How to stain or dye boxwood?

[tkay11]

I'm making blocks from boxwood (from an old ruler) and would like advice or comments on how to stain them. My attempts in the past have been rather woeful, with poor uptake of stain. I'm reluctant to paint, but want to replicate the dark brown colour of old blocks in the mid-19th Century.

 

Anyone?

 

Tony

[ah100m]

I use the blocks from Syren which are boxwood and have successfully stained them with Minwax stains (dark walnut) or tube oil colors (raw umber or burnt umber) thinned somewhat with turpentine or turpenoid (less smelly).

[tkay11]

Thanks, ah100m, good tip. I was using water-based stains of my own concoction before. Perhaps spirit-based has better infiltration.

 

Tony

[Bossman]

37 minutes ago, ah100m said:

I use the blocks from Syren which are boxwood and have successfully stained them with Minwax stains (dark walnut) or tube oil colors (raw umber or burnt umber) thinned somewhat with turpentine or turpenoid (less smelly).

Ditto to Minwax. 

[Jaager]

It is to scream in frustration!  The use of jargon with this causes confusion about which agents to use.

A stain - the noun - applies to a semi transparent paint. It does not penetrate wood. It sits on the surface.  It is largish pigment particles in a binder.

A dye - is near single molecule pigment.  It actually enters into the wood and becomes part of it. As commonly found, the pigment is either dissolved in water or alcohol.

The water based version penetrates more deeply but also can swell surface wood fibers (raise the grain).

The alcohol based version penetrates not as deep, but does not affect the wood surface.

 

Small boxwood blocks  - depth of penetration is not something that can be seen, so alcohol is probably the more efficient version.

If you buy a small quantity of red and black dye.  An endless variety of shades of brown is possible by adjusting the relative ration of the two solutions.

Even more variety is possible if a brown pigment is in the mix.  In any case, a little black goes a long way.

Test on scrap.  This is both more tricky than is first imagined and messy - gloves - skin will dye too and it takes a few days for dyed cells to be shed.

Once you have the desired shade, the intensity can be less by adding more alcohol.

To finish, use a coat of clear shellac on the dyed blocks.

 

Or you could leap to the final stage by doing what the original Navy Board modelers did.  Use garnet color shellac on the raw boxwood.  First coat, 1/2 strength, second coat full strength.

[Roger Pellett]

The wood that Tony is using is not the same as that sold commercially today.

 
Old wooden drafting tools were manufactured from “real” boxwood.  I’ll leave the scientific nomenclature to others.  This is  light yellowish tan wood, very dense and hard.  When cut with a sharp blade it takes on a polished surface.  This wood is commercially unavailable today.  Since wood stain needs to penetrate the surface, it’s not hard to understand why Tony is having trouble staining it.

 

Today, model builders eager to build “boxwood” models are using Castillo a different species that the trade calls boxwood.  I have no experience using this wood.

 

The typical mass market stains are ground pigments suspended in a liquid, often linseed oil.  These work on open grained woods but do not penetrate hard, dense, tight grained woods.  A better choice would be a dye.  For a recent project, I stained pear wood blocks with dark brown leather dye, obtained from a local shoe maker.  True boxwood might be harder to stain.

 

Roger

[Gregory]

@ jaager

Quote

A stain - the noun - applies to a semi transparent paint. It does not penetrate wood. 

 

 

What about companies such as Minwax, who claim their products " penetrate " ?

Their products are marketed as "stains"..  Same for Varathane and other brands.

 

 

I have used these stains on thin ( 1/32, 1/16 ) sheets, and it shows up on the other side where I did not brush it..

We may be quibbling over the proper definition of the word, which manufacturers are using improperly.

 

Pedantry aside, I think when most members here talk about stains, it is these popular products they are referring to.

 

 

 

I have found that Chuck's blocks don't take a stain very well, depending on the lot.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Gregory

[allanyed]

 

Tony,  Most of us would LOVE to have some true boxwood and use it in its natural color.  Why do you want to color it?     If whatever finish is on the ruler is removed, the wood will be a bit yellowish and may even  have darkened over time.  This is a beautiful wood that the model builders of old used and I do not believe they stained or otherwise colored them. 

 

Further to the above by Jaager and Roger,  

I have had no issues with India ink when dying wales and the adjacent black strake which have been made of Castillo, (calycophyllum multiflorum).  This is of course not as hard as true boxwood (buxus sempervirens,) but pretty close. 

 

Dyes and/or inks may be something for Tony to try on a small test piece to see how well it penetrates.  

 

Allan

[Mike Y]

I did tested a water-based and a spirit-based dye, though on pear instead of boxwood (both have similar texture, pear being much cheaper).

After 10 months of being exposed to an occasional sunlight the spirit based dye turned into a mess.

Before: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/7297-beavers-prize-by-mike-y-148-1777-pof-hahn-style/?do=findComment&comment=455741

 

After: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/7297-beavers-prize-by-mike-y-148-1777-pof-hahn-style/?do=findComment&comment=514733

 

As usual, the finishes popular in US may be hard to find (or expensive) in UK or EU. Your results may vary... I was surprised with such a difference. 

 

I am not the only one, I remember a few logs where people faced a major discoloration and blotches appearing on their dyed wales after a while. 

Of course exposing your model to sunlight is not a smart idea, but if a certain finish tends to fall apart after such test - it would probably do so in a regular indoor environment too, just slower.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Mike Y

[tkay11]

Thanks for the scream, jaager, and for the interesting thoughts about mixing dyes and about shellac. I hadn't thought of those, and I have a good stock of shellac which I make up myself with spirit. I did know about the difference between dyes and stains but my thoughts just made a slip while writing too quickly. So I hope you can forgive my senile moment.

 

Thanks also for mentioning the beautiful old colour of the boxwood, Allan. I too love the colour and would prefer to use it as is. It's just with 2mm blocks and below I find it hard to use pear and the lighter colour of the boxwood looks a bit odd to me when I look at contemporary models. In fact I might continue without trying to alter the colour. I also have a stock of India ink for the wales, but that won't be for the boxwood.

 

Roger: you put the thought of castello into my head. I have a large chunk of that, so I might try making small blocks with that.

 

Gregory: thanks for the experience with Chuck's blocks, as that seems to be good evidence.

 

Mike: thanks for the comparison between water- and spirit-based Liberon. I had tried the spirit-based on some lime and had the same experience. So I'll try water-based in future.

 

Anyway, a very stimulating set of thoughts for me to use as I ponder!

 

Tony

[Jaager]

4 hours ago, Gregory said:

What about companies such as Minwax, who claim their products " penetrate " ?

Based on the necessary mechanisms, to support a claim that their product can penetrate, at least part of the formulation would need to be a dye as well as larger pigment particles that intercalate with a surface polymerized binder.  In theory, it should yield a higher quality result than a semi transparent paint alone.  However, any surface coating of pigment in a binder seems like an insult to high quality wood.  Wait a tick ,,,, given the quality of the wood species provided in most mass market kits, an obscuring surface stain would be an improvement there.  

[allanyed]

11 minutes ago, Jaager said:

Wait a tick ,,,, given the quality of the wood species provided in most mass market kits, an obscuring surface stain would be an improvement there.  

Jaager,  I think you missed a little bit.  Considering the open grained walnut, --in many, not all, kits ---not even an obscuring surface stain will fix that problem.   Any  close grained wood would really be a huge help.   Cost of course is a factor, but there has to be better choices for the same price  or a price that is reasonably close.

Allan

[Jaager]

16 minutes ago, tkay11 said:

So I hope you can forgive my senile moment.

I apologize for any perceived insult.  We have a lot of inexperienced modelers here and I was reflecting back to the time when I zero knowledge and did not know what I did not know.

 

Now, about your possible block species in the UK,  is the wood that makes briar pipes domestic for you?  The sections they discard because it is not burl should work.  Is there not some sort of weed hedge with really hard wood?  Any of it close to you?  Do you have any Dogwood species?  It is really dense wood.

[Roger Pellett]

Consider the customers likely to use hardware store stains like Minwax.  Most woods that they are likely to come into contact with are open grained Woods like softwoods and red oak.  These stains are often used by do it yourselfers trying to make these cheap woods look like something more expensive.  These stains are good enough to satisfy these customers.

 

On the other hand, anyone using stain on a scratch built model is using high end woods; maple, cherry, holly, apple, pear, and yes boxwood, Castillo or the real stuff.  The reason that these woods are used is the same reason that they don’t take the mass market stains.  They are hard and dense with a

tight closed grain structure.
 

If for some reason you want to stain these,  something that will penetrate this tight grain structure is required.  The picture above shows a piece of boxwood stained with Fiebing Dark Brown Leather Dye.

 

Oops, picture showed up in the wrong place!
 

 

 

[Gregory]

2 hours ago, tkay11 said:

Gregory: thanks for the experience with Chuck's blocks, as that seems to be good evidence.

 

I might add that I didn't soak them very long.

I also prefer the darker blocks seen on contemporary models, but that may have more to do with age ( of the model, not me ) than how the block was prepared....

While I am on the subject of age, I will say I don't want to wait 200+ years for my blocks to darken..  20 Will be pushing it..

[tkay11]

Hmmm. More excellent food for thought. Thanks, everyone, for chipping in. After all the comments so far, I will experiment a bit, but may well in the end leave the boxwood as is, especially after seeing Roger's pic of the dyed boxwood.

 

Interesting thought about briar, jaager, I'll have a poke around the web. Of course the lockdown here makes going out and about impossible for the moment. Don't worry about screaming: it's a natural response when something like that is so easily researched on the web. I didn't take offence, especially as you went on to provide very interesting observations as per usual. I took it as more of a groan.

 

As for ageing, Gregory, I've seen the opposite happening to myself -- getting paler the longer the lockdown and these dark winter days. So maybe that proves the point that sunlight does indeed darken.

 

Tony

[Phil Babb]

Hi all,

Interesting reading here, as to staining any wood I would only ever use a spirit stain, in 45 years of cabinet making I have found the few times I have used a water stain, whatever the quality,  it fades.

And yes to one quote, why would you want to colour boxwood, it's such a beautiful timber, I am lucky to have a fair good stock of it, a lot of Russian box that I bought nearly 50 years ago and quiet a section of english box, which is a much lighter colour,both superb to work .

Regards Phil

[DelF]

On 1/25/2021 at 8:35 PM, allanyed said:

Why do you want to color it? 

I agree with Allan. Apart from my current build which includes excellent blocks from Vanguard Models, I make my own  from old boxwood rulers that you can still pick up from ebay for a few pounds. I protect them with pale shellac which darkens the wood very slightly and leaves a lovely finish. Perhaps you could try the natural look first, before experimenting with other finishes?

 

Derek

[tkay11]

Thanks, Derek. I too have a pile of old boxwood rulers I picked up from eBay before they became so expensive (more so than buying from suppliers per cubic meter) and before people started advertising non-boxwood rulers as boxwood (I was stung a couple of times before I noticed). I bought them specifically to build just those small parts and deck fittings that require detail, and planed the sides of their markings. I have already decided to do just what you suggest as I have dry shellac to hand. All the same, I'll also be trying the castello with an eye to the future.

 

Tony

[Keith Black]

 Sorry I'm late but I just got to this stage.

 

 

[rshousha]

Saman; most amazing stuff. A Canadian product. I use it on models, furniture, and a floor I just did. Amazing stuff. 

 

https://saman.ca/en/products/

 

I use their stains and their water-based varnishes in matt and satin. 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by rshousha
more

[Bob Cleek]

On 1/25/2021 at 11:28 AM, Gregory said:

@ jaager

 

 

What about companies such as Minwax, who claim their products " penetrate " ?

Their products are marketed as "stains"..  Same for Varathane and other brands.

 

 

 

 

Minwax does use the term "stain" loosely in their advertising text, but if you read the label carefully, you will note that Minwax doesn't call their above product a "stain." They call it a "Wood Finish." That is, "something other than a stain." They claim it "Penetrates, Stains, and Seals," but they don't claim it is a "stain."

 

Minwax does sell stains per se and calls them that:

 

 

 

[Gregory]

On 1/25/2021 at 3:35 PM, allanyed said:

Tony,  Most of us would LOVE to have some true boxwood and use it in its natural color.  Why do you want to color it?     If whatever finish is on the ruler is removed, the wood will be a bit yellowish and may even  have darkened over time.  This is a beautiful wood that the model builders of old used and I do not believe they stained or otherwise colored them. 

 I have seen many contemporary models where the blocks are approaching black..

 

 

 

 

Then there are these, which I believe may be boxwood, as the color is a lot like very old boxwood  carvings I have seen.  I have seen similar blocks on other contemporary models. 

 

If I could source blocks like this, it would never occur to me to try to stain them, but as I said above, I really don't want to wait 200 years for the color to develop.

 

The boxwood blocks I have acquired from Syren, the quality of which can't be matched from any other source, are too light for my taste.

 

After reading the info in this discussion I have dyed some of my 'Chuck' blocks with some Fiebing's leather dye with results I like.

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Gregory

[Chuck]

Old masters fruitwood gel stain works great for this.   Place a small number of blocks on a paper towel or lint free cloth.  Then dip another cloth in the gel stain.  Simply rub the blocks with it.  Get it well covered.   Wait several minutes and move them to a clean cloth and use another clean cloth to buff them before the gel stain dries.   Dont apply it too heavy or you will clog the holes, especially in the really tiny blocks.   Although they are easy enough to ream later.  Repeat again after it dries thoroughly to go darker.  

 

 

[tkay11]

Thanks, @Chuck. I'll bear that in mind for the future. That stuff is unobtainable in the UK right now, but that may be due to export problems.

 

Tony

[glbarlow]

52 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Old masters fruitwood gel stain works great for this. 

This is good to know, thanks.  I just ordered some for the Winnie resin casts.

[Chuck]

Exactly like the Winnie castings.  I have also used it on some areas of the AYC to more closely match Boxwood.   

 

Chuck

[Chuck Seiler]

1 hour ago, Chuck said:

I have also used it on some areas of the AYC to more closely match Boxwood. 

Once applied and dried, do you finish it with anything?  Tung Oil😛, Wipe on Poly?

[Chuck]

I dont see the need but i imagine you could.  When I use it on AYC i usually apply WOP first.  Like a sanding sealer.  Just a light coat.  Then I use the Gel Stain.  But on boxwood I didnt see the need to do so before or after.

[Chuck Seiler]

Many thanks.

 

Interesting.  I have never applied WOP BEFORE a stain.  I would have thought it blocks absorption.