HMS Macedonian 1812 Frigate by Jerry Todd - 1:36 scale - RADIO

[JerryTodd]

So, in another thread the subject of signal flags came up, renewing my hunt to figure out a signal in a painting of Constellation.  I never got an answer, but I did find a resolution and I drew up all the flags I've be using on the model in scale.  Well, what I do there I obviously must do here, so...

 

Here, in 1:36 scale are the flags that will go on the Macedonian.

 

The image may have been resized by the forum, but there it is just the same.

 

[JerryTodd]

Today, in 1812, Macedonian met the American frigate United States near Madeira in an action lasting just over an hour.  After overwhelming fire from the more heavily armed United States, Macedonian struck.  After two weeks of repairs at sea to preserve the ship, she was taken into American service where she served until she was decommissioned in 1828 and broken up.

 

The opening of the battle by Gardner.

 

 

 

See here for =>More Details about Macedonian

Edited October 25, 2014 by JerryTodd

[Thanasis]

Hi Jerry. Congratulation for your build, it's at least impressive...

For the historical accuracy allow me some notes..

The "Sun of Macedonia" actually  is the "Vergina Sun"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Sun

As about the "Macedonian sites" for the time being, there is only Macedonia as a territory at north Greece and a State named by the UN organization as (FYROM).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute

Thank you

Edited October 26, 2014 by Thanasis

[JerryTodd]

All the main deck gunports and windows are finally cut out.  The focs'l and quarterdeck port will be cut after the inside is framed up a bit.

 

 

 

Thought I had forgotten about this one, eh?

[Omega1234]

Nope,,but I'd forgotten about it! Marvellous work.

[mtaylor]

Nope.. didn't think that at all... we're a patient lot for the most part.    

[JerryTodd]

Looking through Lee's for something else and got to thinking about Macedonian's sticks, so I started drawing them full-size (for the model that is).

 

As many British friigates I've seen get built on this forum, I was surprised at how complicated figuring out Macedonian's rig has turned out to be.  I knew I didn't want the spar dimensions taken off in 1819, as she was completely re-rigged to American standards at that point.  I wanted British dimensions, but the standard spar dimensions for a 38 gun frigate turned out to be not all that standard.  after checking various sources within Lee's, as well as a couple of iterations of Steels, and a couple of other places - even trying to get an idea of proportion from the lovely in this NMM photo;

 

I eventually just opted to go with the proportions given in Appendix I of Lee's which is based on the main mast being the length of the gundeck plus the beam, divided by two (then divided by 36 to get my scale).  I built an Excel spreadsheet that figures it all out by plugging in those two numbers and the scale (the forum wouldn't let me attach it).

 

Again, using Lee's as a guide, to figure out the proportions for the period Macedonian was built (1810), I started drawing...

 

This is the front face and port profile of the main mast which is about 33.5" overall.

 

Ignore the tops, the size is right, but the front curve is not.

 

I just scanned the top shown in Lee's and scaled it to each mast.

 

 

[JerryTodd]

The cart I built in Constellation's logs will also be used for Macedonian, here's a little artist's rendering...

[JerryTodd]

Rough cut channels and laying out the quarter galleries.

 

 

[JerryTodd]

Framing out the quarter galleries

 

 

They'll be sheathed in 1/32" plywood

 

[JerryTodd]

Sheathing commences on the starboard quarter gallery.  Don't worry, I have cardstock patterns for everything so I can duplicate all this on the other side. 

 

 

 

[PamW]

Ooooh......yer my new best friend.....I would like to do one of these as well in 1/24 full framed and detailed to go along with the United states in an enormous diarama of the final minutes of the battle...complete with smashed masts and all battle damage.

 

And yes I am certifiably nuts...that's been established...

Wink,

 

 

Pamela

Edited November 2, 2016 by PamW

[JerryTodd]

Maybe not in 1:24, but your diorama's been built. 

 

 

 

 

I'm working in 1:36, I don't have a vehicle I could fit a 1:24th scale version into.  The fellow that printed the masters for my guns is building one of the SC&H Cruiser class brigs as the Scorpion, and intends to build another Lively class frigate, the Spartan, in 1:24 scale.  That will have a 77 inch hull compared to my 59 inch hull.

 

Scorpion in her first in the water test

 

Back to Macedonian...

 

I really want to get some paint on this girl before I take her down to the creek for her first dip, but I need to get molding and such on her first.

 

I save old utility knife blades just for making molding scrapers.  This one I made today with two patterns.

 

The molding was applied along the sheer-line, with gaps for the channels.  There's another line of molding above that.  Here the channels are friction fit and sanded to fit tight against the hull.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by JerryTodd

[dgbot]

Terry, Since this model will be taking a dip what are you going to use for ballast and a false keel>  That model might be a litle topheavy.

David B

[Nirvana]

Jerry,

It would be a shame installing false keel, but maybe the only option. Or are you able to fill the hull with lead ballast enough to prevent any "maiden voyage accident".

[JerryTodd]

There's whole books on hydro-statics and stability, but to put it as simply as possible, on a scale model, internal ballast is not enough, as this fellow learned:

 

 

You simple can't get the center of gravity low enough within the hull.  The more weight you add, the higher the CG moves as you're stacking weight up inside.

 

Because Macedonian and Constellation have long flat-ish keels, the best form of external ballast is a bar or tube.  I use a tube and would gladly use a lead bar instead if I could gather the gumption to cast such a beast. 

 

Some folks use fins.  A fin moves the weight further down, like moving the skinny kid further from the balance-point to balance the fat kid on the other end of the see-saw.

Here's Stad Amsterdam a model comparable in size to mine.  She uses a fin keel that you can see being installed in this video.

https://youtu.be/Yj3EBwU6Elo?t=152

If you watch her sailing you see she still heels way over despite the fin; because she's showing too much sail in what are basically scale storm conditions.  When it's blowing 20+, you're pushing into scale hurricane winds!

 

Fins are deep.  In that video they're launching at a bulkhead, and it takes two people to do the job.  I'm launching most of the time at a shoreline or ramp.  With a fin like that I'd have to wade out to water deep enough to launch the model.

 

By using a ballast tube, my launch-cart is basically a boat trailer and I hardly have to get into a foot of water to launch, as you can see at the beginning and end of my video...  I can also launch and retrieve all by myself, without help.

 

Whatever sort of external ballast used, there's one common feature that sells it hands-down; it's removable.  By unscrewing two threaded rods, I can easily detach the model from 42 pounds of ballast.  I can lift the model and move it around  alone, and safer for me and the model.  Constellation still needs about 15 pounds of ballast added internally to get her to her waterline and trim her or she sits about 2 inches too high.

 

I also have easily removable t'gallants and royals, the courses can be bunted up, and the model can essentially be under tops'ls and jib in a few minutes if the wind's too much for her plain sail suit.

Edited November 3, 2016 by JerryTodd

[Omega1234]

Hi Jerry

 

Without a doubt, one of life's simple pleasures is watching your own creation setting sail and coming to life on the water.

 

She looks beautiful and truly a wonderful sight to behold.

 

You must be very happy.

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

[JerryTodd]

Please, Omega, try not to be so critical of my work - you'll give me a complex. 

 

Assembling the port side gallery, and moldings.  I also rough cut those little channels for the t'gallanet/royal back-stays.

The epoxy on the port-side wale set kind of lumpy and is gonna take some major sanding effort, like belt-sander effort.

 

[JerryTodd]

The port side is caught up with the starboard side now, and I did a LOT of sanding of the clumpy epoxy on the port side.  There's some filling to do, and the rest of the quarter galleries to do.  I also need to notch the channels before I permanently install them.  Still more to do, but I'm much closer to getting some paint on her.

 

 

[JerryTodd]

To make Macedonian's lower masts, I looked at various sources.  This forum, Internet searches, period pieces like Steel's.  Photos of models.  But while I could see the end product, it was hard for me to visualize what was going on, or how it got to that point.  Lee's Masting and Rigging was, in some ways, the clearest and easiest to comprehend; my problem with Lee's is trying to pick MY time-frame from the stew of data he presents.  Often only parts of things change, so you have to piece it together; checks from 1800-1816, hounds from 1770-1820, rubbing paunch from 1810-, brains from Abby Normal, and that sort of thing.

 

For my 1812ish frigate it seems, if I interpret all this correctly, The mast can be a single piece with cheeks and rubbing paunch (used to be the front fish) added on.  It tapers from the deck to the top end.  From the top of the cheeks/hounds down, it's round except it's left flat on the sides where the cheeks attach.  The cheeks are rounded themselves to nearly blend into the mast, but there's a bit of a step or channel formed so they don't taper down to nothing at the sides.  The real hounds are a separate piece scarfed onto the cheeks.  I found it better to actually do this so they weren't in the way or getting damaged.  Lee's gives the proportions of these parts; for instance, the rubbing paunch is 1/3 the width of the mast.

 

I didn't put any taper in the space between decks, and the bury below the gundeck is 8-sided.  After shaping the core of the mast, I used strips of copper tape left-over from Constellation's bottom to make the banding.  Every-other band where the cheeks are is under them and need to go on before the cheeks.

 

It's not as clean and simple as Constellation's 1850's mast and spars, but it's not as complicated as it first appears.

 

My drawing of how I'm constructing Macedonian's masts.  The side views don't show the rubbing paunch.

 

 

Mainmast of HMS Impregnable showing cheek pieces and rubbing paunch.  There's filler blocks next to the cheeks for the banding that goes over the them - I don't see this for my 1810-1812 period.

 

 

Mizzen tapered

 

Fore tapered

 

Mizzen cheeks glued on

 

Mizzen banding over cheeks applied, and rubbing paunch attached.

 

Upper part of fore mast shaped and banding applied.  Port-side cheek piece is cut and shaped.

[Jim Lad]

I don't know how I'vbe missed your log all this time, Jerry.  She looks like she'll be another of your masterpieces.

 

John

[JerryTodd]

Hi Jim, thank you for the kind words.  Did you check out the Constellation log?  She got wet again, but this time she really sailed, no bumping the bottom in a pool - it was great!

 

Still making boards into sticks on this one.  I'm dyin to get Mac painted and in the water.

 

 

With Pride photo-bombing in the back.

[JerryTodd]

Ok, back in the shop and got the main mast 8 sided; round; where it needs to be roud; banded under the cheeks; cheeks made, shaped, and affixed; banding over the cheeks applied, all clamped up; and what looks more like a Polynesian war club than a mast is waiting for the glue to fully set.  The main and fore need rubbing paunches, and all three need their tenons cut top and bottom.

 

 

 

[JerryTodd]

A 3D model of the servo tray used in Macedonian, Constellation, and any other square-rigger I build, and a bit of how it works and the reasoning behind it.

 

 

Reasoning #1; to control the sails of the model as realistically, but as mechanically simply as possible.  This system, I think, is as reliable and maintainable as I can manage, and can be adapted to almost any 1:48 scale or larger square-rigger without need of machining tools; 3D printers; laser cutters, special skills, talent, looks, etc.  (It would fit in smaller scale models, but may require smaller servos which may require hacking regular servos into winches and so forth, thus increasing the complexity for some folks.)

 

The wooden disks are the winch drums for the braces each on it's own HiTec HS785HB winch servo.

 

The right one (your right) is the main/mizzen drum, the left one is the fore.  These control the tops'l yards on their respective masts.  Two drums for each yard, one takes up as the other pays out.  The servo and drum slide fore-n-aft on rods with compression springs to maintain tension on the braces so they don't fall off their drums and tangle.  Adjustment of the braces is done at the other end where they anchor in the rig.  It's not practical to try to adjust them at the winches.

 

The large servo is a HiTec HS815BB "Mega sail-arm" servo with a "servo-stretcher" installed to give it a full 180° swing.  This servo controls the driver sheet directly on it's own (white) arm, and the heads'l sheets on a pair of (red) arms mounted port and starboard.  The red arms are not connected to the servo and may move freely.  One or the other is pushed by the servo's arm to sheet the heads'ls.  As shown, the heads'ls are sheeted all the way in on the port side AND the driver is sheeted all the way in as well.  The starboard heads'l sheets are loose.

 

Only a single heads'l sheet per side is shown, but typically there are three p/s pairs.  The sheets come from the heads'ls forward (left), pass through a fair-lead on the post shown at the far left of the tray, run to a sheave in the end of the the arm on that side and back to the post.  It then leads down to an anchor on the tray where it can be adjusted as needed.  I'm thinking of using a portion of one of these to anchor the sheets on the tray:

 

The whole tray is held on the "mechanical deck" inside the model by three screws, and can be removed through the main hatch as a unit if need be.  No modifications have to be made to any servo, there-by not voiding any warranties, etc.

 

Sailing Constellation has shown that control of only the tops'l yards is sufficient so long as all the squares are sheeted snug; and works better than controlling the course yards as control is imparted to the center of the stack of sails, rather than near the bottom.

 

 

 

and click the pic for another video...

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by JerryTodd

[Louie da fly]

Very very interesting. I've occasionally thought about RC but decided it was all too complicated. Maybe I'll change my mind after this.

 

By the way, do you have any problems with the control cords chafing? They seem to be going through a couple of holes cut in metal plate immediately after they leave the spool.

 

Am I right in thinking that the ship is controlled completely by the sails without the rudder?

 

Steven

Edited November 16, 2016 by Louie da fly

[JerryTodd]

Someone was paying attention 

 

The holes in the fair-lead bitt on Constellation are as polished as I can get them, but you're right, it's still not ideal.  I recently cut an oversized cutting board made of that white Teflon like plastic, in two, and wound up with a 1/2" square strip from the center; wonder how that happened?  I'm going to replace the bar with a portion of that strip.

 

All my rigging will be walked from Dacron sail thread (polyester).  Stranded synthetic line actually moves better through fair-leads than natural fiber line, non-stranded, or braided line.  I think the strands make for less surface contact.  Additionally, anywhere the line has to turn a corner tighter than 90°, there will be a functional block.  In setting up Constellation's braces for that last sail I was using some cotton stuff I happened to have on hand, and there was too much friction for it to function, it was scraping lint off at every fair-lead, and you could hear the winch straining.  I walked up the line in the picture and it was like butter.  The videos were done with the Dacron line.

 

 

Originally I was going to control the fore and main course yard braces, AND the three tops'l yard braces.  Chafing and friction was why I reduced that to just the three tops'l yards.

[Timmo]

A very helpful vid there Gerry. That brace moves very smoothly.

I'm not far off mast installation and having to think about such things so I'd be very keen to think only one active set of braces per mast would do the job rather than having multiple drums etc.

Would I be right in thinking if it'll work for a larger three master vessel like yours it'll work well for the Harrier brig with the same servos?

[JerryTodd]

These are the same servos the fellas with the 1:24 scale SC&H Cruizer brigs and Surprise models are using, including the rudder servo.  You should have no problems with the ability of the servos to handle your rig.  The compression springs on the slides are something to think about.  They are compressed most when the yards are square.  If they are too strong they can bow, or even break the yard, not to mention putting a lot of load on the winch.  Since braces tend to anchor on standing rigging, you'll see some pulling there as well.  The springs only need to be strong enough to maintain tension - that tension keeps the brace on it's drum.

 

I judged the length of travel for the winches by eye, and it's greater than it needs to be.  Someone with a better mind for geometry and mathematics, or just a bit more trail-and-error than I invested, could probably determine a more precise length for the servo's travel and save some space in the set-up.  I think I could lop off almost an inch in my case, and probably will on Macedonian's set-up.  The extra length doesn't harm anything, but where space is an issue, it can matter.

 

The "Mega-Sail-Arm" is a tall servo, and that may be an issue for you.  I scaled a drawing of Epervier's lines to 1:36 and laid them over my Pride of Baltimore's 1:20 lines and with much less drag to your keel, you should have more head-room over more of the interior than Pride does.  ie: You should have no problem with that sail-arm servo's height, as I have two of them in Pride.

 

 

If you do go that route to control your fore-n-afts, get a "servo-stretcher" from Servo City or get a sail-arm set up for full 180° travel.  You'll want it to be able to sheet properly out off-the-wind.  Some transmitters, BTW,  can program a channel in the same way.  The Stretcher is great, it lets you set the center position and the amount of travel to either side all separately.

Edited November 27, 2016 by JerryTodd

[JerryTodd]

Got 2 yards of gray Supplex from a different supplier than usual.  It was much cheaper than their normal price; a remnant maybe?  It seemed a little dark, but not so bad in the photo, for the sails of a British frigate.

[JerryTodd]

Since May the job has kept me away from my hobbies, or just too worn out to get anything done - I'm too old for this $#!+.

But it has allowed me to splurge a little on something for myself, in the form of a 3D printer.  I looked around for a long time, trying to make heads or  tails of all the constantly changing stuff out there.

I decided to go with a resin vat type because it offered better quality, more detailed prints than the filament types, and I'm not concerned with printing large items, but mostly parts for models.

I got an Elegoo Mars for under $250 on Amazon after a few weeks of research narrowing it down.  YouTube is chock full of reviews for this, and other printers of this type.

 

My first print on the machine were 9 more carronades from the file the original set I had printed in 2012 came from, supplied by Tim Bowman who also sent me files for the 18 pounder Blomefields, carriages, and slides.  You can't see the print in progress until near the end - and then only if it's a long enough item - to see how things are going, so it's a pretty nerve-racking process, especially the first time.  Even when they're done they're covered in resin, hiding any details.  After cleaning them in alcohol I was pleased as punch to find they were every bit as good as the 2012 prints.

 

The slides didn't come out as well.  One of the 6 I printed failed to release and looked like a Star Trek transporter accident, the other five were great on top, but the underside looked somewhat melted.  I can fix them, so they're usable, but I need to learn more to get them to come out right.

I built a wheel in 3D modeling software for a 4 foot RC schooner from scratch, but it's printing too thin to be of use, and it's underside isn't right, just like the carronade slides.  While I fiddle with getting this wheel right, I'm working on the 3D models for <i>Constellation's</i> trail-boards, and Mac's figurehead.