HM Sloop Echo 1781 by VTHokiEE - 1:48 - Cross-Section

[BobG]

2 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

you all can see how it isn’t all that clever 😃

 

Pretty darn clever if you ask me, Tim...uh...VTHokiEE... 🤣

[EricWilliamMarshall]

I’m pulling up a chair to watch the show! It might be time to update your signature!

[Trussben]

I look forward to watching your progress on the Echo, I started my dark side career out on exactly the same subject and it stood me in great stead.

 

Ben

 

[Justin P.]

Im in!   Id love to follow along.   Sound like you went through or are going through a lot of the same thoughts that I did.  I settled the other-way around and went with Triton first - but am looking forward to how you get on with the Echo.    Funny how we all interpret things differently...   I actually though (having no previous experience) that Triton looked to be an easier first foray into scratch building, despite all the supporting materials provided by Admiralty!

 

I dont think you need a spindle sander.  I had similar workshop space considerations to deal with and ended up decided on a bench top drill press that can be used as a spindle sander.   My drill press/spindle sander deal cost me about $150 all-together and got both tools (more or less).  I did all my Triton frames this way.   You dont need it, but it does save time - and if you can combine tools you save space.  

[VTHokiEE]

3 hours ago, Justin P. said:

Triton looked to be an easier first foray into scratch building

Glad to have you along! I think that you’re probably right in this regard (especially regarding the framing). I’m really enjoying your build btw - great work.

 

3 hours ago, Justin P. said:

ended up decided on a bench top drill press that can be used as a spindle sander.

I’ve been casually researching this option (I say casually because I frequently end up staring at the proxxon MF70 working if I could press that into service for a lot of things as well). I may have to pick your brain about what exactly you ended up with (especially if my 3D printed mini drill press doesn’t cut it when I try to add the bolts to the keel).

[Justin P.]

23 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

I’ve been casually researching this option (I say casually because I frequently end up staring at the proxxon MF70

I have both.   The MF70 is a fun tool and does small milling task well.  However for Triton I used my drill press and the DIY spindle options FAR more than the mill.  I think the mill came in handy on one task which is easily replicated with a good home made scraper.    If I were to invest in one or the other ahead of redoing the build I would go with the drill press.   If you are interested I can send a full list of stuff I got for the drill press.   
 

If you have the Byrnes saw, you likely don’t need a mill after some practice for that keel.  
 

I should add that the MF70 won’t have the lateral horse power to do any kind of decent spindle sanding.   You will really want something beefier if you want go the sanding route.   The MF70 relies on high speed and sharp milling bits, it’s not really a workhorse.   The press will go for hours and not complain at all.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Justin P.

[BobG]

55 minutes ago, Justin P. said:

If you are interested I can send a full list of stuff I got for the drill press.  

 

I would love to see this, Justin.

[Rustyj]

Hi Tim,

 

I have the MF 70 and agree with Justin P. Great little mill but I don't think spindle sanding would be good.

 

At the time I didn't have a drill press but I did have a Dremel drill press. I built a stand and it worked real well on something as small as the echo. If you do have a drill press then chucking a sanding spindle in it works real well too.

 

[VTHokiEE]

I'm quickly learning how little I know about using the tools I have. I have to greatly thanks @Rustyj for telling me how he cuts these joints. Long story short - use a higher tooth blade. I bought a 90T slitting blade with my byrnes saw and it sat happily in its box until I learned this (which then meant I had to learn how to change a saw blade... slightly embarrassed to admit that I needed to learn how to do that). After changing the blade I had a much easier time making the keel joint. That lead me to my tool that caused me heartache - the dreaded v gouge to create the keel rabbet. I'm pretty certain I have enough scrap wood from trying to learn how to freehand gouge a rabbet that I can heat my house this winter with it. At the end I came to the conclusion that I'm not great at making a straight line freehand, so I decided to try another method - making a scraper. This scraed me because I had never done such a thing, but in the end it really wasn't that difficult. I heated an only utility knife blade to red hot and let it cool, taped the pattern to the bladed and filed away. After I heated the bladed back up and cooled it quickly (I believe I saw that hardens it again?). You can see the corner isn't quite as 90 degree as it should be, but I was happy.

After a few practice runs I was able to scrape out a rabbet much easier than using a gouge. If anyone is having an issue with carving and a scraper could work I highly suggest trying to make a scraper.

 

 

Now to figure out how to do the false keel - a seemingly easy task, but back to learning my tools. I didn't properly set my wood making the cut so it as at a slight angle and then gluing paper in this joint failed to make a bond. I'm contemplating trying paint or maybe even sharpie marker 😬 to simulate the tarring here (we'll see how it goes). The image below is untrimmed paper that I couldn't fully remove with sharpie on a few edges - it needs to be cleaned up and won't be the final piece, simply a test.

Please don't hesitate to point out any issues you see. I think I got it right, but I'm all ears if you see something that I missed. 

 

[druxey]

A scraper works well for a rabbet on a cross-section. Of course at bow and stern the angles change considerably, but for your model it did a good job.

[dvm27]

It is easier to add the false keel sections together directly onto the keel as it is difficult to achieve a good bond over the angled tarred joint. I first glue a strip of black archival tissue paper over one surface, trim it when dry then perforate with pinholes. I seem to get a better bond this way. Additionally I would add the rising wood before cutting the rabbet as the bottom edge of the rising wood is incorporated into the rabbet.

[VTHokiEE]

21 minutes ago, dvm27 said:

Additionally I would add the rising wood before cutting the rabbet as the bottom edge of the rising wood is incorporated into the rabbet.

Very good to know. My currently plan will then shift to cutting the rising wood out and attaching it before worrying too much more on the false keel. I’ll try to scrape the rabbet again and see how it comes out after adding the rising wood. Worst case I remake it all one more time 😁

[dvm27]

Not sure your scraper will work with the rising wood attached but it would be a simple thing to knock off the lower edge of the rising wood with a v gouge if you add the rising wood after gouging the keel rabbet. There are many micro chisels with V-gouges available. for example:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/829851705/6pc-ramelson-sub-mini-wood-carving?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_a-craft_supplies_and_tools-tools_and_equipment-tools-other&utm_custom1=_k_Cj0KCQjwrJOMBhCZARIsAGEd4VFVN-rbOsnoV5afiynLCTWedCa7SWmgSkYYybXi-DfKyItXOfDjyaEaArPBEALw_wcB_k_&utm_content=go_12569400892_126353655504_507394790794_aud-459688892115:pla-295604191622_c__829851705_443242358&utm_custom2=12569400892&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrJOMBhCZARIsAGEd4VFVN-rbOsnoV5afiynLCTWedCa7SWmgSkYYybXi-DfKyItXOfDjyaEaArPBEALw_wcB

 

[mtaylor]

If you haven't seen this, it's posted in the Tools area and it should be a big help to anyone with a hobby saw like the Byrnes.   This was done Jeff (the former wood supplier).

 

[VTHokiEE]

Thanks @mtaylor those are good tips. I had seen it before but if I had it in the front of my mind I would’ve been better off.

 

I will say that I am starting to feel much more comfortable with the saw. For that alone I’m glad to be doing this project.

Edited November 5, 2021 by VTHokiEE

[mtaylor]

I've learned to keep a copy in my "saw tools" drawer.   It's been pretty beat up and I need to print a new one.

[VTHokiEE]

5 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

It's been pretty beat up and I need to print a new one.

We have a cheap laminator, anything like that which doesn’t go in page protectors in my modeling binder gets laminated. Planking fans, rope recipes, etc. I use the laminator more frequently than I ever thought I would.

[VTHokiEE]

Keel V1 is complete (and I apologize in advance for all these photos, my flash is fighting the overhead florescent tubes and it is very difficult to balance). I decided to cut out the optional rising wood - mainly because I thought it looked cool and I wanted to play with my saw more. I think I'm most proud of this piece.

The few things that could be improved upon are

• The Harris cut joint is entirely the wrong place according to the plans. I'm not entirely certain how I moved it too far back, but I did. I'm also not certain that the location of this joint is really a critical detail (for me at the moment).
• The bolts aren't exactly aligned. I don't have a drill press and did the best I could with a small 3D printed station that I had tinkered with awhile ago. Sadly the drill for that is not really aligned and it shows. I think to improve upon this I need to buy a drill press and I'm simply not certain that is in the cards right now.
• The tarred flannel - I used black tissue paper and in one area, by the Harris cut joint it is rough (maybe I can sand a little bit there to clean it up).

All in all I'm happy with what I've accomplished, but I'm not certain if I should try to salvage the rising wood and try again. Any thoughts?

 

[Rustyj]

That looks nice especially for your first attempt. If you have the wood and the

desire doing a second one won't hurt. I think I did three on mine.

[druxey]

One way to get around not having a drill press is mark out accurately on both sides, prick the center points and drill, slightly under size, from both sides. If the holes don't quite meet in the middle, the correct size drill up should take care of things.

[VTHokiEE]

11 hours ago, Rustyj said:

If you have the wood and the desire doing a second one won't hurt.

Thanks Rusty. I purchased a sheet of 1/4" AYC from Syren ages ago but ended up not using it. I decided to mill all the pieces for the first version of the keel from that stock - so I have plenty of wood at the moment. I'm currently thinking that I will build a second one and then decide which I prefer before moving forward. I don't have my building board yet, nor the screw/tap set for the keel so I'm doing a little waiting either way.

 

9 hours ago, druxey said:

mark out accurately on both sides, prick the center points and drill, slightly under size, from both sides.

I appreciate the tip druxey. I'm going to have to ponder this and do some experimenting - it is sound advice but I'm concerned about my ability to execute 🙂

[dvm27]

If you're building a second version make the first keel/false keel assembly slightly thicker with the tissue paper extending beyond the edges. Use a new blade to trim the excess paper to the margins. Then run through your thickness sander or over sandpaper affixed to a smooth surface for final dimensioning. You should get a perfectly clean paper edge this way.

[VTHokiEE]

Almost finished up V2 of my keel (took a little while longer than expected because it may actually be V3 - a drill bit broke in the second and somehow messed up the rising wood pattern as well but shhh 🤫). Is there a general consensus about trying to blacken the simulated brass bolts? I can do some test runs but I'm slightly worried that either the blackening chemicals will mar the surrounding wood, or the blackening will run off and mar the surrounding wood.

 

Still no building board, but I have the drill bit, tap and screws (hopefully they are long enough) when I get there.

[mtaylor]

You'll have to blacken them before installing them.  However, if you can use copper, liver of sulpur will blacken the copper without affecting the wood.

[VTHokiEE]

43 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

You'll have to blacken them before installing them.

Well it maybe too late for that 😂. I inserted brass wire and then trimmed it flush. I’m not altogether certain how I could blacken the wire ends prior (getting the perfect length cut before installation seems tricky). Would you recommend using something different (seems like copper wire would fit the bill next time potentially…)?

[glbarlow]

Try 15 pound black fishing line, I found it on Amazon. It’s what I’m using on Winchelsea. 

[VTHokiEE]

8 hours ago, glbarlow said:

Try 15 pound black fishing line, I found it on Amazon.

That’s wise… damn guess another revision is in my future. Do you have a link? And have you measured the diameter?

[Gregory]

11 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

Well it maybe too late for that

You might try just putting the tiniest bit of blackening solution on the end of the wire.  I would use the end of a toothpick, dampened but no drop formed.

There shouldn't be enough to migrate into the surrounding wood.

[glbarlow]

2 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

Do you have a link? And have you measured the diameter?

I just searched it on Amazon, there are several brands. I don’t recall the diameter, I tested a few small drill bits on scrap wood until I got a fit I liked. Not my idea by the way, credit goes to Chuck. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by glbarlow

[Justin P.]

12 hours ago, glbarlow said:

Try 15 pound black fishing line, I found it on Amazon. It’s what I’m using on Winchelsea. 

I have used this too.   Sometimes referred to simply as "black monofilament."   Not always associated with fishing...