knowledge and research.

 

Cheers,

Grant

[gil middleton]

For those interested in the presence or absence of brace block pendants, I'd suggest you go to Grant's log (gjdale) for a more complete discussion.  Grant fosters such interesting responses and better discussions than I.  Thanks Grant.

[gil middleton]

RIGGING THE CROSSJACK YARD

 

The first two photos show the served yard sling, foot rope stirrups (24 g. dark annealed steel wire), brace block pendants, and topping lift blocks and topsail sheets blocks stropped together.  Since no course is attached to the crossjack yard, there are no clue, sheet or tack blocks.

 

 

The next wo photos show details at the center including the single truss pendant, battens, yard cleats and the pin to the mast.  Reference to the "pin" is made in the next post.

 

 

 

 

[gil middleton]

The "pin to mast" is perhaps the most helpful tip in simplifying rigging.  I've mentioned it before but only in passing.  Not original.  I picked up the idea from Bob Hunt.

 

In the real ship, yards have great weight placing tension on lifts, slings and jeers.  On the model, the small dowels are so light that tensioning support rigging simply raises the yard.  By pinning the yard to the mast, one can tension the lifts, slings and pendants without the counterpull of down hauls, yard sling pendants, etc.

 

 

Many, perhaps most of us, already use this technique, but for those who are rigging for the first time, or who have trouble adjusting tension, the "pin" greatly simplifies the process.  I drill a hole in the yard and the mast and glue the pin in the yard (5-15 sec.  C/A).  Adding glue to the pin, the yard is placed on the mast.  After about 30 seconds, I move the yard ends slightly up and down, and fore and aft.  The yard is held firmly to the mast but allows enough movement to level the yards with the topping lifts and align the yards athwartships with the braces. The pin is not visible from port or starboard.  The port view shows the single truss pendant.

 

 

Truss pendant tackle.

 

 

Topping lifts rigged but slack.  The hole in the topmast for the topmast yard pin can be seen.

 

 

A lucky break at the Kirkland Shipyard.  Venetian blinds help to level the crossjack yard.

 

 

Topping lifts are tensioned to level the yard.

 

 

 

[Ensign]

Hi Gil

 

I have just started on the Caldercraft Victory and have been following your build with great interest, marvellous work. Could you please tell me at what point in the build you drilled out the dummy gun strips for the middle and lower dummy gun barrels, and what method you used to ensure they all lined up correctly. I have the gun patterns in place and have started the first planking. I thought at this point I might drill out the gun strips but having looked at them I am thinking this may not be the right time. Look forward to your advice.

 

Gary

[gjdale]

Hi Gil,

 

As always your log is both informative and instructive. The "pin to mast" idea looks to be a really good one. I may just unrig my fore topsail and topgallant yards to retro fit these. As I'm now leaning towards the fitting of brace pendants, it would be easier to do this off the model anyway, so no real loss in unrigging these yards.