HMS Tiger 1747 by Siggi52 - 1:48 - 60 gun ship from NMM plans

[mtaylor]

Interesting that there's no handrails on the ladders or around the opening.    I'm surprised that there wouldn't at least have been rope ones in stanchions.  

[druxey]

Perhaps a safety-conscious captain might have ordered them rigged with rope 'rails'. Also, the risk of falling down the hatchway was marginally less dangerous than losing your grip on the topsail yard....

[Siggi52]

Hello,

today I looked also through all the pictures in the gallery for historical models, no handrails. What druxey at the end said is may be right. All ladder ways are behind, or in front of capstans. So nobody would stumble into them as an accident.  And also at night it would't be absolutely dark, somewhere is always a moon, star or lantern, so they did't need these handrails really. Also at these small ways, left and right over the waist, no rails. Only the Royal William from 1719, SLR0222, had there rails. 

 

The only handrail I found, except those for the officers, was at the Mod. No 34 Vol II, of the Rogers collection, and there from the gun deck down to the orlop deck. Between the capstan and mizzen mast. But with these models I'm not sure if there is all really historical correct. 

 

That would be the next question, should I left these rails I had build at the gun deck? It is not too late to plug them out.

 

Question over question. I think I did't build them at the upper gun deck, but leave them at the gun deck. At many models they did't even build the ladders, there is only the row of gratings. So would it look, when the capstan is in use. 

[druxey]

The only 'safety factor' at night is that the coamings are painted black to contrast with the surrounding deck.

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, Siggi52 said:

And also at night it would't be absolutely dark, somewhere is always a moon, star or lantern, so they did't need these handrails really

Siggi, that's true during calm weather but what about those times at night in heavy weather when it's as black as the ace of spades and footing is/was even more treacherous? 

[Siggi52]

Druxey, there you are right, and also that the coamings are a little higher then the deck is. That, and that the sailors know there ship. They worked there day and night and then, Keith, I think they find there way. And at the deck below is at least a lantern shining. I don't think that at the gun or orlop deck is absolutely darkness at night. Such a ship never sleeps.

 

But the question is, did they have hand rails, or not? If yes I think, at one or the other model you would see them. I did't find any.

 

 

 

 

[mtaylor]

What Keith asked I'm curious about and also is it possible that they only rigged rails/ropes around hatchways and other areas as needed in foul weather?  

[Jaager]

Another reason for the absence of rails could be that if temporary or situational the addition on a model would not serve much purpose. 

If the intended audience was fellow navy they would know already and rails would be fragile clutter on a model.

[Siggi52]

Good morning,

Mark, I think, in bad weather they put the grating in and sealed all with a tarp. Then is only the back ladder way open and there is may be also a lantern.

Jaager, may be you are right. My first thought on this was, when they rigged up the capstan with bars, as at most early models, they closed the ladder way and removed the rails. Ok, mostly the ladder way are open and also when the capstan is't rigged, I did't find any rails. And as Druxey mentioned, there are more dangerous things at a ship, then the ladder ways.

 

The rails are nowhere mentioned. In my Falconer 1769 edition only for the officers stairs. And also at the models, where there is no extra ladder way for the officers to the quarter deck there the two ladders at the sides have rails! 

 

For the gangway over the waist Falconer mentioned: „It is fenced on the outside by several small iron pillars, and a rope extended from one to the other, and sometimes with a netting, to prevent any one from falling off into the sea“ And also for the gangway at the ships side he mentioned rails, but not for the ladder ways. And again, these gangway are for the officers! All others have to climb over the railing.

 

Before we find nothing written down, or a model with these rails, all others is speculation. But it is not too late, before I'm not installing the quarter deck, I could install these rails.

[Siggi52]

Hello,

the first planks are laid 

[albert]

Very very nice model.

[Siggi52]

Thank you Albert, and also all others for your likes

And another small update. The planks between the binding starkes are installed

[Siggi52]

Ha,

I just realised that I forgot the the openings for the fore and mizzen mast 😐 That means, extra work for tomorrow 

[Wintergreen]

oops. A rare mistake. 

Glad to note that you are human 😉 

Makes my life easier 😄 

 

Chüss!

[Siggi52]

Hello,

it is repaired, and I have again a three masted ship. Today I started also with planking the sides.

[Jaager]

Siggi,

 

Recently here, I think it was pointed out that mast wedges were only used on one deck.  If true, I would think that the highest deck exposed to weather would be where they were placed.

It may serve us to have a definitive ruling on this point.

 

[Siggi52]

Hello Jaager,

 

19 hours ago, Jaager said:

Recently here, I think it was pointed out that mast wedges were only used on one deck.  If true,

 

I would say, you find out how it really was and tell me then where and what you have found. I have to plank a deck, so it is not so easy.

[Jaager]

This is a rather mundane topic and would take luck to find in the original literature. So I cut to the chase and went to our version of Grey's Anatomy = Boudriot's 74 gun Ship -  The evidence there shows mast wedges for the foremast and mainmast on the main gundeck.  The wedges for the mizzenmast are one deck higher.  I probably should spring for the English editions now so that it is not pictures only for me.

I did not see anything in Winfield 50 Gun ,  Goodwin describes the corner chocks and wedges, but does not say how many decks had wedges.

In an actual ship, it would be an interesting exercise of Physics to imagine what are the effects of one pivot point versus two or three.

 

It is probably too esoteric to matter which you choose - every deck or just one for wedges.   You have dug so deeply on other details, I was in effect asking if you had any data on this.  The model masts are not going to be sprung in a storm.

 

[Siggi52]

Hello Jaager,

thank you for your efforts. In my english version of Boudriot's 74 gunner it is the same as you described. But at least this ship is French and too late. 

 

Gary shipwright once wrote, that at the plans he had, the strong partners for the main mast are at the gun deck, for the fore mast at the upper gun deck and for the mizzen there are only holes in the deck.

 

I had a look at the planes I have from the Dorsetshire, 1757. There are strong partners drawn for the main and fore mast at the gun deck. At the upper gun deck there are partners drawn for the mizzen and main mast and at the Castel partners for the fore mast. At least would have all masts wedges at the most upper decks for there rain tarps. 

 

Most of the wedges I build you would't see later, and I think, that at least at every deck the masts have wedges. May be not so strong one. But some how they have to close the gap between the deck and mast.

[Jaager]

Siggi,

Goodwin describes a canvas "boot"  with a secure rope binding at the top and a on-off rope binding at the deck level. It was tar coated. 

The bottom was removable for inspection - especially after a storm.  These would likely be at every deck that is subject to flooding.  I can't see how the bottom could be tied down unless some sort of wedge - even if loose - was in place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Siggi52]

Jaager, have a look at my main mast, some posts earlier. Yes that where some special wedges. I have that book too.

[Keith Black]

If a mast is wedged on more than one deck, how would adjusting mast rake be accomplished? 

[Siggi52]

Keith, I don't know. Rigging is't my world. But I think that they adjust the mast with the fore and back stays, and then secure them with the wedges. 

[Keith Black]

 Siggi, I know adjustment was done with the fore and back stays but I'd never considered how the mast wedges might come into play during rake adjustment. 

[Siggi52]

Hello, 

today we finished planking of the upper gun deck, the man from the admiralty was very impressed and spend a brandy. We did't tell him, that we mostly forgot the mast holes. 🤫

Tomorrow the painter will oil the deck and when it is dry, the carpenters start with the deck clamps for the quarter deck and forecastle.

 

 

 

 

[Siggi52]

Hello, and thank you all for your likes

the oil at the deck did't dry really fast, so I had the opportunity to enjoy the beautiful weather we had the last days. That where the most sunny days since October. Some days before I installed the deck clamps for the fore castle and quarter deck. Today I made then the quickwork at the starboard side

 

 

[albert]

Great beautiful work. 

[Siggi52]

Hello,

thank you Albert and also all the others who give me there likes.

Today the painter finished the port side and the carpenters working at the starboard side.

 

 

[Mark P]

Lovely work Siggi;

 

A pleasure to watch her taking shape.

 

Concerning the mast wedges, there is an interesting passage in a book about the Dutch Wars in the 17th century:

 

The Navy Records Society published a book about the Wars, and it includes the following memoir of a sailor. He was part of a group of men who had recaptured a former English ship, which had been taken by the Dutch some time previously. As they sailed the ship out of harbour, they came across a Dutch ship, which realising that they were English, turned to escape, and gradually got further and further away. The English commander asked if any of the crew had served on the English ship before she was captured, and when one man said that he had, the commander asked him what was the ship's best point of sailing. The sailor's answer was that they should alter the rake of the masts by slackening the backstays and having done this, they gradually overhauled and captured the Dutch ship. 

 

So small differences in mast rake could make a difference in the sailing qualities of a ship.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P 

[Siggi52]

Thank you for the information Mark. 

These 60 gunners after the 1745 establishment list where also poor sailers. So they added 3 1/2 feet to the establishment length for future ships. But when I remember well, that was't enough. 

If someone is interested in the history of the Tiger: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=262  There are also descriptions of the battles they fought in India.