HMS Victory by gjdale - FINISHED - Mamoli - Scale 1:90

[Moonbug]

Love the sheaves!   I gave it a go with a working sheave, but ended up having to bail on the idea and went with "simulated" because I just couldn't get it to work. Congrats!

 

 

- Bug

Edited January 9, 2014 by Moonbug

[Sjors]

This is high tech building Grant     

You think of something and then do it !

Next project totally scratch ??????

 

[Blue Ensign]

You have been busy Grant, and all to very good effect.

 

M.

[rafine]

You're a better man than I, Grant. Nice work on those sheaves.

 

Bob

[gil middleton]

Grant,  I can't leave your log without missing something. Just had the second cataract done and in those few days, your ship went to sea, brought down the mast in a storm and has undergone a refit. Great recovery by the way. I probably would have taken a month off. And on to new ideas, raising the bar for the rest of us.  Gil

[mtaylor]

Grant, you just continue to amaze me.

[mikec]

Very, very nice Grant. I will do this on my next Victory build (after I have finished my 1st Victory, Endeavour and Syrene) 8-]

[gjdale]

Thank you one and all for the various kind comments and the "likes".  I appreciate each and every one of them.

 

So, you know how I said "now I'm ready to continue re-installing the yards"?  Hmmmmm.......... might have been a bit pre-emptive with that.  Four words:  Shroud Trucks, Shroud Cleats.

 

More on that in a moment.  First of all, the Kevel Blocks are now completed and ready for installation:

 

 

Note the brass pin to be used for insertion into the deck.  These will be glued in with epoxy.  I'm quite please with the way these turned out.

 

So, I was just going back over Gil Middleton's log to see if there was anything else I'd missed and to steal shamelessly any good ideas he had while I was at it.  There I came across the Shroud Trucks - conveniently omitted by my kit.  Longridge is very scant on discussion of these, giving a sketch diagram with no dimensions, and saying only (pg 215) that "... Trucks are small short cylinders of wood with a hole bored through the long axis, and a score on the outside also on the long axis. They are lashed to the shrouds and various lines are led through them."  He doesn't even say which lines.  So I've had a bit of a conversation with Gil via PM and he advised that the Jotika instructions say to pass the Topmast Tyes through the shroud trucks on all three masts, though he opted to do so only on the main and fore masts.  Gil's method of making trucks is posted on his log (pg 7, post #100 if you'd like to check it out).  He used styrene tubing and presents a nice diagram of how he approached it.  Having thought about it, I decided to have a crack at making them from wood.

 

Using Gil's styrene O.D. as a guide,  I started with some 3mm diameter dowel and cut them into roughly 20 mm lengths.  The final length of each truck was to be 4 - 5mm, but working with a slightly longer piece to start with makes life much easier.

 

 

Then, using a micro chisel with a round end, I cut the score on the outside of the long axis (this is where it will sit against the shroud, so the shroud will seat into the truck).

 

 

Here's another view after the chisel work:

 

 

I then bored a 0.8mm hole using the Proxxon Drill Press (did I mention I really like this little tool )

 

 

Then I cut the 20mm length into four roughly equal segments, and chamfered the ends with a light touch of a file:

 

 

These are to be stained dark brown, so to make that process easier, I gave each one a "handle" of copper wire with a couple of twists to stop it from falling off.  The idea is to "dunk" the truck into the stain like a tea bag.

 

 

After dunking, the trucks on their handles are returned to the polystyrene block to dry.

 

 

Again, I'm quite happy with the way these turned out.  I'm still not sure how many I need.  Although Jotika say to only pass the topmast tyes through these, it would make sense to me that any line that is tied off to a shroud cleat would first pass through a truck.  Going from Longridge's belaying plan, that means I would need a total of 24 tucks.  I've no reference for that, so any and all opinions on the subject are most welcome.

 

Next up - Shroud Cleats.

 

 

 

[gjdale]

Okay, now the not so good news - Shroud Cleats.

 

Again, something I picked up reading through Gil's log, and again conveniently neglected in my kit.  Longridge is again scanty on information, once again giving a sketch diagram with no dimensions and stating simply (pg 215) that: "Shroud Cleats have two arms, or horns, like an ordinary belaying cleat and the base is grooved to fit onto the shroud; scores are cut on the base for the seizings which lash it to the shroud. They are made in several different sizes from 18 inches to 8 inches and are attached to the inner side of the fore and mizzen shrouds."

 

Another PM conversation with Gil, in which Gil advised me that, not being satisfied with the Jotika supplied cleats he used ones from the ME Constitution kit and modified them slightly to suit his eye.  Unfortunately, that meant I couldn't simply copy his method. 

 

Having thought about if for a day or so, I came up with a cunning plan......or so I thought.....

 

I found in my Warrior Practicum (Romero) the pattern for shroud cleats for the Warrior, in 1:64 scale.  "Beaut!" says I - all I need to do is to scale those down to 1:90 scale and I've got a useable pattern.  So off I go.  

 

Now, I recall reading in Robert's HMS Mars log recently, how he'd made these beautiful gun carriages but hadn't made a prototype before going into mass production, with the result that the end product didn't fit the guns at the right height, thereby entailing a significant amount of rework.  I should have listened.......but we'll get to that!     

 

So here's my starting pattern, neatly scaled down to 1:90.

 

 

Thinking "mass production", the plan was to cut strips of stock and glue them up in gangs prior to cutting/shaping.  So, into the stash of lovely Hobbymill Boxwood - using 3/64"thick sheet stock to roughly match the diameter of the shrouds.

 

 

And cut into 1/4" wide strips, approximately 4 1/2" long on the Brynes Saw:

 

 

Then spot glue gangs of five strips using the smallest amount of glue possible to facilitate easier separation later:

 

 

And clamped and left to dry overnight:

 

 

The pattern was then cut into strips, with each pattern strip carrying six cleat patterns, and attached to the glued up gangs:

 

 

After trimming up to the "flat" edge of the pattern on the Brynes Disc Sander, the "curved" edge was achieved using the newest acquisition - the Oscillating Spindle Sander.  This step could have been done with a Dremel and sanding drum, or even by hand with a half round file.  But I do like my toys, and this one is ripper!

 

 

The final cutting shaping was done with the scroll saw, and the pieces then given a bath in isopropyl alcohol to debond the glue and separate them.  Here is the final (unsatisfactory) result      :

 

 

Apart from some dodgy cutting by the scroll saw operator (stop his rum ration for a week), the overall method worked very well.  What I'm really not happy with is the overall size/proportions - they look far too long and flimsy; grossly out of proportion for the ship.  I went back and checked the Warrior Practicum, and relatively speaking, they are the same proportion (a photo in that book shows the cleats spanning three ratlines - it just doesn't look right).     

 

So, back to the drawing board.     

 

I went back over some photos that dear Sjors and Anja had sent me some time ago and I found these two photos that show a little of the real thing:

 

 

 

From what I can make out from these, the overall length of the cleats seems to be just a little longer than the diameter of the deadeye on that shroud.  Given that my deadeyes on the Foremast shrouds are 5mm, an overall length of about 6mm would seem about right - that's about half the length of my failed attempt.  The length also appears to divided into roughly three equal segments - one third each for the arms (or horns), and one third for the middle section. The overall front to rear "depth" dimension is difficult to tell from the photos, but I'd guess that it is about one half the length, which would make it 3mm for me (again, half the size of my fist batch).  The thickness would stay the same, as that matches the shroud diameter.

 

With those reduced dimensions, my sense is that the cleat would not look (or be) nearly as flimsy, and would look about right in terms of overall size compared to other aspects of the model (e.g. the deadeyes).

 

Again I have no other reference than some guesswork based on Sjors's photos.  Even Lees does not give any further direction on dimensions.  So, once again, any and all opinions on the overall dimensions and ratios as I've described them here would be most welcome.

 

Oh, and I'll make a cardboard prototype this time around!       

Edited January 11, 2014 by gjdale

[Blue Ensign]

I'll have a look thro' my photo collection Grant, and see if I have any shroud cleat photos whch may help to assist with scale adjustment for your Victory

 

Cheers,

 

M

[gjdale]

Thanks B.E. - much appreciated.

[mobbsie]

Hi Grant,

 

This may be no use to at all as it's for the Agamemnon but it may also help a little.

 

Were talking Trucks here and I will let you have it as per my instruction book.

 

Halyards:-  Fore, Main and Mizzen.

 

A truck is to be tied to the aftermost Topmast Standing Backstays for the Topsail tyes to thread through.

 

Paint black and tie the trucks to both sides of the Fore and Main Backstays and only Starboard side Backstays on the Mizzen.

 

If no sails are to be rigged the trucks are to be tied about 10mm under the Lower Tops and a 5mm single block rigged to the end of the tye about 15mm down from the trucks.

 

I have a couple of pics that may help

 

Be Good

 

mobbsie

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Grant, this is what I have:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope these help

 

Like your method of construction, will bear that in mind for Pegasus.

 

M.

[gjdale]

Thanks Mobbsie - that's great. Sounds like Jotika/Caldercraft have used the same approach for Aggy as for their Victory. The pictures are a big help in terms of placement.

 

Did they provide you with Shroud Cleats for Aggy?

[gjdale]

Thanks Lawrence - most kind of you to say so.

 

Thanks B.E. for the extra photos. As far as I can tell they would seem to support my hypothesis on size and ratios.

[mobbsie]

Yes they did, 40 of them, the moulding is absolutely rubbish and a lot of work is needed to make them right. 

 

Here are some pics mate, I hope they are clear enough for you to see the sizes

 

Be Good

 

mobbsie

[texxn5]

Hi Grant, the appearance in the pictures seem to support your size.  Since the bottoms of the cleats seem to be lashed over, the lengths of the top seem to be less "prominent" .......just an inexperienced eye chiming in.....

[gjdale]

Thanks for the pictures of the cleats Mobbsie - looks like those measurements also support my hypothesis.

 

Thanks John for your observation too.

[Moonbug]

Watching all of this between you and mobbsie and Lawrence makes me want to hurry up and finish my Santa Maria so I can build another 18th century vessel!

 

-Bug

[mtaylor]

Grant,

Any chance the cleats you made can be modified given the latest information?

[gjdale]

Thanks Bug - no need to rush! You're doing a fantastic job on your Santa Maria - just enjoy that for now. The 18th Century vessels will still be waiting for you when you're ready.

 

Mark - I did consider that, and even tested a couple, but wasn't satisfied with result. I'll have another crack in a couple of days. Seconded to domestic duties today and back to work tomorrow

[Sjors]

Hi Grant,

 

I think you can re-titled the build in bashed   

Amazing what you are doing !

And it looks so real !

When you go on at this way it takes you another 10 years to finish her   

 

 

[gjdale]

I hope not Sjors!!! I would like to be completely finished by Easter this year. That will depend on how crazy work gets in the next few months, and how many other little "surprises" I find as I complete the rigging.

[gjdale]

Hi Lawrence,

 

Thanks for your kind comments. Sjors was referring to "another" 10 years from now. This build has now been underway for coming up 18 years (on and off), so yes, I'm keen to get finished and start something fresh.

 

But there is no point in rushing - it will be finished when it's finished to my satisfaction. Only problem is, the longer I hang around MSW, the higher the standard for satisfaction becomes!!!

 

In the meantime, I've found that Cornwall Model Boats, in the UK, stock some Amati 5mm Anvil Cleats (in metal) that look like they will do the job nicely if I can't manage to make something sufficiently usable from timber. So we have a back-up plan!

[texxn5]

Good to see you have a satisfactory backup plan......should have known...looks good my friend.

[clloyd]

Grant,

When I made shroud cleats for bounty I had a similar mass production idea, but came at it from a different direction.

 

I crosscut a piece of timber from a blank.  Thickness = depth of cleat, width = length of cleat.  I then shaped that - a concave depression on the top, a cut on each side to make the profile so I could then just slice off individial cleats, tidy up with a file and install.

 

I don't have pics anymore, so I hope that made some sort of sense - give you another option for how to make them.

 

Colin

[gjdale]

Thanks Colin,

 

I like that approach too. Need to see if I've got some stock of the right size to try that. Definitely worth a go.

[mobbsie]

I'm sure you'll be able to sort something out with all the toys at your disposal my friend ( very green eyed )

 

Good idea to have a backup plan but I feel confident you wont need it.

 

Bummer about having to go back to work mate, but hey,   just think,    you could be like me mate  RETIRED.

 

Be Good

 

mobbsie

[gjdale]

Okay, been thinking about Shroud Cleats for a couple of days and decided that the method described above by Colin was probably the most likely to achieve success (thanks Colin )

 

First up, I needed to draw something up with dimensions so that I had a clear picture of what I was trying to achieve, so I knocked up a quick diagram in TurboCAD and was fairly satisfied with the overall size, proportions and shape of this:

 

 

This cleat pattern is 5mm "wide" by 3mm "tall".  I had intended to use this as a pattern, glued to the wood to aid cutting, but in the end didn't use it as such.  The important thing was the dimensions, which determined the cutting process.

 

The next important consideration was getting the grain direction correct on the finished piece to maximise strength and minimise potential for breakage.  For some reason this messed with my head for a while, but I eventually worked it out.  Taking a piece of Boxwood sheet 3mm thick and about two inches wide, I cut 5mm wide strips across the grain.  This means that in the finished product, the grain will run along the length of the cleat.

 

Then having worked out that I wanted the "feet" of the cleats to have a 1mm thickness for securing to the shrouds, I cut a dado using a 0.020" kerf blade in the Brynes saw, 1.67mm deep on both sides of the strip.  These dimensions were important to achieving the final shape.

 

 

 

You can see in the above pics that the stock on one side of the cut is thicker than the other side.

 

The next step was to creat the "anvil" shaped horns for the top of the cleat.  This was done using some curved riffler files, with the stock held in a small vice.

 

 

In the next photo, one side of the anvil has been shaped:

 

 

The stock was then returned to the Brynes saw and a very shallow "kissing" cut was made along the centre of the top side.  This was used as a guide for a round file to then shape the curve across the top of the anvil, and leaving a very shallow recess to assist in securing the cleat to the shrouds.  In the next pic you can see the final shape, with the curve and recess visible.

 

 

The last step was to return once more to the Byrnes saw and slice off individual cleats 1mm thick.  The hardest part of this process was catching the little buggers as they flew off the saw!     

 

Here's the yield from one piece of stock originally measuring 5mm x 3mm x about 2 inches (about 30 cleats all up, a few of which will be further modified to make mast cleats):

 

 

 

And here they are, stained black and ready for installation.

 

 

They still look a little "chunky", but I think I'm happy with them - they seem to be no worse than the metal versions available, at any rate.

 

Now I just have to attach them to the shrouds.      

Edited April 4, 2014 by gjdale

[Moonbug]

Nice assembly line technique!

 

-Bug