HMS Victory by dafi - Heller - PLASTIC - To Victory and beyond ...

[WackoWolf]

Yea, I want to ride that and more than onces

[druxey]

Very impressive rigging work at that scale, Dafi!

[popeye the sailor]

while Daniel's is much more fun and Jan's makes me think of my trip to work.......they both lead back to where one started      when progress is made in between,  makes the trip all the better!  

[dafi]

Thank you Mark, Frank, Jan, Wacko, druxey and Pop, very appreciated!

 

and miracles do happen: Univers gave me a nice X-Mess-presi - some tinkering time :-) 

 

A short look back:

Some time I discovered on the William Turner drawings from late 1805 some details on the poop deck rails. After some fruitful discussions it proved to be most likely some fair lead rollers that were used for hauling some rope from the poop deck rigging, due to the limited space there and the restricted access. So plenty of men could pull the strings from the quarter deck, with more ease. 

More here: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13182-thinking-things-through-detail-in-turners-work-on-the-poop-deck-railing/

 

Also the helm indicator was rediscovered on the drawing and also to be seen on the contemporary model from 1765. Reason enough not to omit this one any longer ;-)

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13202-thinking-things-through-axiometer-or-helm-indicator/

 

So then off it went :-)

 

First the still missing most upfront deck beam still had to be placed. The white sheet served for positioning.

 

 

Then some trials to get the proportions of the clamps and rollers correct..

 

 

Here in comparison to the Heller Part, that is based upon todays state of the Vic in P.

 

 

Then slowly getting in touch with the base part of the rail.

 

 

Clamp and rollers are composed out of several small parts to give a defined form.

 

 

And then on location. The gaps on the sides will disappear on the final fixing, as the material easily bends in the shape of the curve of the deck.

 

 

Splashed some paint ...

 

 

... and placed in place.

 

 

 

 

XXXDAn

Edited December 28, 2016 by dafi

[dafi]

Thank you Nicolas.

 

I did not come as far as I wanted this year but some minor things were done. Finally I found the time to document the set of my etch and to not make it too boring I made a test shot in two versions: Once the classical "Portsmouth Condition", build already more than a fantastillion times (or at least started) and afterwards a version, that comes nearer to my personal best educated guess of the "real Trafalgar Condition". 

 

But anyway, this is only a current score, as more input is always on the way in ...

 

First the "classical" Victory, Portsmouth Condition.

 

Channels 

 

First the more sophisticated version with thinned needle heads and broadened channel whales ...

 

 

... and the more simple to build version with normal needle heads.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fore channels of the kit are to narrow and should be enlarged for the deadeyes not to collide with the hammock cranes.

 

 

 

[dafi]

The figure head

 

 

 

 

 

The mariners walk needs some new holes

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dafi]

The forecastle with the one sided storage of the pikes

 

 

 

 

 

 

The waist with the spare spars

 

 

 

[dafi]

The quarter deck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The poop deck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dafi]

Hammock cranes

 

 

 

 

 

Gun ports

 

 

 

 

 

 

Side entry port

 

 

[dafi]

Stern, lanterns, side davits

 

 

 

 

 

Mast tops

 

 

 

 

Draught marks

 

 

 

 

[dafi]

Anchors, anchor shoes and buoys

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dafi]

Trafalgar Condition?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But it will stay thrilling as already since I build this, evidence freshly says that the small gangways to the poop were leveled to the poop deck and therefor the hammock cranes went more forward :-)

 

But all in all, I do believe, one can make something nice out off this old kit :-)

 

 

XXXDan

[Morgan]

Dafi,

Nicely done, this mirrors what Turner witnessed firsthand.

There is one more Turner sketch of note 'The Victory: From Poop to Quaterdeck, this shows that the Forecastle at the Beakhead Bulkhead was also built up, please see image below, you can see the bulkhead gunport on the right quite clearly.. Sorry to spring this when you have gone to such trouble but I know you are striving for the most accurate interpretation.

 

Although I've reviewed the sketches previously on this forum, I missed this one, but picked it up in the Trafalgar Chronicle: Number 26 published in November this year. One of the articles by John Conover reviews the Turner Sketches and picks up on the Beakhead Bulkhead barricade, it also draws strong parallels between the 1803 model in the National Maritime Museum (model SLR0513), including a potential different configuration of the stem works (Victory as is now being a 20th Century re-interpretation). It postulates that the 1803 model was a projected re-fit which was never fully completed, but has strong correlations to the Turner sketches.

 

I believe that John Conover may have published a similar article on the full NRG forum, perhaps someone who has access could check.

 

Well worth a read.

Gary

Edited December 31, 2016 by Morgan

[dafi]

Thank you for your most valuable input Gary. I know both the drawing and John´s immensely interesting analysis.

 

For my personal taste I do not jump yet for the full and solid barricade versus the rail - either as it is seen today or as seen on SLR0513. The drawings are not that clear to me and too, this was a heavily repaired area after the battle. If the barricade was there, I wished too to know how all the belaying points are handled, that are fixed on the rail. But there is still some research to be done about the beakhead-bulkhead rail/barricade, so things stay exciting :-)

 

About the article of John there are very interesting and controversial points in there, things that I love :-)

 

Some of his interpretations of the Turner drawings are very well discovered, with others I am not the same opinion, but it is good for the cause to have different points of view. A big flaw in the argumentation is, that he takes two models in account that NMM labels as "Victory" but I strongly believe them not to be. Look here: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/6044-wrong-identified-models-of-hms-victory-in-nmm/?hl=slr0513

 

I do not know, if we are allowed to show the article here, it would be great, as it would nicely light up the discussion :-)

 

Cheers, Daniel

 

PS: Just discovered a nice detail on the drawing: The main stay and preventer stay pass on different sides of the fore mast :-0

Edited December 31, 2016 by dafi

[Morgan]

Hi Daniel,

 

Every time I look at the Turner prints I see something new as well, and agree this is a debate worth continuing with.

 

I've also overlain prints from SLR0513 over John McKay's drawings and agree there are major differences (as well as the similarities to the Turner prints), I think it may be intended to be the Victory, but was hypothetical, and very much intended to portray a concept for re-fit and is not based on the original framing plans as the gun port disposition is all wrong.

 

One difficulty is putting out of our minds HMS Victory as we see her today and assuming she is anything like she was at Trafalgar, the battle altered her, the post battle repairs altered her, the Seppings style refit altered her bow lines, the Victorians butchered her appearance all the more, and the early 20th century reconstruction to me seems very stylised taking her back to a time before her pre-Trafalgar refit. 

 

Hope fully more contemporary sources can be uncovered, just got to keep on looking and debating  

 

Gary

[dafi]

Hello Gary, yes I think, there is much more to unearth :-)

 

In this context, has anybody knowledge how to get hold on Mr. Rivers sketch-/notebook? He was gunner on the Vic from 1790 to 1812 and excerpts have been published in some literature.

 

 

                                          #911                         

 

                                          #917                         

 

 

That is why I am looking for this source out of the Royal Naval Museum: William Rivers (1755-1817), gunner on HMS Victory: gunnery notes (Acc 1998/41)

 

Does anybody have any copies of that or know hoe to access that?

 

XXXDAn

[popeye the sailor]

awesome progress Daniel      if anyone could make something out of this kit........you sure did!

[dafi]

Ok, time to do some stupid things ...

 

... I! WANT! ... I! WANT! ... I! WANT! ...

 

... sails :-)

 

For some time already - actually years - I was cogitating about how to do the sails. For scale reason I do not like the cloth ones as for their too coarse structure, paper ones almost always end up with small crisps and waves from painting. Silk is too transparent. Paper easily gets crisps and tears and rips if formed in a wet state. Cloth is too rigid for my scale to give a realistic fall of the folds, paper is ...

 

Also I wanted to find something more realistic for the usual way of imitating the seams with pencil - or even worse black stitches. In reality the stitches themselves are mostely invisible as they have a similar color to the sail. What one can see is a difference in transparency as the area of the stitches consists of 4-time folded cloth, being almost invisible with light from the front and to be seen as a "shadow" of blocked light if it comes from behind.

 

Could go on for ages lamenting. So I decided to laminate ...

(Got the pun?)

 

That is why I wanted to try a unusual test, combining both materials. Cloth with paper glued to both sides, thus giving the better paper structure but using the strength of the cloth within. By using wall paper glue, I aimed in being able to soften up the sail where needed by wetness or steam to be able to form the sail afterwards.

 

One still is young and has dreams ...

 

So on we went, trying out a series of small squares of 5 cm of different cloths and papers and surprisingly this crackpot idea really seemed to be not completely out of this world.

 

So and even further we went, investing in a wedge frame, putting the Silk of pongé 5 - the thinnest I could get - onto it ...

 

 

... and evenly spreading the glue. Then ading the thinnest paper I had on both sides. And one sees immediately the problem, the paper gives: the waves and crisps.

 

 

Got better after drying ...

 

 

... the transparency was perfect ...

 

 

... but the sidelight revealed the small crisps still being there. 

 

 

Next I tried to glue the seams onto this base which did not work at all, as the paper got soft with the glue ...

 

 

... ripping to shreds and proving its unwillingness not to perform straight lines :-(

[dafi]

So I went on to search for different kind of papers and found something from the restoration department :-)

 

Immediately had to try this out - and I never have been that near to what was being encapsulated in my strange brainsalads ...

 

 

... the back side was without any crisps ...

 

 

... and the transparency was perfect too ...

 

 

... and if I still manage to fit the doubling on the front and back sides to to match ...

 

... and I further on renounce to put two strips of "canvas" atop each other - as to be seen in strip n#6 -...

 

... yep, then ...

 

...

 

...hihihihihihihihi...

 

That is why I immediately did the next test piece. And got the appearence even closer to my aim. The doubling is made a layer thicker as it consists in reality of 4 layers of cloth, not just two.

Also I added some copper thread in the seam, even though it will possibly be a bit difficult in a larger sail.

 

 

Then painted with some diluted wall paper glue dyed very carefully with a mixture of 3 parts light grey and one part yellow ochre :-)

 

 

Here some shots of the nice play with light, changing appearance from frontal, side and back light

 

 

 

 

 

Slowly we go :-)

 

... slowly ...

 

 

XXXDAn

Edited January 15, 2017 by dafi

[Kevin]

wow, love the sails work, lol you still have my attention

[Old Collingwood]

Wonder if this painting by turner might help in relation to her Trafalger condition.

 

OC.

[druxey]

Your experiments look very effective, Daniel. Try using acrylic paint with a ruling pen to get the seam doubling with less transparency and see what you think. I've used this  very effectively at a much larger scale (1:48) on SilkSpan. One needs to pre-stretch any paper as one would for watercolor paper to avoid sags and wrinkles when wetted. Also, Silkspan won't tear when wet.

[popeye the sailor]

interesting thought about sails.......do you think it would be susceptible to cracking over time?

[AndyW]

Awesome work Daniel, truly inspirational.

 

I know it is debated all over the did she didn't she lol well to add another twist to the debate.. Was flicking through one of my many books, a cheap book that I had picked up just because, had it for over a year and barely looked at it.

 

It is called the Nelson Encyclopedia by Colin White, anyway one of the many images enclosed is an engraving dated 1778 clearly shows the entry port on the Stbd side.

 

Also stern galleries and the more elaborate figure head.

 

 

However in the book (not the ebook version by the same authors which is totally different) HMS Victory First Rate 1765 includes an excerpt from the sketch book of Midshipman Richard F Roberts, the sketch shows the side steps but no entry port lol

 

The book is by Jonathan Eastland and Iain Ballantyne, in the paperback version there is only a little narrative but a great collection of photographs, where the ebook version is a History of the Victory with reference from the very first ship of the name, got the ebook free when I ordered the paperback.

Edited February 6, 2017 by AndyW

[dafi]

Hello Andi :-)

 

The last engraving with Victory showing the old fashioned entry port - as depicted in Slade´s drafts - is 1779 Victory, „Sailing by the White Cliffs of Dover“.

 

In 1780 she had a refit also and was coppered for the first time - and since that day the port vanished from all sources until it reappeared in 1828 after another repair. But by then, the port was one more opening further in the back. Since then it was to be seen in all sources until it was moved to todays position in the 1920/30ies.

 

The disappearing side entry port is nothing specific to the Vic, it started to disappear from all first and second rates around 1760, the time of the Seven Years' War and the War of Independence - high times on the seas and plenty of trouble with the french. A coincidence? The ports just started to reappear around 1803/1805.

 

XXXDAn

Edited February 7, 2017 by dafi

[AndyW]

One Daniel care package great fully received

 

Surprised at the weight, quality etched parts indeed, although my scale is going to be 1:94 not too much difference and as discussed can be built around, ie already decided that the binnacle and poop skylight will be Walnut framed with the etched parts used as/converted to insert pieces this gives me the wood and brass mix, also lets me jig around any scale issues.

 

Thanks again.

[dafi]

To put the rule to the test, or - in other words - here comes the big rag, part 1.

 

To get the overlap right this time I constructed a small light table: 2 logs, some glas and a lamp.

 

 

Above light from underneath, below light from the top.

 

 

To get things straight I printed the pattern onto a paper and glued it face down onto the glas with a minimum spray glue.

As I also sprayed the back of the paper, the silk is nicely fixed and does not move while working. Do not face the print towards the 

silk, or the heat will transfer the laser toner onto the tissue - unless it is wanted :-)

 

The silk I used for the gaff was is pongée 8 as this sail was a more heavy cloth.

 

Constructed a small cutting machine for the panels ...

 

 

... and started bravely ironing. First side went rather fast, then flipped over, adjusted to the grid and restarted and went immediately tilted ...

 

 

... but was no problem to scratch that off :-) 

 

Here the result in changing ambient light conditions, just what I wanted to see, every time it looks different :-)

 

 

 

 

 

The overlap is still to broad, that was a mistake of mine. To make the overlap more visible, I still added a 1 mm stripe atop, see the spaghetti in the back of the picture. It was surprisingly easy to do and exact in the outcome. 

 

 

Then the slightly curved reef bands and the other doublings ...

 

 

... and step one was done.

 

The size of the sail can be seen as soon as my little ship yard worker is added. 

 

 

 

And just for fun: The original out of the box :-) :-) :-)

 

 

So next steps will be great fun: Adding the bolt ropes and the glue-paint mixture and waiting if everything stays as crisp as it is now!

 

XXXDAn

Edited February 8, 2017 by dafi

[Blue Ensign]

Wonderful concept Daniel, and a great result at only 1:100 scale  

 

Great stuff.

 

M.

[amateur]

Are you going to do furled sails, or sails that are partially taken in ( like in the original Heller version )

 

Jan

[Richardjjs]

On ‎16‎/‎02‎/‎2013 at 0:12 AM, dafi said:

The following period was my own research for how far I would like to go in the details.

 

 

 

 

Most time went into the chainplates, as I don´t like the photo etched parts to much because of their flatness and as I could not find in those days any reference on the internet onto how to massproduce these parts in a sufficient quality. I had to learn how to solder and I finally got the results that I was searching for:

 

 

 

 

 

Hellers interpretation of the chainplates im memoriam:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and my interpretation on a test piece

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Further came the cannons with all necessairy bolts and breeching rings ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... and the carronades with wheels and elevation screw

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The chimney got the handles and the frontcover and the belfry it´s handle

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One big decision was taken at this stage too: the lower gundeck got it´s riding bitts, manger and the pumps and will still recieve full traetment :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The last of the "normal" adaptations was to try out the selfadhesive Tiffany copper foil for the copperworks which worked marvellously and will be used. The picture does not pay justice to the apparence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At this moment, the directions for me were set :-)

 

MMnn. Shame you didnt look at the way the copper was laid. Starting from the Stern each plate slightly overlapped the one behined it. They where laid like Tiles NOT Bricks. It was laid this way to prevent the sea from tearing of the tiles. While the way you have laid then ie Along the waterline LOOKS right (and better) the tiles dropped towards to keel towards the centre of the ship
When I buildt my Victory in the 80's I even used sal almonac to weather the copper. (But did lay the tiles alnong the water line like you have
Rest of the ship looksawesome
Regards