To Sail, or Not to Sail...

[DeHammer]

I'm new to the wooden ship model scene. I picked up what seems to be a neat book for beginners like me called 'Ship Modelling Simplified', by Frank Mastini (ironic name). It's kind of cool to see that someone who spent so many years building wooden ship models was expounding the basics, and helping people new to the hobby not feel overwhelmed with the challenges ahead. So far I'm enjoying the book. He has some neat ideas for simple jigs as well.

 

Anyways, I was reading ahead a bit, and to my surprise, he wasn't super keen on the idea of full sails. To sum up my perspective of his opinion.... 1) Sails are a lot of effort, 2) they will never appear true to the scale of most model ships, 3) getting more realistic with sails makes the rigging much more complicated, and 4) they pretty much hide a lot of your hard effort detailing the masts & rigging. 

 

So I was curious what people here thought about having sails unfurled, versus models that just show off their masts & rigging and keep sails furled. What's your preference? Is there a time to go furled vs a time to go unfurled? What ships can pull off unfurled sails best? 

 

[Louie da fly]

I think you'll find a wide divergence in opinion on this one - I've done both, but despite the reasons you've quoted against sails, I feel sails are a sailing ship's raison d'être, so should be shown. Yes, the fabric available is never going to be fine enough to replicate real sails to scale (though even this can be largely solved by using silkspan).

 

I think there are valid reasons for both furled and unfurled, and it's often a matter of what you're intending to portray. It would be quite interesting, for example, to show a ship hove to, so the sails on one mast are facing the opposite way to the others - or a ship with sails drying, or partially furled.

 

As far as which ships can pull unfurled off best, I think they all look good under full sail, but I particularly like the look of the sails on ships of the late 16th/early 17th centuries. On the other hand, a lateen sail is particularly beautiful as well. All a matter or personal preference.

 

Steven

[allanyed]

3 hours ago, DeHammer said:

1) Sails are a lot of effort, 2) they will never appear true to the scale of most model ships, 3) getting more realistic with sails makes the rigging much more complicated, and 4) they pretty much hide a lot of your hard effort detailing the masts & rigging. 

I tend to agree with these points for the most part - There is no cloth in existence that is to scale nor any sewing method for scales of 1:48 or smaller, and even 1:24 is a stretch.  Non-woven materials can be used and look far better than cloth but they still block the view of much of the rigging.  Like Steven mentions in his post, I have also done both, but I am of the school that in most cases sails ruin the look otherwise beautiful models.  With the exception of when a client requires and pays for sails I never consider adding them.  Just one opinion.

 

Allan

Edited June 10, 2022 by allanyed

[DennisL]

I agree with Steven.  I have built models with and without sails but prefer to show them with sails.  The material I use is silkspan which I purchase thru Bluejacket.   There are a number of tutorials on the website which show how to ue this material.  It takes some experimentation but once mastered I think silkspan lends itself to realistic sails at scales of 1:48 and 1:64. Haven't tried anything in smaller scales. I try to show ships with partial sails furled and unfurled.  This lends itself to more visibility of the rigging. 

 

Of course if you have sails on your model you should probably show some figures on deck which is another kettle of fish to discuss....

 

Dennis

[GrandpaPhil]

I personally like sails on my models.  I have used them on all of my recent builds.

[ccoyle]

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

I think you'll find a wide divergence in opinion on this one

 

Yup. I have done both with and without. Don't hesitate to add them if that's the look you like. The one recommendation I would make is to steer clear of pre-sewn sails as these rarely, if ever, look 'right'.

[Dave_E]

Hi Hammer,

 

There are a few things that you will find among ship builders. If you ask an equal number of builders about whether they want sails furled, under sail, or no sails, you will an unlimited number of opinions. This also applies to using ca glue, and using nails for planking. 
 

Dig in with your research, study many build logs and then decide what you want to try and go for it. If you build one ship and you don’t like what happened, do it differently on your next.

 

Welcome aboard! 👍😀

[DeHammer]

Wow, great comments & interesting perspectives.

 

I didn't know about silkspan so I'll have to look into that. I meant to ask about alternate sail materials & forgot, so thanks for mentioning that. 

 

I suspect for the models I have planned, I'll be venturing into the realm of sails, if for no other reason than to learn how to do them. On the other hand, the models I have picked out are more beginner class and don't have a lot of sails. I do want to build a 1:65 scale Bluenose model I purchased. Probably after I've tried a couple of beginner models. I can't imagine not having sails on the Bluenose; though I have seen models of it sails furled and it still looks great. I guess it might depend whether someone wants to depict 'Bluenose - the fishing ship' or 'Bluenose - the racing ship'. 

 

[allanyed]

As mentioned above, if you decide to go with sails, silk span or similar non-woven material is a great choice as cloth is totally unrealistic if you are interested in scale accuracy.  If scale is not a concern for you and you want to use cloth, try to use super high thread count (TC) cloth material.  Consider investing $7 and buying the sail making booklet by David Antscherl offered by SeaWatch Books.  I understand it is currently sold out but the owner Michael may be able to give you info on when a reprint will be available.  There are You Tube tutorials that give similar methods using SS.

Allan

 

[glbarlow]

I haven’t and won’t ever include a representation of sails on my models. Aside from scale and material problems they overwhelm the model, hiding or masking all the detailed work of both wood and rope. They become too much the focus of the model and overall not a good look. To me they look like one of those decoration type ships found in home accessory stores. 
 

That said, and has been noted, this is just my opinion of which there are many and varied on this forum. Ultimately it’s your model and your choice. 

[DeHammer]

All these suggestions of sail half furled has me wondering about other presentaion options... anyone ever built a ship in drydock undergoing extensive repairs? I don;t think I've seen any build log posts like that, but I'm sure someone must have done it. 

 

ooOOOoo... or a diorama of ship sinking or wrecked. Maybe if/when I massively screw up a model kit that'll be the time for a ship wreck diorama. LOL. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by DeHammer

[allanyed]

Hammer

Look at some contemporary models and paintings of ships in drydock for repairs.  They have no sails, often the upper masts are not in place, and sometimes the lower masts are unstepped depending on the amount and type of repairs.  You could also build the hull on the building slip.  There are many examples, both contemporary and modern, that you can see with a few minutes search.  Don't go by the well known Underhill model from 1950 that has the ship on the building ways and fully rigged.  Per RMG, that model was more of a lesson on building a model than accuracy of the the scene itself.  Then again, this may be what you would like. 😀https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-68469

Other ideas

 

Ship under repair drawing:

 

 

Example of a contemporary model on the ways, from Preble Hall at the academy.

Old Buckler's Hard diorama located at Buckler's Hard museum

 

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, DeHammer said:

All these suggestions of sail half furled has me wondering about other presentaion options... anyone ever built a ship in drydock undergoing extensive repairs? I don;t think I've seen any build log posts like that, but I'm sure someone must have done it. 

 

ooOOOoo... or a diorama of ship sinking or wrecked. Maybe if/when I massively screw up a model kit that'll be the time for a ship wreck diorama. LOL. 

Well...you've posed many good questions....many of which I have done myself....Sails(paper), for my 1/128 Great Republic,.... Diorama, my Ferreira(AKA Cutty Sark), .....Repair scene, Cutty Sark getting a new rudder,..... furled sails my current build Glory of the Seas.

 

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

To build a great model, I believe that the builder needs to have an artistic vision of what the the finished model is going to look like before he/she starts.  These can run the gamut from formal presentations with brass pedestals and a polished wood plinth to dioramas with the Ship in a natural setting.

 

IMHO, billowing sails do not enhance the appearance of a ship model in a formal presentation.  Furled sails are a better choice and “bare poles” are the best.  On the other hand, there are some very attractive models with full sails shown in a diorama setting.

 

Roger

 

 

[mtaylor]

Regarding the question...I'm of the opinion that it's your ship, your model and you are the owner/captain.   And add to that your vision of the final display will also be a part of the decision.  

 

In many ways, this is like deciding on a model....   Powered or sail?  Warship or merchant,  Size?   Wood or ????    Scratch or kit?    All are personal decisions.   Don't pick one that you're not comfortable with.

[druxey]

Love the Cutty model with her jury-rigged rudder! Great presentation.

[DeHammer]

3 hours ago, allanyed said:

Hammer

Look at some contemporary models and paintings of ships in drydock for repairs.  They have no sails, often the upper masts are not in place, and sometimes the lower masts are unstepped depending on the amount and type of repairs.  You could also build the hull on the building slip.  There are many examples, both contemporary and modern, that you can see with a few minutes search.  Don't go by the well known Underhill model from 1950 that has the ship on the building ways and fully rigged.  Per RMG, that model was more of a lesson on building a model than accuracy of the the scene itself.  Then again, this may be what you would like. 😀https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-68469

 

 

 

Wow, those are pretty cool dioramas. Love the ship undergoing hull repairs in the slip in your first link. 

 

 

[DeHammer]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Well...you've posed many good questions....many of which I have done myself....Sails(paper), for my 1/128 Great Republic,.... Diorama, my Ferreira(AKA Cutty Sark), .....Repair scene, Cutty Sark getting a new rudder,..... furled sails my current build Glory of the Seas.

 

 

 

 

Oh my, those are most impressive. I couldn't even imagine having the skill & discipline to create such beautiful works of art as those. I see what you mean about the variation of treatments... each one of them special in it's own right. I think perhaps that's what I should do with my beginner models... try both full sails and furled sails. Thanks for sharing those images of your work. 

 

 

[Louie da fly]

Well, now you know. A wide range of opinions regarding whether or not to show sails.

 

Keep in mind also that ships often had only a few sails set and the rest furled - and when a ship went into action it reduced its canvas to "fighting sails" - usually just topsails and headsails, such as in this painting of the Shannon vs Chesapeake.

 

 

And here's one of the whaling ship New Phoenix, hove to with just topsails, headsail  and driver set.

 

 

Steven

Edited June 11, 2022 by Louie da fly

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, DeHammer said:

 

Oh my, those are most impressive. I couldn't even imagine having the skill & discipline to create such beautiful works of art as those. I see what you mean about the variation of treatments... each one of them special in it's own right. I think perhaps that's what I should do with my beginner models... try both full sails and furled sails. Thanks for sharing those images of your work. 

 

 

Thanks…….I wanted to demonstrate different sail applications.  
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, Louie da fly said:

Well, now you know. A wide range of opinions regarding whether or not to show sails.

 

Keep in mind also that ships often had only a few sails set and the rest furled - and when a ship went into action it reduced its canvas to "fighting sails" - usually just topsails and headsails, such as in this painting of the Shannon vs Chesapeake.

 

 

And here's one of the whaling ship New Phoenix, hove to with just topsails, headsail  and driver set.

 

 

Steven

I built a CS following that sail arrangement too. 

[Dr PR]

Many excellent examples have been shown, illustrating the many ways sails may be handled and operational states ships may be in.

 

There is one other consideration - much of the running rigging is not aloft if the sail is not aloft (flying or furled). But the running rigging makes up a majority of the lines in the rigging. So if you don't put sails on the model the rigging can look pretty sparse.

 

An option is to place the running rigging aloft, but bring together the ends of the lines that normally attach to the sails. For example, the jib halliard (hoists the sail) can be brought down and hooked to the jib downhaul (pulls the sail down) so the lines are rigged and waiting for the sail to be brought up and attached. So the sail is not in the way of viewing your handiwork but most of the rigging is in place. A lot of the running rigging can be modeled this way.

 

It just depends on what you want to see. If sails and rigging are not your cup of tea you may want to just model the hull with minimal or no masts and rigging.

[allanyed]

3 hours ago, Dr PR said:

But the running rigging makes up a majority of the lines in the rigging. So if you don't put sails on the model the rigging can look pretty sparse.

Below are two contemporary models at Preble Hall.  All the running rigging is in place, but no sails.  There are many examples of this at Preble and in photos of rigged models sans sails on the RMG Collections site.  Take the virtual tour of Preble Hall and "walk" upstairs for more examples.    usna.edu/museum/3dtour.php which Brian Falke posted yesterday.  It took me a little time to get the hang of walking through doors, going upstairs, and maneuvering around each model to get views from bow, stern and sides, but well worth the effort.

 

Allan

[rwiederrich]

9 hours ago, Dr PR said:

Many excellent examples have been shown, illustrating the many ways sails may be handled and operational states ships may be in.

 

There is one other consideration - much of the running rigging is not aloft if the sail is not aloft (flying or furled). But the running rigging makes up a majority of the lines in the rigging. So if you don't put sails on the model the rigging can look pretty sparse.

 

An option is to place the running rigging aloft, but bring together the ends of the lines that normally attach to the sails. For example, the jib halliard (hoists the sail) can be brought down and hooked to the jib downhaul (pulls the sail down) so the lines are rigged and waiting for the sail to be brought up and attached. So the sail is not in the way of viewing your handiwork but most of the rigging is in place. A lot of the running rigging can be modeled this way.

 

It just depends on what you want to see. If sails and rigging are not your cup of tea you may want to just model the hull with minimal or no masts and rigging.

This idea is quite sound…… and was actually the case on sailing vessels.   When the sail was being drawn down, it’s rigging came down with it, such as stun sails and jibs.  On my Glory of the Seas I opted to retain the haul yard and down haul and simply connect their shackles.     You can see this on the mizzenmast top gallant stay.    All my sails are dressed tightly on their yards, as would be typical in port.   
 

Rob