ccoyle

Sorry to hear about your injury, but glad to see you are back on the horse. And congrats on the new little one as well!

Doesn't hurt to ask them. Worst case scenario is you have to buy another kit somewhere, either from ME or on eBay, and it's a pretty small outlay of additional capital.

I like the tab-and-slot concept. HMV, of course, don't subscribe to that particular design philosophy; it eliminates the need for buying the extra laser-cut set (or cutting the formers from heavy card -- ugh), but it means that there is more capacity for error when putting one of their hulls together. A good substructure can make or break a build!

Hi, friends! I want to give you a preview of a new feature we are adding to the build logs section. Right now we are in the process of adding the word "FINISHED" to each completed build log immediately after the builder's username. Titles of finished logs will now look something like this: HMS Doohickey by allthumbs - FINISHED - 1/50 scale Why are we doing this? Because it makes it easier for you to use our search feature to find only finished models if you wish to do so. Plus, it eliminates the need for a separate forum for finished models. Here's how to do it: 1) Start in the Build Logs for Ship Model Kits forum. 2) Up by the search window in the upper right corner, click the little gear symbol to pull up the advanced search options. 3) Enter the name of the ship you're looking for and the word 'finished'. 4) Select the "all words" and "only search in titles" options. 5) Hit the SEARCH NOW button 6) Presto! You'll get a list of finished models. Wanna test drive? Try searching the term Constitution using the above directions. If you want to see all finished models, just search the term 'finished' by itself. Narrowing your search to finished builds is useful for finding builds that illustrate later steps of construction, such as rigging. That way you can skip past builds that end at earlier stages of construction. Once we get all the kit builds tagged appropriately, we will add the finished tag to the scratch build section as well. We added the word in all caps so that finished build logs will stand out if you decide to browse logs the old-fashioned way. Enjoy!

Awesome! Love your choice of subject and the fact that you're going all-in with the after-market details. The one thing I wish the Russians/Ukrainians would add to their offerings is laser-cut detail sets, such as those produced by HMV. These are both cheaper and infinitely easier to work with. This should build into a very nice model. Good luck!

Check this link for articles on kits at the NRG main site.

It's worth pointing out that beginner over-reach is not unique to our hobby, nor is cautioning zealous newcomers. Just today I stumbled across a video with the same message aimed at beginning fishkeepers. No doubt a concerted search effort would turn up many more.

One last update: Please remember, the target audience for the original post was FIRST-TIME Modelers. It was intended as a cautionary tale and no more. It was not a grievance about unfinished build logs. Unfinished logs are what they are -- unfinished logs. We don't need (or even desire) to cull them. We have plenty of room for them. I have heavily edited my original post to 'soften' its perceived tone a bit, and I have deleted portions of a few other posts that referenced portions of the original post that have been removed. When this conversation has run its course, I will probably further prune this thread a bit simply to make it more relevant to new members. None of my posts were intended to give offense, and I have taken none in return. If you feel the need to post in this thread, I only ask that you keep it civil, and try to keep it on-topic (and yes, I know I made the comment about corgis -- that post will be pruned, too). Cheers, everyone.

At the risk of stirring the pot further, I think some members are missing the point I intended to make. The original post wasn't aimed at modelers who have lost interest in a particular build but are still active in the hobby. Many of us have such models in limbo somewhere. Heck, I have three of them myself. The intended audience is brand-new potential builders, many who are entering the hobby with palpable enthusiasm, as evidenced by the following quotes culled from several dead build logs: These folks chose the hobby after much consideration, were eager to get started, and hoped to continue beyond their first build. But they didn't. As I stated previously, these builders never got past the hull. Most of them barely got started, and most are now inactive. Is it possible they finished, but maybe didn't post progress for whatever reason? Sure - but you guys know as well as I do that that is unlikely. The title of this thread says cautionary tale. That's really the purpose of the thread -- to get new modelers to stop, think about what ship they may be considering building, examine the abundant evidence of newbies attempting too much in a first-time project, and get them to seriously think about setting their sights a little lower. Perhaps even lower than a Sultana or AVS -- those are still pretty complex projects, even if they are marketed as beginner models. How many of those modelers might still be in the hobby if they had exercised some caution, backed away from the big three-masters, and started with a dinghy, longboat, or small sailboat? Am I saying that a newcomer can't try to tackle the ship of their dreams? Of course not. But they should know going in that if they do in fact finish it, they'll be a member of a very small club.

But you have a corgi, and that more than makes up for any modeling deficiencies.

Jud, I think you misunderstand my motivation for starting this thread. I'm not trying to 'judge' anyone, and I'm not saying a beginner can't complete a complex model (we've all seen it done). But in the pages of MSW 2.0, its predecessor MSW 1.0, the old Dry Dock Models forum, and the anecdotal evidence provided by manufacturers, we have overwhelming evidence that newbies regularly attempt more model than they are capable of handling. We don't send first-time skiers to the black diamond runs, and we don't let first-year medical students do heart transplants -- the same principle applies to ship models: try something commensurate with one's skills. I'm really not trying to turn people away -- I'm trying to help them make a choice of first model that will increase their chance of staying in the hobby. Success breeds more success. And haven't we all read about the much-bemoaned demise of the hobby? Hundreds (quite literally) of people quitting their attempts at building certainly doesn't alleviate that problem.

Dear prospective ship modeler, Welcome! If you're reading this, it's probably because you are ready and raring to get started on a first ship model. But before you do, allow me to share the following with you. We get a lot of first-time builders on this forum. People who are eager to build a first ship model are attracted to the hobby for a variety of reasons. Perhaps you were captivated by a stunning model of the USS Constitution or the HMS Victory. Maybe you have a beloved relative who was a modeler. Or it could be that you just have a love of the sea, even if you've never sailed on anything larger than a rowboat. All of us came to MSW with similar motivations. Those of us who have been at this for a while not only love the hobby, but also love passing along our experience to new builders. It's a special treat to see a new modeler persevere through the joys and sorrows (and often tedium) of building a ship model and arrive successfully at the end of a build with a finished model to be proud of. Unfortunately, many of those eager new members also turn out to be last-time builders as well. There are lots of reasons why a first-timer might give up. Building a nice ship model requires the learning of many new skills, a not inconsiderable amount of tenacity, and usually a significant time investment. Some new modelers get bored, others get overwhelmed, and some get overtaken by things like career changes, cross-country moves, babies, sudden illnesses -- that life stuff we all have to deal with occasionally. We understand those things happen. We get it. This post, though, is written for a particular kind of first-time modeler: the modeler who takes on more ship then they can handle. Unfortunately, this kind of modeler is all too common. Bewitched by a clipper ship or sailing man-of-war, this kind of newbie believes that they can jump right in and build something similar. Allow me to use an analogy. I'm not a pilot, but I love old warbirds. Suppose I go to an airshow and, having been awed by the spectacle, decide to go out and buy a P-51 and take her up for a few high-g maneuvers. All with no flying experience, mind you. I don't have to tell you how that first flight is likely to end up. Sadly, many of the newcomers to MSW have a similar experience with model ships. They come brimming with pluck and determination, convinced that they can build a Constitution or Victory. In most instances, these bright-eyed neophytes wind up like the over-zealous new P-51 owner -- dead. Well, unlike the pilot, the would-be modelers are probably still alive, but their dreams of nice model ships have certainly gone to a better place. Now, before I go any further, allow me to make a few things perfectly clear. Am I saying that a new modeler should never attempt a complicated model or that newcomers never finish such models? No, I'm not saying that. There are a few modelers who have attempted such projects and completed them, so it is certainly possible. But those modelers are very few in number. And we don't have any rules about what kind of model you can or can't build around here. If you absolutely, positively have to have a crack at a three-decker or frigate, then have at it. We'll be glad to help you along the way. But just be aware ahead of time how much of a challenge you are getting yourself into. Let me throw some numbers at you to illustrate my point. One of my jobs here at MSW is to comb through old build logs and edit the titles of completed builds to show that the model has been finished (it makes searching for finished models easier). Obviously, as I sift through the builds I find many unfinished ones. On just one page that I was recently checking, I found twelve unfinished build logs started by first-time builders. In ten of those build logs, the new builder never made it past completing the hull of his ship. In the other two, the builder never started the model at all. Nine of those twelve modelers are no longer active on this site. I did not include among those twelve modelers any who gave a life-got-in-the-way reason for suspending their build. They're simply twelve modelers who eagerly started their project and then, usually quite early on, just gave up and quietly disappeared without giving any reasons why. Those twelve builds all had one thing in common: each modeler had chosen a model that posed significant challenges for a first-time builder. Some of those models would have been a challenge even for a skilled builder. Simply put, they doomed their attempt at modeling by choosing a model that was over their head. All of us ship modelers know how real the temptation is to skip an entry-level model and go straight for lots of guns and lots of sails. But here's the whole point I want to make: seriously think twice about caving into that temptation. The evidence speaks for itself - literally hundreds of abandoned build logs begun by modelers who bit off more than they could chew. Many of them not only abandoned their build, they also gave up on the hobby entirely. It didn't have to be that way. Making a good start by honestly appraising your skill level and deciding to go with a simple first model is one of the surest ways to success in this hobby. Most true beginner models -- those actually designed for beginners and not merely labeled as such -- don't require a lot of money, time, or expensive tools. In a few weeks you'll know if this hobby is for you without having gotten yourself worked up over a model you couldn't realistically complete. And you know, most of us here enjoy watching the progress on a relatively 'easy' model, like a small sailboat, just as much as we enjoy watching the progress on an HMS Victory -- especially when we see those models being finished and proudly displayed. And you know what? Success breeds further success. For more information on choosing a first model, check out the NRG modeling resources page. Choose wisely, enjoy the journey, and I look forward to seeing you complete your first build log. Respectfully, Chris

Check Loyalhanna Dockyard. I have no personal experience with them, but they've been around for a while.

Por favor, que es necesario para publicar mensajes en Inglés . Utilizar un traductor de Internet, si es necesario. Gracias.

Read the article here, if you wish. I'm only sharing this because it is a shining example of extremely poor journalism. Contrary to the assertion that the story of the Cap Arcona's demise in 1945 has lain secret for 70 years, the story has long been known to those of us with an interest in the history of that period. HMV have offered a very nice model of the ship for at least a decade. Sigh ... another news 'story' that's really no story at all.

I edited your title to show the scale as 1:64 instead of 64:1. The latter would certainly make an impressive model, though!

Brian's point about ME pricing is worth noting. The seller should be made aware that he can't reasonably expect to use ME's MSRP pricing as a starting point. Over the years, I have seen many ME and MM models sold on eBay. Some of those older ME kits are still in production and pretty much identical to a kit being made now, so they should be priced based on what a current 2nd-hand, unbuilt, NIB kit could reasonably fetch. The price for anything OOP, and that includes all the MM kits, is going to depend on 1) the condition of the kit and 2) the subject. An old solid-hull Bluenose, for example, might not be worth much because the market's flooded with Bluenose kits, both old and new. An ME Forrester, on the other hand, is a rarer kit and only infrequently turns up on eBay, so it tends to go for a little more. Some of the really old kits might have some collector value, but what that value might be is going to require some research, like digging back through eBay's sold listings to see what the kit has sold for in the recent past. I think the seller should also realize that selling his kits as a single lot is going to cost him. Anyone who buys the whole lot with an eye towards reselling them is taking a risk; some kits are going to sell well and for a good price, and others are going to be hard to get rid of and will probably be worth little. The buyer has to take that into account if he's hoping to make a little profit, and that means he's going to have offer less than what the seller might be able to get if the seller sold the kits individually himself. Essentially, the seller will have to pay for the convenience of getting rid of the entire lot at one shot.

Por favor, que es necesario para publicar mensajes en Inglés . Utilizar un traductor de Internet, si es necesario. Gracias.

Last installment! Have you ever watched the show Pawn Stars on the History Channel? In this show, clients bring their treasures to the Gold & Silver Pawn Shop in Las Vegas, Nevada. The viewers then learn about the history of the item brought in and, ultimately, how much the item is worth. Most of the time, the owner hears that their treasure is not worth as much as they thought. Every once in a blue moon, though, some lucky owner discovers that their item is actually worth more than what they had estimated -- occasionally far more. But these instances are rare. Such is the case with model ships. There are lots of model ships out there in the world, but relatively few of them are worth much. Many are essentially worthless, at least in monetary terms. In this episode, we'll look further into what makes a model valuable. Let's suppose you have a model that you have decided looks like a real scale model and not a piece of mass-produced decor. Now you're hoping that since it's a real scale model, it must surely have value. Not so fast! There are models, and then there are models that people actually want and will pay good money for. To illustrate this point, I'm going to show you two real scale models. One is worth some money, and the other, sadly, is not. First take a look at this model. It's a model of a real ship, the English revenue cutter Sherbourne, built in 1763 (the real ship, that is -- not the model). You might be thinking that it's a nice model. You might even think that it's worth something. Except this is the cheap model. If you or I were to take my model -- I mean, ahem, this model -- to a gallery thinking we've got a treasure, we'd be in for disappointment. To you this model might look great, but to the keen eye of a discriminating collector or knowledgeable gallery owner, it's got problems. The biggest problem is that it's made from a kit. You might not be able to tell that by looking at it, but savvy modelers, collectors, and gallery owners will immediately recognize this fact. Because it's built from a kit, this model is also not unique. There are dozens, possibly hundreds, of finished Sherbourne models out there. Besides being made from a kit, it's also made by a modeler with middling talent. Again, you might think the model is done very nicely, but experts will spot the amateur workmanship right away. Some visible aspects of the model are not true to the original, and techniques were used to make the model easier to build at the expense of scale fidelity. All of these things are knocks against the monetary value of the model. But there's something even worse about this model: it's simply not what most buyers want. There are exceptions, of course, but the really pricey models out there, the ones that collectors are willing to shell out several thousand dollars for, generally have three things: Lots of guns. Lots of rigging (sails and cordage) Lots of fancy ornamentation. My model -- I mean, ahem, the previous model -- has none of these things. It has few guns, little rigging, and essentially no ornamentation. What could a seller expect to be paid for a model like this? If the seller is lucky (really lucky) and can find an actual buyer for the model, he might be able to squeeze a couple hundred dollars out of it. That's, barely enough to even cover the cost of the kit and certainly not enough to make modeling a profitable enterprise. Guns, rigging, fancy stuff -- that's what collectors want. Something like this model of HMS Thunderer: Why might this model be worth some dough? Consider the following: It has lots of guns (well, at least the gun ports for them). It has lots of rigging. It has lots of fancy decoration. It's scratch built, not made from a kit. That means it's a unique piece of art, not one of dozens of built-up kits. It's built to a high standard of workmanship. Someone who builds models like this has spent a lot of time honing his or her skills. Like any commodity, the prices fetched by model ships are based on two factors: suply and demand. Lots of people would like to own a museum-quality model. But the number of builders who can build such models is low. Furthermore, it takes a lot of time to build such models, so the output of them is low as well. High demand + low availability = high prices. For a model like the earlier Sherbourne, the equation is low demand + high availability = low prices. That's it in a nutshell. Like the folks hoping to strike it rich at the pawn shop, most model ship owners are going to experience a letdown when they hear what their 'treasure' is really worth. But cheer up - that unwanted model will still look good on your mantel, which can't be said for a Trabant! Cheers!

In this next installment of How to Spot a Cheap Model, I'll show you the difference between a mass-produced model and an actual scale model built by a master modeler. Once you know what to look for, the cheap stuff is not hard to identify (and by 'cheap' I mean poorly made, not inexpensive). We're going to examine the stern of each model, so that we can see up close what separates class from crass. Both of the models I'll show you are of the famous American warship, the USS Constitution. First we'll look at the high-quality model. This model is built from scratch in 1/48th scale. It was listed for sale at a reputable maritime art gallery. The price of the model was not listed. It's kind of like shopping on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills -- if you have to ask the price, you probably can't afford it. The fine craftsmanship of this model is everywhere evident. Note the detailed carvings, the meticulously neat painting, the clean run of planking, and the intricate web of rigging. True modelers endeavor to create models that are replicas of the original in every detail, with every part correctly proportioned. A great model looks like a real ship, only much smaller. Now let's look at the expensive kindling. This model was once available on-line for $535. The owner of the site claimed that the model was built by "master craftsmen" using "original plans". It was described as "highly detailed" and built from "high-grade wood" using "plank on frame" construction. Friends, none of those things was true. This model was probably built in either the Philippines or Vietnam by laborers who have never seen any plans of the actual Constitution. If they did see the plans, they certainly didn't follow them! The 'high-grade wood' includes western red cedar and mahogany, which are great for full-sized projects but not good modeling woods. When they say 'plank on frame' it is quite likely they mean 'plank on bulkhead'. That might sound like hair-splitting to the uninitiated, but they're actually two very different construction methods, entailing significant differences in both cost to produce and value of the finished product. And as for 'highly detailed'? Just look at the incorrect hull shape, cheap metal castings, simplistic window framing, coarse-grained wood, and adhesive name badge. And don't even get us started on the ship's boats hanging from the sides. This model is low-budget in every respect. It is crudely conceived and poorly executed. If the two models we just looked at were cars, the first would be a Ferrari. The second is a Trabant. So, if you have a Mystery Model, take a good, hard look at it. Does it look like a finely crafted miniature ship? Or does it look a bit rough? If it's the latter, then it's most likely not a unique piece of art. If you were hoping to resell it at a premium price, you'll quickly learn that its market value is less than you might have hoped for. Next: It's a real model, but so what?

I somehow missed the conclusion of this build. Congratulations on another very fine model! I will be watching your build of Dreadnought with interest. Cheers!

Like most of us, I have a list of 'dream kits' that includes ships that are probably not all that popular. But I do think that two of the suggestions already put forth have merit. First, I completely agree with the sail-to-steam transition period being both under-represented in the hobby and offering a wealth of attractive potential subjects. Second, I wouldn't mind seeing something like the current Caldercraft Nelson's Navy line, but featuring American sailing men-of-war. Wasp and Peacock have already been mentioned; cobble one of those two together to go along with Syren, add in a gunboat, a schooner, and a frigate not named Constitution, and you'd be off to the races. For the frigate, I'd suggest Chesapeake. Bluejacket currently has a limited run of Kearsarge and Alabama -- how about offering up a twin bill of Chesapeake and HMS Shannon? I think those would be good sellers. No matter what you decide on, Chuck, I know it will be a first-class production.

Okay, let's delve a little further into this subject. Let's examine a few Mystery Models and discuss what makes them something less than what they seem to be. Take a look at Mystery Model #1. This one doesn't need too much explanation. It is obviously a curio -- something a kid would buy at the gift shop at Mystic Seaport. When the child outgrows it, it might end up in a yard sale. But more likely, though, it will just get discarded. But not all cheap models are so overtly cheesy. How about Mystery Model #2? This one looks nice -- from a distance. Once you get up close, you can see that the fittings are not to scale and the workmanship is not great. This is clearly a decor piece. If you have a nautical theme in your office, and you don't want to shell out big bucks for a scale model, you might get something like this at the local home decorating store. You probably won't have much success at selling it to someone else. Mystery Model #3 is something we see a lot of around here. It looks old. It looks antique. It must therefore be valuable, right? Wrong. This is a classic example of an older style of decor model, probably made in Spain. Columbus' ships were especially popular subjects. Some might have a plaque bearing the name "Fregatta" (fregatta is Spanish for 'frigate'). Unfortunately, unlike perhaps a matched pair of Holland & Holland shotguns, these models don't appreciate in value with age. They just get old, like shag carpet and avocado green appliances. Now, to mix things up a bit, let's look at a model that represents a ship still in existence. First we have the model: And now we have the real deal, the bark Star of India, the crown jewel of the San Diego Maritime Museum. At first glance, the model does kind of look like the real ship. But once again, the devil is in the details. Look closely at the real ship. Now look at the model. Notice the difference in the cut of the sails and the way the sails are set on their yards. Notice how fine the rigging looks on the real ship and how chunky it looks on the model. Notice how the model doesn't even have the proper rig (it has square sails on the mizzen mast, the mast at the rear of the ship; the real Star does not). If you could see the model up close, you would see that the lack of fidelity to the original extends to the deck fittings as well. In short, the model is only a crude likeness of the real thing. Now, here's the kicker. At the time of this writing, the Star of India model was available to purchase on the internet for (wait for it) -- $999.99. I kid you not! And, sadly, it's kind of like a new car in the sense that once you drive it off the lot, its value plummets. "But wait," you might say, "I bought this model for $999.99, so it must be worth at least $999.99, right?" Um -- no. In the first place, no one is going to pay $999.99 for your now-second-hand model when there are tons of brand-new ones available on the Internet. Second, I, at least, am certainly not going to pay that much for it, because I know where I can get a brand new model just like it for less than 1/10th of what you paid for yours. Ouch! In the next installment, I'll cue you in on what model ship buyers really want in a model and how much they might be willing to pay for it. Until then!

I'm not at a point in my life where I can commit to a group project, but I would be keenly interested in a C A Thayer build somewhere down the road.

Hi! On a fairly regular basis, we here at MSW receive requests from new members for help with identifying a ship model, such as something like one of these: The request usually looks something like this: Now, we are happy to help you with this request, but since we get asked so often, I thought it would be good to finally put some info on mystery models in one topic thread so that you can maybe find your answer before you post. Here are some basic things you should know: 1. Many, many models have been built over the years for the sole purpose of serving as decor or memorabilia. This would be a model purchased at, say, Sea World or Home Goods. These models are usually built to low standards in parts of the world where labor is relatively cheap. Once upon a time, southern Europe was a hot-spot for their manufacture. Nowadays most such models are coming out of Southeast Asia. These models usually have little, if any, historical or resale value. If you shelled out for one at an auction, you are probably stuck with it. Unfortunately, the vast majority of models we get asked about fall into this category. 2. A similar category of models could be classified as folk art. These are, as the name implies, locally built models that are an artistic representation of a ship rather than a scale model. Like the decor models, these also usually have little value other than sentimental value. 3. Then there are models that are actual attempts at scale model building, either scratch built or from a kit. Maybe your dad or grandpa built one. The value of these varies widely depending on the subject and the quality of the build, but the number of builders whose work is actually worth a large chunk of change is very, very small. The number of prospective buyers for such models is even smaller. 4. It is an extremely rare model that will turn out to have real value, either due to its artistic merit (built by someone who's a recognized master modeler) or historical value (e.g. a genuine prisoner-of-war bone model). Trust me, there are builders who are good (you would probably ooh and aah over their work), and then there are the builders whom those 'good' modelers look up to - the Stradivaris of our art, if you will. Those builders are few and far between, and grandpa probably wasn't one of them. 5. No matter what kind of model you have, the only people who can give you a true estimation of its worth (meaning, what a real person might actually pay) are those who make their living by doing such things, i.e. museum curators or owners of maritime art galleries. What you get from MSW should only be considered an informed opinion. If you do decide to go to a gallery, just let me prepare you well in advance for the shock you will likely experience upon hearing the appraised value of your model. In our hobby, 'valuable' and 'finely crafted' are not necessarily synonymous. Nine times out of ten, mystery models shown at MSW are, sad to say, essentially worthless in terms of monetary value. Some of those models, to be sure, still have sentimental value for their owners, and that is not to be taken lightly. If you have a model like that, then do what you can to preserve it. If, on the other hand, you were hoping you found an overlooked treasure at a boot sale, well, you most likely didn't. Sorry. Cheers!