Need advice about buying a small milling machine (e.g. Proxxon MF70 / Sherline 5400)

[ship69]

Hello 

 

I am new to milling but I am thinking of buying either a:

A. Proxxon MF70 a micro milling machine or

B. Proxxon BFW 40/E "Complete Mill/Drill System" or 

C. Sherline 5400??

D. Taig is probably too heavy
E. [something else]

WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR
- At least 10,000 RPM (so that I can drill/mill mild steel at sub 1mm diametre) 

- Less than say 30Kg ?? (needs to be easy to put away at night. If dead easy to dissemble could be quite a lot heavier)

- Power 150+watts ?
- Low runout (so that fine mills & drills don't snap)

BONUS:  If possible, I am hoping to be able to drill/mill mild steel at as large diameters as possible (e.g. 4 to 6mm?). If accuracy suffers somewhat due to the device flexing at little that wouldn't matter. 
 

TYPIC USES

I will need to cut mild steel & stainless steel quite of then.  e.g. Right now I am needing to cut 1mm thick mild steel plate and then put a 45 degree chamfer on the edge, that must be accurate to c. 1 to 1.5°. 

POSSIBLE PRODUCTS:

A) The Proxxon MF70 (c. £287)
Spindle speed: 5,000 - 20,000 rpm. 
Motor power: 100 watts
Weight: 7Kg

 

It looks like a very interesting machine, although the reviews seem rather mixed. I do not have space for a workshop so all of my equipment will need to be put way overnight, so the MF70 weighing just 7Kg seems brilliant. 
e.g. Some reviewers are complaining about the spindle being noisy and having too much "run out".  I like the idea of being able to upgrade at some point to CNC (not yet though!) Also although very high speed, the motor does seems rather weak at just 100 watts.  My concern is that the whole machine will flex too much, making accurate milling very difficult. 
Does the device adust power to maintain the selected RPM speed?

 

B. Proxxon BFW 40/E "Complete Mill/Drill System" (£586)

The Proxxon BFW 40/E "Complete Mill/Drill System", has a 250 watt motor. It'll do "900 -  6,000 rpm" - although there is no gearing so I am suspicious that the torque will be poor at lower RPM. I think the whole thing weighs in at more like 16Kg, which still sounds easy to put away over night.
The table does look rather small (just 200x200mm). 

Does the device adust power to maintain the selected RPM speed?

 

C. Sherline milling machine e.g. 5410 metric
Power: 1/3hp?? (c.250watts), RPM 70 to 2800 ==> 10,000rpm with pulley kit, 16.3Kg
Somehow they seem much more "grown up" and seem well-reviewed, but they are also quite a lot more expensive!
About £1040 + pulley kit 

D. Taig mills 
up to 10,000 rpm (motor upgrade), but 36Kg seems to too heavy

E. Servo Products - Heavy Duty Drill Press?

200-20,000 RPM, 9.5Kg, c 230 watts? (power used)

Elegant little thing but seems to be more of a high quality Drill Press, except that it looks like Mill Heads are available??
http://www.servoproductsco.com/html/heavy_duty_drill_press.html

 

In truth I don't need super-accuracy, nor the ability to drill/mill with very large diameters but is there anything significantly better-made than the Proxxon MF70, that will do at least 10,000rpm, and not weigh as much as a small battleship? 

 

J

[Bob Cleek]

It's been said that the quality and accuracy of any machine tool is, relative to its capacity, directly proportionate to its weight. 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Jaager]

I checked Little Machine Shop  - the model that is in your zone seems to be a version if a Sieg SX1P or SX1LP

Not low cost or light weight, but it looks to be quality for a hobby machine.   It is probably a good idea to make sure that the decision points that you use be ones that matter.

[noel_colledge]

If you are looking to mill mild and stainless steel I would not suggest the Proxxon MF70. It is a great machine for light work such as wood or brass, but those materials over time will put too much pressure on the bearings. I take it from the currency quoted you are in the UK. I have an Axminster SX2 for larger work and although too heavy for your needs, they do a smaller model the SX1, it is a little lighter than the taig. I am very pleased with the Axminster and have no doubts it's little brother will do the job also.

 

Noel

[ship69]

12 hours ago, Jaager said:

I checked Little Machine Shop  - the model that is in your zone seems to be a version if a Sieg SX1P or SX1LP

Not low cost or light weight, but it looks to be quality for a hobby machine.   It is probably a good idea to make sure that the decision points that you use be ones that matter.

 

Sadly I don't have a permanent space for a workshop, so whatever mill I buy will need to be put away on a shelf overnight.  The SX1P is 48Kg. I'm in reasonable shape but I think that's a lot to ask.

 

[Am I correct in thinking that the Axminster Tools SX1 i really just the same thing as the Seig SX1??]

 

Either way "AXMINSTER MODEL ENGINEER SERIES SX1 MICRO MILL" (c. £610) seems to weighs in at 40Kg, has a rather slow top speed of 2000 rpm, and 150w motor. Presumably the slow top speed will mean not so good drilling/milling with very fine cuts.

What about Proxxon BFW 40/E (900 -  6,000 rpm, c.16Kg, 250watts)? (c. £490)

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by ship69

[ship69]

12 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

It's been said that the quality and accuracy of any machine tool is, relative to its capacity, directly proportionate to its weight. 

 

 

I'm sure that will be true. After all, why else would all these machines weigh so darned much!

What happens if I don't care very much about quality or accuracy? But instead I care about being able to move the darned thing at the end of the day onto a shelf?


 

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, ship69 said:

 

I'm sure that will be true. After all, why else would all these machines weigh so darned much!

What happens if I don't care very much about quality or accuracy? But instead I care about being able to move the darned thing at the end of the day onto a shelf?

Then just buy the lightest mill you can find. It won't cut anything but lightweight metals and wood. It won't cut iron or steel worth a darn and "pushing" it to try to will throw its accuracy out the window, but you'll be able to move it to a shelf at the end of the day. You didn't need any of use to tell you that, though, did you? It's a learning curve. Machine tools are like wives and waffles. You always have  to throw your first one out!  
 

 

[Landlubber Mike]

Sherline are built like tanks, you can always get replacement parts, and there are lots of accessories.  It will last a lifetime for sure.  I haven't used the others on your list, but can highly recommend Sherline.

[Jaager]

going into the area of speculation and supposition it seems as if you know that what you are proposing to do is likely to be a bad choice.  Wishing to be told that it could work, you ask here.  The likely consensus here is that if you are serious about milling, you are on the wrong path.  If you are just on a lark, you should perhaps widen your possibilities a bit.

 

I am thinking that speed is a useless standard if the machine lacks the power to maintain it when the cutter is exposed to a load.

 

If you want light weight, consider trying a EuroTool DRL 300.00.   It is a small drill press, so the quill bearings are not designed for much of a lateral load.  But with light shallow cuts, it may do.  If it does not work, at least you will have a drill press for model scale work, providing that it is not wrecked by forcing it.  It can be upgraded by attaching a XY table - AliExpress fronts for several Chinese suppliers of generic XY tables.

The cutters will need to be really sharp and likely high quality.

This machine is probably not that different from something low cost and light weight that is labeled as being a "milling machine".

[grsjax]

19 hours ago, ship69 said:

E. Servo Products - Heavy Duty Drill Press?

200-20,000 RPM, 9.5Kg, c 230 watts? (power used)

Elegant little thing but seems to be more of a high quality Drill Press, except that it looks like Mill Heads are available??
http://www.servoproductsco.com/html/heavy_duty_drill_press.html

Looks like a good drill press but does it have heavy duty quill bearings able to take a side load during milling and does it have a solid or hollow column?  Both of these issues are going to be important in doing any kind of milling.

[mtaylor]

I have the 4660 from Little Machine Shop.   Lovely machine to use and accurate.   It does break down into two pieces by removing 4 bolts.  Top speed is 5,000 rpm.  From my days many decades ago and being around the big mill (Cincinnati Milacron if I remember right) they didn't turn fast when milling steel or armor aluminum.... but those things weighed at least a ton or more.

 

BTW, for milling steel, you will need to set up a cooling method.  Most machines I've seen that do steel have an oil drip or flow system.

[mnl]

Aciera f1 or Sixis, why compromise.

[ship69]

16 hours ago, mnl said:

Aciera f1 or Sixis, why compromise.

What would be the going rate for such machines (2nd hand, presumably)?

And where would you suggest I look? I am based in the UK

[ship69]

On 4/7/2021 at 6:41 AM, noel_colledge said:

If you are looking to mill mild and stainless steel I would not suggest the Proxxon MF70. It is a great machine for light work such as wood or brass, but those materials over time will put too much pressure on the bearings. I take it from the currency quoted you are in the UK. I have an Axminster SX2 for larger work and although too heavy for your needs, they do a smaller model the SX1, it is a little lighter than the taig. I am very pleased with the Axminster and have no doubts it's little brother will do the job also.

 

Noel

 

Given that I don't have a permanent workshop, so what would you do? 
OR just give up trying to mill completely?

One thought would be to buy a Proxxon MF70 (or EuroTool DRL 300.00??)  and pay someone to insert better bearings!

At least it would still be easy to move it on/off a shelf!

 

J

 

PS My budget is up say GBP 750 or so, maybe twice that for something really good. Buying a second hand machine would be a possibility. 

 

PPS Another line of thought would be to buy a light-weight CNC milling machine and set it running (e.g. overnight if necessary) taking very small cuts off. The problem is that I suspect that think the learning curve would be painful. Also I work at a computer screen all day so it would be nice to NOT involve any computers!

 

PPPS: Maybe I should get this guy to improve a small milling machine for me.
(turn of sound unless you speak er Russian I think it is)

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by ship69

[ship69]

19 hours ago, grsjax said:

Looks like a good drill press but does it have heavy duty quill bearings able to take a side load during milling and does it have a solid or hollow column?  Both of these issues are going to be important in doing any kind of milling.

I have been trying to find out more about Servo machines for milling - which they seem to imply is possible, but they haven't beeen replying to my emails.

[Jim Rogers]

Sherline

[Maury S]

Sherline

Maury

[ship69]

1 hour ago, Maury S said:

Sherline
Maury

I am investigating Sherlines. Reasonably light and well made by all accounts but they are rather expensive.
They also don't seem to have quills which makes drilling very difficult & slow.

 

I can't find anything about "Maury" milling machines.

 

J
 

 

[Roger Pellett]

You can equip a Sherline mill with a Sensitive Drilling  Attachment that allows drilling small diameter holes without cranking the quill up and down.

 

My Sherline is an excellent tool.

 

Roger

[dvm27]

Ditto to what Roger said. Can't say enough about the quality of Sherline mill and lathes, both which I have used for over a decade.

[Canute]

I believe Maury is the gentleman who recommended the Sherline machine.

[No Idea]

Hi Shipmate 69

 

I use the Proxxon MF70 mill and its quite a good little machine.  The spindle speed is very fast and its quite accurate but it is tiny.  Its designed for modellers work and is not designed for large pieces.  I only have machined wood and brass which it has handled ok for its size.  Could it do 1mm mild steel that you want to machine?  I think that it probably could .........but you would need some really good tooling and also take extremely fine cuts.  How you would apply cooling I am unsure about but there are bottle fed cutting fluids that maybe could be used.  

 

I have thought about upgrading my mill to something bigger and have considered Sherline and the larger Proxxon machines.   But none of them have the spindle speed that I want for cutting wood cleanly and the size of them seems to be exponential if I moved up even a little.  I have little space where I live so I am learning to make the most of the machine that I have.

 

I buy the best cutting tools that I can and use my imagination when it comes to fixing the item for cutting.  Sometimes I win and get the job done and at others I just have to accept that my little machine is just not up to the job.  I don't think that there is a mill that does everything but mine does 85% of what I want and the rest I'll just have to get the hand tools out.

 

I hope you find your solution - Mark

[mnl]

A couple of links to info on Sixis and Aciera. I have both an Aciera F2 and F3. I got the F2 because it uses the same collets, W20, as the F3. Neither are made anymore, but do come available fairly regularly. Like all Swiss machines they are not inexpensive. 
 

http://www.lathes.co.uk/sixis/

 

http://www.lathes.co.uk/aciera/index.html

[glbarlow]

I love my MF 70, it is a great machine for modeling wood and brass. I can’t imagine though it would meet the specs you listed. That’s pretty heavy duty work. I’d highly recommend the MF70 to a model builder but not an iron worker. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by glbarlow

[bartley]

One of the  disadvantages of the MF 70 is that there is no head-stock rotation.  This may not be a limitation for your work.  The FF 230 offers this facility but at a more expensive price point.  As a small group of builders we purchased this machine as we could spread the cost. It is certainly more versatile and I think all the Sheerline models offer this facility as well.

 

John

Edited April 14, 2021 by bartley

[bricklayer]

If someone gave me one of those Sixis or Aciera  (watchmaker?)-machines, then I`d put it in a sealed showcase to protect it from dust and humidity,

I wouldn`t dare to touch it without wearing cotton gloves.

If I did any damage to such a machine while operating it, then I`d have seven sleepless nights in sequence.

 

I think that one shouldn`t recommend these swiss precision tools to a beginner.

 

Michael

[Bob Cleek]

Well, while we are on the subject of expensive machines, and because the most important requirement seems to be the ability to pick it up and put it on a shelf, one could consider the Unimat DB or SL lathe and mill machine. They are no longer made, but there are a lot of them on the used market and parts and tooling remain available, although some items, like threading attachments and complete collet sets are pricey. There are a lot of them on eBay, together with all the various attachments (jigsaw, table saw, planer, etc., etc.) They have a cult following. I love mine for what it is, given it's size limitations. I doubt there's ever been a more versatile modeling machine ever made, although for more money I'd buy a dedicated Sieg or Sherline lathe and mill these days, if for no other reason than the ready availability of tooling.

 

See: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313&_nkw=unimat&_sacat=0

        http://myplace.frontier.com/~steven.jaynes/lathes/Unimat-SLs/Unimat-SL Pic Link Page.html

        http://www.dirkfassbender.de/emco-unimat-sl.html

 

Lathe set-up with threading attachment:

 

 

Basic machine:

 

http://www.lathes.co.uk/unimat/

 

Milling configuration:

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[bruce d]

What Bob said.

Also, since I'm here, there are a couple of specific points that might underline why I would steer you toward the Unimat SL.

First, it is exactly what a small workshop needs all rolled into one. It can be moved around easily. Around 90%+ of what you will need from a lathe/mill for a model ship build can be handled by a DB/SL with a milling column, appropriate cutting tools, a decent 3 jaw chuck and a tailstock chuck providing you have another way of cutting wood to size. The circular saw attachment works very well with a bit of practice but a dedicated saw is better so I hesitate to include it in the 'must-have' list.  If you find you need further attachments, they are available.

Secondly, they are cheaper in the UK than North America. They hold their value also.

One last point: IMHO, to consider a CNC option seems almost like changing the subject. In practice, there would be such a steep learning curve that it would take you away from building the model. CNC is very popular with certain types of model engineers and quite often their background has exposed them to the dark art of setting up and programming but for most people it is hard work and does not always work out as planned.

Just my opinion, you will know what feels like the best for you.

HTH

Bruce 👍

[mnl]

The Servo will make a very nice drill press. It is not a mill. The basic Sherline does not have a quill, it will make a bad drill press. The ability to feed consistently and fast enough is more important than the absolute speed. If the drill rubs, any but the lowest carbon steels will work harden and that will be that. I don’t know how well the Sherline sensitive feed works. The machines are quite nice, but somewhat compromised to hit a price point. If your priority is really making small holes consider a Dumore 16 sensitive drilling machine. Those are very nice. If you can find one, an old Electro-Mechano is equally good.

 

 

Wait a minute, stop presses...

 

If you are in the U.K. do you not know of Cowells? As in cowells.com. Have a look there and report back.

[mnl]

Your other possibility would be to go to any of the ME site and look for a good pillar drill. You don’t need 10k rpm, it will only hurt you if you can’t feed fast enough.