Roman Quadrireme Galley by Ian_Grant - 1/32 Scale - RADIO

[Bedford]

That's a great demonstration, lovely to see it moving with all oars.

 

If you look at the rudders on RC sailboats you'll find they are normally way oversize because scale size isn't enough so if you want scale rudders you might need to get creative like, and it's a sneaky and historically abhorrent solution but I'm sure you could get a small bow thruster to slip into probably the stern, for proper movement, to help it turn. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Bedford

[BANYAN]

Thanks for your response Ian; your response highlights that I may not have been as clear as I should in my wording.  I think your answer was definitive, but just in case, what I tried to say, was that while two oars are fitted, only one was typically used at time?  From your response though I gather that both oars were either united or manned?  Just interested

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

Congratulations on your first sea trial!

 

On 9/22/2023 at 11:15 AM, Ian_Grant said:

Will need to revisit the upper oar bars this winter and mount them again more carefully. Probably would be a good idea to change their mounting holes in the beam to vertical slots to allow adjustments on the fly.

That sounds like a good idea. I'd agree: although the fulcrum for oars should be as close to the water as possible for maximum rowing efficiency, they do need to be able to be lifted far enough to avoid catching crabs on the return stroke.

 

The action looks good - quite similar to that of the Olympias, so you must be on the right track. Perhaps a little slower would be good, to look even more realistic? I know this works for model railways - people always seem to run their trains too fast to look quite real.

 

On 9/22/2023 at 11:15 AM, Ian_Grant said:

She is very sensitive to ballast amount and distribution

Yes - so is the Olympias. Apparently people have to be careful walking around on the upper deck because the vessel tilts alarmingly very easily.

 

Your turning using backwater on one side seems to work well (though again, perhaps it would look better if it was a little slower). I can understand your issues with the rudders for lesser turns. Unfortunately I can't make any suggestions - you're right; not enough movement through the water to get the rudders to 'bite' properly, and this may simply be a matter of scale - she's 1/32nd of the length of the full-sized ship, so volume is 1/32 x 1/32 x 1/32 = 1/32,768 according to my calculator - miniscule effects compared to the real thing - perhaps even in relation to the water molecules? Certainly in relation to surface tension.

 

Now that I see her in the water, she seems rather high in comparison with her length for a vessel propelled by muscle power. (extra height = extra weight) - at least at bow and stern. I just looked back at page 4 of your build log (posts #100 and #106) and your quadrireme does seem rather higher in relation to its length than the triere shown in post #100 (I realise they're not the same type of ship and that does make a difference). Might just be worth a thought. The weight difference surely doesn't make any difference to her performance, so long as she floats at the right level - and it would be totally pointless getting into a scaled power to weight ratio comparison between a fully loaded and crewed ship with the power provided by a crew, vs the weight of  the mechanism you've put into your model and the power it provides. 

 

The carrying handle idea seems worthwhile - it'll be interesting to see if it works ok.

 

Anyway, wonderful work so far. Looking forward to further progress.

 

Steven

 

 

[Ian_Grant]

Hi Steven, thanks for taking the time to discuss the boat on water!

 

To your first point, yes it's true, I've been running it at full throttle, most of the time. More relaxed rowing is available; indeed I probably should reduce software variable "MSR" (Maximum Sweep Rate) and re-compile. All this is still in experimental/development stage. Everything is open. Except cutting the bottom off the hull and rebuilding it with smaller displacement (!); I've decided that I couldn't face the work involved.

 

You've put your finger on the classic RC "scale problem". Let's call this ship 1/30 for round values; scale oar blades would be 1/30 as long and 1/30 as wide, for a total of 1/900 actual area. My oar blades are ridiculous for the scale, but hey, we need some traction here! Model sailing ships have it worse - for scale factor "n" they end up with, as you say, 1/(n**3) the displacement for 1/(n**2) the sail area, meaning "n" times as much sail area for the displacement. Hence all the dagger keels with lead bulbs.

 

Over the weekend at the cottage I decided I **must** have some form of effective rudder control, even if it relies on stopping the inside oars (I'll save backstroking oars for emergencies; not sure they could even do it). I looked at my 30 degree dummy rudders, and when viewed from straight ahead the 1.25" wide blades presented an apparent 5/8" wide strip 2" long as resistance to the water. Now I see why they couldn't do much. To that end I played around today with larger blades clamped to my dummy rudders. With 2" x 3" blades I get pretty decent response. Two inches is as deep in the water as I want them to get; that's the limit for no rudder damage when sitting the boat on a flat surface with the resulting tilt because of the external keel. Three inches is wildly large. I will follow a convention I've seen in RC modelling mags where one paints a scale rudder on the over-large blade, then fills in the rest with black paint to "hide" the excess when in water. With that sort of dimension I may balance it a little too. Depends on aesthetics.

 

Regarding the height, yes my first drawing here looked like an overweight guppy. There are two factors (1) scale appearance would have the lower oar ports just 3/4" clear of water. I decided that was too risky so I added 1/2" for peace of mind (relatively). This extra 1/2" shifts everything up, obviously; and (2) the oar loom ends rise in the hull as the blades bite water. The deck beams must clear the oar mechanisms' beams when they hit their highest point. I reworked the oar geometry a couple of times with this in mind. Way back I reduced loom to 1.5" for this reason, but I had to change back to 2" for mechanical clearances when I decided to increase the outrigger projection to 1.25" because to my eye 3/4" was too paltry for the hull. In retrospect I could have lowered the deck somewhat by allowing for thinner beams, but I did not want the separate lift-off long deck to warp in future so decided 1/2" beams was the number. No one today really knows how tall these ships were; Pitassi quotes various classical sources and gives approx 10 feet as a quadrireme's deck height over WL. There's a pic below of "Marcus"  standing on water by the break in the forward bulwark for boarding bridge deployment from the deck. Deck height looks fairly ok, even bearing in mind that Marcus is a scale 6'-2" giant of a Roman. 😏

 

One reason Olympias looks so low is that there are no bulwarks on the upper deck.

 

Here are pics of the giant rudders, and Marcus walking on water. Note, the real rudders won't be massive above waterline !!!

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

On 9/22/2023 at 8:40 PM, BANYAN said:

Thanks for your response Ian; your response highlights that I may not have been as clear as I should in my wording.  I think your answer was definitive, but just in case, what I tried to say, was that while two oars are fitted, only one was typically used at time?  From your response though I gather that both oars were either united or manned?  Just interested

 

cheers

 

Pat

Pat - Yes both oars were used. In fact, on Hellenic triremes such as "Olympias" a single helmsman handles both, one tiller in each hand, one hand going forward and the other back depending on which way she is turning. Roman quadriremes were bigger and wider, requiring two helmsmen. See the fantastically beautiful, manned, model quinquereme in the video below (I'm hoping to paint and decorate my ship much like his although I have no actual planking to leave "natural" coloured). 🤞 At time 11:17 the two helmsmen are clearly seen, even wearing green and red to delineate their side, HaHa!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLiGM6MOBL0

 

If interested, his completion video is here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuYBk0znbB8&list=PLN8dHnRD0y61NWWulgdXo7fMLYSnjZ943&index=11

 

 

 

 

[Louie da fly]

Hi Ian,

 

The height of the oarholes above water don't look excessive at all, but it was the heights at bow and stern that seemed a bit much. However, so far I haven't seen the full midships height once the superstructure is on so I don't have an idea of how it will look when that is added.

 

Good luck with those rudders! Your 'disguise' idea might be the only workable answer.

 

Anyway, looking good.

 

Steven

[Ian_Grant]

Thanks Steven;  Draw a level bulwark between bow and stern bulwarks and that's the hull.

 

Perhaps you are right. I'll consider it over the winter. I do see that my bow and stern bulwarks sweep up earlier than for example those in the gentleman's ship in #335; they could be reworked.

 

Consider the following pic from the cover of Conway's book on galleys. This Greek ship is pretty tall even without bulwarks.....

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

Tomorrow I will be taking the mechanisms, electronics, and ballast out of the hull to return to just working on a wooden ship.

 

Changes I have in mind for the mechanisms include:

 

1) Have vertical mounting slots for the upper oar beams to facilitate adjustment relative to the lower beams.

 

2) Since I will not have the central handle, move the lift servos closer to midships to reduce the disparity between the link lengths to each end, and move the servo mounts slightly closer to the keel line to allow slightly longer servo arms to be used.

 

3) Cut a notch in the u-channel where the bellcranks are mounted to allow them to tilt further down. This change combined with the longer lift servo arms will give a greater range of lift movement which I think I need to keep oars well out of water during return strokes.  The existing range of movement barely meets the theoretical requirement from the oar geometry drawing. I can use the Arduino "Map" command to select whatever sub-range I want, later.

 

I rejected the idea of tearing the hull apart to change the bilge shape, so I will just have to live with the weight of the thing. One factor contributing to the amount of ballast is that I thought of cutting off the excess ends of the drawer slides well after designing the bilge curve. As a historical footnote, here is a pic of the metal thus removed. A not inconsiderable weight....

 

I probably won't be posting for a while, until I have some meaningful work done on the hull, but I will enjoy reading all your build logs.

Thanks for following this build. More later.

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

Despite my previous comment, here is another short post.

 

Hadn't got around to stripping the interior parts until today. Before doing this, I borrowed a cat weigh scale from my wife's clinic.

 

Weight of hull/mechanisms/oars/servos/arduino  (no battery) ..........  5.5 kg

Total lead ballast                                                                         ..........  5.2 kg

 

Total displacement ...... 10.7 kg (!) you can see why carrying with a midships handle would be problematic...

*************************************************************************************************************************

 

In post #127 I estimated hull + mechanisms would be 7.9 kg. That was before I thought of cutting the metal drawer slides shorter.

So the actual at 5.5 kg is about 30% less than estimated. Actually, a bit more because the 5.5 kg includes servos and all.

 

My estimated total displacement, with battery, was 8.34 kg.

I designed the hull to give me some extra displacement over and above this, which would be met using ballast.

 

I ended up with extra displacement of (10.7 - 8.34)/8.34 = 28% .

 

Given that it's still a little sensitive to ballast distribution I wouldn't want to reduce it, so no hull re-work is I think the correct call.

 

So the overall result is not bad. If I did rebuild the hull, I'd just be losing ballast and maybe it would be too tippy.

 

Thanks for following. Toodle-ooh!

Edited October 3, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

Was going to refrain from posting for a while, BUT I just went to the library and used the laser etcher to make some decking patterns for the two steering platforms, as a test of whether to do the same for the main deck too. I'm thrilled by the result. Going to "plank" the tops of the outriggers too now.

 

You can just see a few "test" planks at the left that were etched to select the raster speed for a good darkness level.

 

Marcus is thankful to have a good solid deck to stand on instead of water ...... 😏

 

 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

That looks great, Ian. I bought a laser machine off one of those startup type sites earlier this year, delivery is due this month and I’d expect any future decks of mine to be wood or veneers. You must have a very good library over there.

[Ian_Grant]

On 9/26/2023 at 1:18 AM, Louie da fly said:

Hi Ian,

 

The height of the oarholes above water don't look excessive at all, but it was the heights at bow and stern that seemed a bit much. However, so far I haven't seen the full midships height once the superstructure is on so I don't have an idea of how it will look when that is added.

 

Good luck with those rudders! Your 'disguise' idea might be the only workable answer.

 

Anyway, looking good.

 

Steven

I'm building up the hull sides above the outrigger so we can now see how the hull looks with wood added to deck level. I think it looks proportional. My one doubt is that I began the upsweep of the bow bulwarks too early; I may revisit the curve though it will be painful to cut off my painstakingly laminated false  top rails.

 

Here are some pics. I used the library's laser cutter (60W Epilog Mini) to etch some planking for the outrigger tops. My mind is opening to the possibilities of this machine. I didn't want to form all the "X" shapes in the ventilation course with bits of wood; thought I might 3D print it in sections; finally used the laser to cut them out. I ordered some decorative brass strips from Etsy to dress up the hull but now I'm wondering if I could just laser etch patterns.

 

The ventilation is lasered out of 1/8" cherry and will be painted white. The pine wood behind will be painted black to simulate openings into the hull. I'm wondering how to finish the planking; spar varnish would look like a bowling alley lane. I'm reluctant to use water-based because it will bring up the plywood skin's grain and I don't want to sand much and perhaps damage the etching. Also pondering dry-brushing another colour on the planks for some aging. Does anyone have any ideas?

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Glen McGuire]

Beautiful work, Ian.  I love the look of the X pattern.

[gjdale]

1 hour ago, Ian_Grant said:

I'm reluctant to use water-based because it will bring up the plywood skin's grain and I don't want to sand much and perhaps damage the etching

 

Perhaps use a sanding sealer first? That should overcome the issue. A very light sand afterwards will give you a nice base to apply the paint.

 

[Bill97]

Ian this is absolutely fascinating!  Your mechanical and electrical engineering skill is so over my head but I still enjoy reading through it, especially the videos. Great job my friend. 

[Ian_Grant]

Thanks Bill; it's been quite a saga but now that the finishing stages have arrived I'm really looking forward to painting it up nice. I joined the local RC model boat group; apart from monthly meetings in the winter, I think they usually have one session at a local indoor pool. I'm hoping to be ready for that evening.

[Keith_W]

This has to be one of the more incredible build logs on MSW. With most of the other logs, the focus is on research and craftsmanship. With your log, it's also about engineering and getting the project to work. I can't imagine myself ever acquiring the skills to do what you have done. 

[Bill97]

Ian the RC model boat group sounds fun. Not only do you need to build a beautiful ship, you need to make it float and move. As Marc has made very clear in his modification of the Soleli Royal kit. There is no way it would not tip over based on the shape of the hull. Luckily I don’t have to worry about that. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Bill97

[Ian_Grant]

19 hours ago, Keith_W said:

This has to be one of the more incredible build logs on MSW. With most of the other logs, the focus is on research and craftsmanship. With your log, it's also about engineering and getting the project to work. I can't imagine myself ever acquiring the skills to do what you have done. 

Keith, that's high praise indeed, thank you very much!  I made electric RC boats in my teens, had no time for decades, wanted to get back into it but do something unique. This will be great looking on the water but will be a bear to get there. Long, wide, and heavy. And where to store in winter? I may have to sell it.

 

10 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Ian the RC model boat group sounds fun. Not only do you need to build a beautiful ship, you need to make it float and move. As Marc has made very clear in his modification of the Soleil Royal kit. There is no way it would not tip over based on the shape of the hull. Luckily I don’t have to worry about that. 

Actually BIll people do build RC models of such ships. The secret is to have a relatively long fin keel amidships with a lead bulb ballast on the end to "stiffen" the ship. When this galley is done, and "Preussen" is finished, I would like to build an RC square rigger; not a warship with cannons but something along the lines of a windjammer. Here is a link to a very informative and interesting site about Mr. Neville Wade's fleet of such ships. I would like to build something like his "Judith Kate" based on the actual ship "Herzogin Cecile" which ran aground off Devon in 1935 under a new captain who had replaced a highly experienced captain who retired. Apparently she had just arrived to the UK and was veering inshore to receive signalled orders when she hit a rock. Of interest is that the owner, Gustav Erikson, dismissed the new captain for losing his favourite ship even though the captain was as I recall a relative. He ended up farming sheep in South Africa!

 

http://www.cocatrez.net/Water/NevilleWadeShips/index.html

Edited October 13, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

I used the library 3D printer to make a few test shapes to match the bow cross section where the ram meets it. The third try was pretty good. I then used the final shape as a base, and drew the rest of the ram. Being inexperienced with TinkerCAD this took me 1.5 days which seems ridiculous given the result, however if I had to do it again I'd be much faster knowing what I now know.

 

Here is the full ram. I decorated it using the shapes library. The top contains two lightning bolts where the stem enters the "casting" and I added a sun symbol on the top surface of the topmost fin. The machine predicts 2hrs43 minutes to print. Hoping for a good result. 🤞

 

 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

That’s really not bad going using TinkerCAD. I think all CAD is quite difficult at first and that quite an advanced shape. I hope the print comes out well, I imagine it’s a filament printer so you’ll at least get a nice, strong ram.

[Hubac's Historian]

Simply incredible, Ian!

[Bill97]

Beautiful Ian. You guys doing your own 3D printing of parts are taking model building to a neighborhood I have never been too, nor does my GPS have any idea where it is! 😀

[Ian_Grant]

6 hours ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

That’s really not bad going using TinkerCAD. I think all CAD is quite difficult at first and that quite an advanced shape. I hope the print comes out well, I imagine it’s a filament printer so you’ll at least get a nice, strong ram.

Yes, that tapered base with rounded corners is a mess of tilted cylinders and planes. I cannot figure out how to remove, say, an unwanted corner of a plane sticking out from the side of a cylinder. Maybe TinkerCAD lacks the complexity, or maybe it can be done but I don't know how.

 

We'll see about the print.  I had to be at the library printer to get the print time estimate and while there we discussed what orientation to try. I want the decorative elements to be clean. If they come out a mess I may split it into three parts but hope not to have to go there.

 

1 hour ago, Bill97 said:

Beautiful Ian. You guys doing your own 3D printing of parts are taking model building to a neighborhood I have never been too, nor does my GPS have any idea where it is! 😀

BIll, TinkerCAD is not too hard to use and as you see it can generate intricate shapes. You might want to look into the whole 3D thing and see if you have any access to a local printer. For example, Heller's "Preussen" has nonsensical kit ladders but my brother printed new ones for me from a TinkerCAD file I sent him. Handy for modelling!

Edited October 25, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Ian, I'd gently encourage you to take a look at Fusion 360. I made that step when I was finding my TinkerCAD designs were becoming just a bit too complicated and I couldn't quite get what I wanted. It sounds like that's where you're at too and, if I may make assumptions, I sense that you are quite interested in this stuff (printing, lasering) so you'll end up there sooner or later anyway! I think you'll get to be able to do most of that design fairly quickly, within an hour or two, the slightly harder bit (maybe) will be the decor, but you can sing out if you need to. I share this link quite often, because I found it to be a first rate 'printed' tutorial, as opposed to the equally excellent Kevin Kennedy videos and I need to be able to read and repeat the steps on day 1: https://diyodemag.com/education/exploring_3d_part_1_beginners_guide_to_fusion_360

[Ian_Grant]

Printed the ram.  It came out pretty good except for some of those curved decorations I added between the ball projections (I added some more of these to the design which are not in my TinkerCAD screen grab above). They started to fail because the printer was trying to deposit them on a slope, as I printed the whole thing standing up. I need another print anyway because as it turns out my pins projecting from the hull are not quite symmetric, and also I need to ask the Imagine Space staff about making the base part solid to allow me to use melt-in threaded brass inserts in order to attach the ram with a couple of set screws from below. This original print is all default settings, 0.2mm layer and 10% fill. I will take the opportunity to beef up those arc segments so they can print better, I hope.

 

I also started to clean up the deck beams by framing in the three removable deck areas (bow, stern, entire engine room). The stern framing is very heavy since this will form a handle for picking her up out of the water.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Those bronze rams could really punch a hole in an enemy ship's hull ... enough to ruin that captain's day.

 

[Louie da fly]

On 10/28/2023 at 4:41 AM, Ian_Grant said:

It came out pretty good except for some of those curved decorations I added between the ball projections

 

It certainly beats trying to make the ram out of sheet metal (of course, you could try actually casting the thing in bronze! )

 

Steven

Edited October 28, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Ian_Grant]

On 10/28/2023 at 6:17 PM, Louie da fly said:

 

It certainly beats trying to make the ram out of sheet metal (of course, you could try actually casting the thing in bronze! )

 

Steven

I did at one point contemplate trying to solder it together from brass, but I regained my senses. 😏

[Ian_Grant]

More laser-cutter work. I realized the twin steering platform components could be easily done on the machine. It also etched the plank pattern for their decks.

This technology could turn me into a lazy worker - since I was cutting out the 1/16" ply layer panelled parts I also cut out the blank rectangles for the 2nd ply layer as opposed to manually making them to fit. Here is the result:

Also started to add trim timbers at the bow. There is a panelling effect remaining to be added below the bulwark rail. Sanding of the u/w epoxy resin not yet done.

 

Finally, my "ship bling" arrived from Etsy!!  There are two patterns of "strip" material to place along some of the trim timbers, and two types of decorative medallions, one pair to place each side of the disc at the top of the stem, and another (with eyes to be cut off) to maybe be used as shield motifs along the main bulwarks.

Oh, and also added the first "bling" - decorative element around the "hawses" where the anchor ropes come out. External-tooth lock washers epoxied to flat washers, then epoxied at drilled holes at the front of the outriggers. The outrigger front panels have their trim; more will be added along the upper and lower edges of the outrigger sides. Thinking about going to Evergreen styrene strip for this as 1/16" x 3/32" wood strips are kind of small to cut on a 3hp table-saw ......