F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" by Egilman - Minicraft/Hasegawa - 1/32nd Scale

[Old Collingwood]

If you can   - do the wings first  in the paint finish you want  - then  concentrate on your magic on the fuselage  after,   will be easier to mask the wings  to  then do your  metal work  than the other way round  - just my  10 pence worth.

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

Better then to mask off the (Painted wings)  and not have to mask the polished fuse.

 

OC.

[Egilman]

38 minutes ago, CDW said:

Wow, that's a bum deal after all that work. It's hard for me to tell from the photo how much of the finish was pulled off. All the way down to the primer?

Hope you can recover the finish.

By the way, the walk-around video is super good. Well worth watching.

Well, it's why we do these type of things, try out other products.. I think we now know why this hasn't been used for BMF's on models. (at least not that I can find)

 

The finish is toast and has to come off... The tape peeled it right down to the gloss sealed black paint... Which means that the only thing keeping this on the model is surface cohesion. The powder doesn't really stick to anything like paint does.....

 

But I believe I know how it gets it's surface shine now not that it matters any... and why it turns dark when you try to seal it. It's never going to work for a BMF on a model.... not possible...

 

As far as removing the finish, IPA takes it off, right down to the sealed black paint... might take a little light scrubbing, but other than the mess no sweat.... I may do a little more testing with these powders to find if there is a modeling product that will seal it without lifting it... That's why it turns dark when you seal it, the sealer lifts the powder off the surface because it is breaking the surface cohesion and suspending the powder in the sealer so it turns the original color of the powder... Dark dark grey..... but is still glossy from the sealer itself and retains some of it's shine.

 

I don't suspect that there is a solution....

 

Yeah I've been saving that walkaround for a while since it is an early "C" model it's exactly what I'm representing... and the experienced pilot commentary is wonderful also...

 

Anyway, figuring what the next course of action is here so it will be a bit before another update... I'm not giving up on her, just having a setback...

 

EG

[cog]

If you mask on "powdered" layers, and after putting decals on, first cover with clear varnish

[Jack12477]

If you can find a pair of lint free white cotton gloves like they used back in the days of film photography, they well prevent the finger oils from marring the finish. Not sure if nitrile gloves would work. 

 

Nice finish on those outdoor photos.

[Canute]

Alclad makes lacquer based metallic paints in several different shades, but it's sprayed on.

 

AK interactive also has a line, Xtreme metal paint, but it also is an airbrush product. I read their how to Here: http://www.ak-masters.com/ak/NEWSMARCH2015/XTREME_METAL.pdf

It supports polishing and masking with good results, but it's a spray.

[CDW]

It just dawned on me that the finish you are working with is Uschi polishing powder.

A couple of years ago, there was another modeler on this forum who wrote a brief post on how he used the powders to achieve a brilliant finish on a model. I have not seen a post from this modeler in quite some time and I cannot recall his screen name to do a search. I recall that he was a WW1 Fokker D.VII fan and his screen name may have been Vossie Wolf, or something close to that. Maybe some of the guys reading this will remember who I am talking about. Anyway, if i remember correctly, he had unlocked the secrets for getting the most out of Uschi powders.

[Egilman]

9 hours ago, Old Collingwood said:

If you can   - do the wings first  in the paint finish you want  - then  concentrate on your magic on the fuselage  after,   will be easier to mask the wings  to  then do your  metal work  than the other way round  - just my  10 pence worth.

 

OC.

 

9 hours ago, Old Collingwood said:

Better then to mask off the (Painted wings)  and not have to mask the polished fuse.

 

OC.

Hey brother Thank you, it isn't going to work unfortunately, you still have decals to put on the aluminum surface and any liquid you put on it including water is going to move the buffed on metal..... This is why even lightly brushing it with perfectly clean hands leaves finger oil marks..... You can't put anything over it...

 

So the truth is it doesn't matter what is done first, you cannot preserve the metal finish using Uschi's metal powders....... I"m sure they have their uses for fine detail work, but for an overall finish they are out...

 

And that is sad, cause they do such a beautiful, accurate metal finish....

 

EG

[CDW]

It will take some time (1 hour) to watch these 2 videos, but this modeler gives as good a tutorial on achieving a NMF as there is out there on the net. Very, very good.

 

 

 

[Egilman]

3 hours ago, cog said:

If you mask on "powdered" layers, and after putting decals on, first cover with clear varnish

Except the varnish lifts the powder off the surface thereby darkening the varnish to a darker grey.... I"ve yet to find a liquid sealer that doesn't to this....

 

It's the ticket for accurate BMF, IF you can find a sealer that works...

[Egilman]

3 hours ago, Jack12477 said:

If you can find a pair of lint free white cotton gloves like they used back in the days of film photography, they well prevent the finger oils from marring the finish. Not sure if nitrile gloves would work. 

 

Nice finish on those outdoor photos.

Yeah I was thinking about that as well. But the problem is the powders are not fixed to the surface, they just lay on top of it... Surface cohesion is the term for it nothing "attaches" the powder to the finish. touch it and it comes off for the same reason liquids lift, discolor and move it.... It would keep the hand oils off the surface though and the damage would be reduced, but it would still be there slowly ruining the finish....

 

And then you still have to decal over it.... more liquids....

[Egilman]

2 hours ago, Canute said:

Alclad makes lacquer based metallic paints in several different shades, but it's sprayed on.

 

AK interactive also has a line, Xtreme metal paint, but it also is an airbrush product. I read their how to Here: http://www.ak-masters.com/ak/NEWSMARCH2015/XTREME_METAL.pdf

It supports polishing and masking with good results, but it's a spray.

I researched Alclad before I started this and the issues with it I decided I didn't want to go in that direction. Besides it requires an airbrush which I don't have, the powders gave hope for not needing one... The same thing with AK Interactive paints.... I"m currently looking for some old stocks of Testors buffing metalizer lacquers... I wanted to stay away from lacquers if I could but it looks like that isn't going to be possible.... If I can find some, several came in spray can which would probably be a stronger finish with some surface bite.......

[Egilman]

1 hour ago, CDW said:

It just dawned on me that the finish you are working with is Uschi polishing powder.

A couple of years ago, there was another modeler on this forum who wrote a brief post on how he used the powders to achieve a brilliant finish on a model. I have not seen a post from this modeler in quite some time and I cannot recall his screen name to do a search. I recall that he was a WW1 Fokker D.VII fan and his screen name may have been Vossie Wolf, or something close to that. Maybe some of the guys reading this will remember who I am talking about. Anyway, if i remember correctly, he had unlocked the secrets for getting the most out of Uschi powders.

Yeah I looked him up, he mentions it a few times, but offers no real definitive examples of uses or applications.....  he still posts occasionally but the last was about a year ago....

[Egilman]

56 minutes ago, CDW said:

It will take some time (1 hour) to watch these 2 videos, but this modeler gives as good a tutorial on achieving a NMF as there is out there on the net. Very, very good.

Thank you Craig, but I've seen them.

 

I know everyone likes the presentation and he's not using the alclad base black lacquer that everyone seems to have problem with from time to time. That being said, what he does is nice, but it's also not what my minds eye says is a bare metal aluminium finish....

 

A preference thing I know, and his presentation is kinda nice, but you have to use an airbrush... which was a point of what I'm trying to accomplish, doing an accurate BMF without one......

 

My head is running towards the old standby of Testors buffing aluminium plate in rattle can if I can find some....

 

Thank you very very much for the search effort.......

[CDW]

7 minutes ago, Egilman said:

I researched Alclad before I started this and the issues with it I decided I didn't want to go in that direction. Besides it requires an airbrush which I don't have, the powders gave hope for not needing one... The same thing with AK Interactive paints.... I"m currently looking for some old stocks of Testors buffing metalizer lacquers... I wanted to stay away from lacquers if I could but it looks like that isn't going to be possible.... If I can find some, several came in spray can which would probably be a stronger finish with some surface bite.......

Metalizer is not going to work with a brush, they require an airbrush. And they suffer from a problem similar to what you are having with the polishing powder, they rub off when touching. Terrible for masking as it lifts off the metal powder marring the finish. Sealer coats alter the polished look of the bare metalizer. Been there, done that, and got the tee shirt.

They do work well on small parts that will not be handled later, but as a primary finish, I think you will be disappointed.

[Egilman]

1 minute ago, CDW said:

Metalizer is not going to work with a brush, they require an airbrush.

They did make a selection in rattle can, four of the 16 different colors i believe, There were also non-buffable, brushable lacquer versions and there is a technique for using the airbrush versions them with a brush.....  I just have to remember what it was... And hope I can find someone with an old stash willing to part with a few...

 

Testors metalizers have been out there for 25+ years, it was the announcement some 15 years ago of them being discontinued that caused these other companies to jump into the market......

 

I know the airbrush versions don't adhere very well also... It was one of their failings that a lot of modelers complained about... and like all other powder based spray on finishes they darken when sealed.....

Testors metalizers I'm familiar with.... They don't give as good a surface representation as the Uschi powders though, that was the biggest draw to the powders, the accurate polished finish they give...

 

Shame they can't be sealed... (or I haven't discovered the right technique yet)

 

Thanks.... still looking...

[Egilman]

Just a humorous note...

 

I searched "Sealing "Uschi's" metal powders" in Google, and this thread came up as the #3 result!!!

 

People try for years to get on the front page of a google search, we made it without even trying.... {chuckle}

[cog]

Mr Paint has a two component lacquer which might do the trick ... but that will be testing yet again

[Egilman]

On 6/27/2020 at 2:14 PM, cog said:

Mr Paint has a two component lacquer which might do the trick ... but that will be testing yet again

Yeah, and a decent airbrush..... (chuckle)

 

Actually I"m in the middle of stripping all the old metal and varnish finish off down to the gloss black paint.......

So much for the indestructible artists varnish... IPA takes it right off........ Probably have to throw a coat of primer on it again....

 

Still working on/researching a solution for the BMF....  so far, without an airbrush there is only one product in the spray realm..... Testors Plate Aluminum Buffing Metalizer..... There is another way, Bare Metal Foil.... but that has it's own issues to deal with I've been told a similar method is spray glue and kitchen aluminum foil will do the job also.... I've talked to two modelers who have won contests with BMF finished airplanes and they say Testors is their go to for BMF finishes on airplanes. But there is a caveat, you HAVE to wait for them to fully cure... 18-24 hours after spraying before you buff them out. if you try to buff them out before that, they will come off on your fingers..... So once I get this clean, we are going to try again....

 

They agreed, Uschi's metal powders are great at creating polished metal finishes, but you can only use them for small parts or parts that aren't going to be handled and not for overall final finishes.... in fact none of the burnishing metal powders are.....

 

Anyway, onwards... I will get this done... one way or the other...

 

EG

[Edwardkenway]

I feel for you having to basically go back to the start, I've done it with work and it can be demoralizing,  but sometimes it is the best solution. Keep on keeping the faith and it'll come good, with your skill and determination!

[Egilman]

Thanks Ed, but in the lessons learned and re-learned department, it is best to ask first before you spent hours and hours beating you head against the wall..... I thought I learned that one years before...... I guess not....

But I only have myself to thank for all this work I now have to do.... But that is part of the adventure of modeling....

 

Anyway, I needed to paint the wings first and get some gloves for handling it so it all for the best.... a change in approach....

 

I located a couple of cans of aluminium plate and they are on the way... They also reminded me of the process for brush painting the testors metalizers so I went ahead and bought some Stainless steel and Titanium for doing the aft fuselage panels that need it.... I'll probably be happier in the long run with it this way......

 

No point in being demoralized, if this is the worst thing that happens I'm doing good...... Just a slight detour on the journey to finishing my first BMF airplane....

 

Onward.....

[Old Collingwood]

As long as you have a plan - thats all that matters   - you will do it.

 

OC.

[cog]

Right, I forgot: No airbrush!

 

I used Ak xtreme metals with a brush ... you just have to shake the bottle frequently ...

[CDW]

Another "air brush free" consideration would be bare metal foil for the finish. The foil comes in a variety of finishes and are easy to work with, conforming well with the model's contours. Obviously, it can't be done in one continuous long sheet, but broken up into sections/panels. I've even seen great looking aluminum foil (kitchen variety) finishes, but an adhesive must first be applied and that might be a bit of a hassle. 

[CDW]

Is it my imagination, or have all plastic build threads now disappeared from the "Most Recent Posts" section of the MSW main page? 

How are we supposed to follow new build threads with nothing shown in the recent posts notice?

[Jack12477]

55 minutes ago, CDW said:

Is it my imagination, or have all plastic build threads now disappeared from the "Most Recent Posts" section of the MSW main page? 

How are we supposed to follow new build threads with nothing shown in the recent posts notice?

Not your imagination Craig, they did it deliberately because we were pushing the ship builds off the list with our frequent posts. Happened as part of the "mass migration" of the two ship forums into era subforums.  I had to go into all the builds I was following and click FOLLOW. Now I use the "show me all the thing I follow"  search to find us. And for new builds I have to actually open the forum to see what is new. 

 

 

 

 

 

[CDW]

2 hours ago, Jack12477 said:

Not your imagination Craig, they did it deliberately because we were pushing the ship builds off the list with our frequent posts. Happened as part of the "mass migration" of the two ship forums into era subforums.  I had to go into all the builds I was following and click FOLLOW. Now I use the "show me all the thing I follow"  search to find us. And for new builds I have to actually open the forum to see what is new. 

 

 

 

 

 

I always figured it was inevitable this would happen. After all, this is first and foremost a wood ship model forum.

[Egilman]

3 hours ago, CDW said:

Is it my imagination, or have all plastic build threads now disappeared from the "Most Recent Posts" section of the MSW main page? 

How are we supposed to follow new build threads with nothing shown in the recent posts notice?

 

2 hours ago, Jack12477 said:

Not your imagination Craig, they did it deliberately because we were pushing the ship builds off the list with our frequent posts. Happened as part of the "mass migration" of the two ship forums into era subforums.  I had to go into all the builds I was following and click FOLLOW. Now I use the "show me all the thing I follow"  search to find us. And for new builds I have to actually open the forum to see what is new. 

 

I guess we were getting a lot of traffic from the ship builders seeing what was going on here.... And yeah they had to make a distinction.... This is after all the Nautical Research's Guild's forum and Ship modeling is the backbone of that forum.... Not a general modeling site.... So the response is appropriate.....

 

The thing is even if we have to do a bit more legwork, it is still the best modeling forum around IMHO and what we become is that little hidden corner gem of a spot where all are actually welcome... 

 

It's the only modeling forum that actually practices what they preach..... the more we post, the more we will draw others through the search engines it ups their hits and brings people to ship modeling in a way I'm sure they didn't expect. So I can appreciate their need to stay focused on their main mission, but am glad they can see the benefit of keeping this little corner of their world open for us....

 

Best modeling site on the net I say....

 

EG

[Egilman]

6 hours ago, Old Collingwood said:

As long as you have a plan - thats all that matters   - you will do it.

I've always got a plan brother, even if it involves the occasional binning of a disaster.... This is far from the binning stage at this point....

[Egilman]

3 hours ago, CDW said:

Another "air brush free" consideration would be bare metal foil for the finish. The foil comes in a variety of finishes and are easy to work with, conforming well with the model's contours. Obviously, it can't be done in one continuous long sheet, but broken up into sections/panels. I've even seen great looking aluminum foil (kitchen variety) finishes, but an adhesive must first be applied and that might be a bit of a hassle. 

Yep that's my absolute last option fall back position although on a model this size it will be a very expensive thing to do... Bare Metal Foil isn't cheap..... and I'm not in the kitchen foil club, I think it looks completely out of scale.... and has it's own issues as well.... Silver leaf is an option, but there is almost no info in using it to replicate polished metal... (I haven't really done the research into that as it would be even more expensive than the foil)

 

Thanks Craig for trying to help sort this and figuring out the options.... It's much appreciated...