HMS Winchelsea by jfhealey - fully rigged version

[jfhealey]

I've had two goes at the Winchelsea. I realised not long into the first build that the model was far too complex for someone of my limited experience and skill level so I gave up to start again. W2 was a much better effort but there were things I was unhappy with and  I ( I suspect many of us) can get disproportionately bugged by things I look at and think: if I did that again I'd do it better. So I took a break and made Syren's lovely cutter Cheerful in boxwood from Hobbymill EU and I'm very pleased with it too.

 

I thought I might have a go at a scratch build but I think that's beyond me. Apart from any other failings I simply don't have the knowledge. What I want to build though is a fully rigged ship. My own view - lots won't share it - is that rigging really sets off a model beautifully. So I've decided to have a go at a fully rigged Winchelsea. Scratch building the masts seems reasonably achievable and within my compass. And having had two as it turns out dummy runs at Winchelsea I'm reasonably confident I can make a decent effort this time.

 

So here goes.

 

I decided to start with the masts on the footing that if I can't get those right the project will go nowhere. I'm not strung up on historical accuracy (though I would welcome observations). I'm using a combination of Shipyard Model HMS Enterprize and Anatomy of a Ship HMS Diana plans with Herbert/Antscherl books for methodology.

 

I started with the crosstrees for the main mast. Here are parts 1-4, again in boxwood from Hobbymill EU.. 

And then the tops.

I made the mizzen mast first. Here it is (with the bowsprit).

This is the mizzen top more or less complete thogh I wonder if I should file down the radating battens towards the centre a bit more yet. The top is not glued to the crosstrees and the cap is not finished.

 

And here the bowsprit. Cutting the bowsprit from square section to this stage took most of of a full day.

And here trying the bowsprit for size (although not yet cut to length) on W2. I'm also having a bit of a go - experimenting really - at the ship's boats. That is the pinnace sitting midships.

 

 

I have cut out and assembled all the frames with sockets to take the masts. This is where I am at the moment. The masts of course are not glued in nor are the tops glued to the crosstrees or topmasts glued.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All the best everyone

Fred

 

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

Well, it certainly looks like you are well on your way to success! Beautifully done, clean, crisp work. It looks perfect, 

[Saburo]

Following with interest and your neat workmanship is admirable Fred.

 

      Bill

[Thistle17]

You are a brave and determined heart! I too gave up on my first build of Winchelsea after too many compromises. I started with my own frames, strongback etc and although relatively sucessful error started to creep in and things went slowly downhill from there. I am poised to start again but your restart is impressive. I will surely follow your journey! Joe

Edited July 27, 2023 by Thistle17

[Gregory]

6 hours ago, jfhealey said:

The masts of course are not glued in nor are the tops glued to the crosstrees or topmasts glued.

Of course not.  They wouldn't have been on the actual ship.😁

 

Very nice work!

Edited July 26, 2023 by Gregory

[glbarlow]

Very ambitious and very well done.  This will look great on a completed Winchelsea. Impressive!

[scrubbyj427]

Nice to see you back at it Fred! Looking forward to following this, It looks like you’re off to a great start. Bet that mast is pretty tall.

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

oh yes wow. wonderful outcome. i myself am contemplating to rig winchelsea, surely this will become my prototype guide. Thank you for doing it and sharing. Vlad.  

[Matt D]

It looks like you're off to an excellent start, Fred!  I'm looking forward to seeing your progress on the rigging.  I'm also really interested in seeing more of your ship's boats.  

[FrankWouts]

Beautiful start and very well executed. 
Frank.

Edited July 31, 2023 by FrankWouts

[jfhealey]

Thanks chaps! I appreciate your kind words and likes. 

 

Here are some pictures of the present state of play - Winnie in her underwear alongside her better dressed sister. I've nearly finished chapter 1 with a bit of chapter 4 thrown in. I'm waiting on Hobbymill Eu for the Winchelsea boxwood package including sheets to attempt  - I think it may be on the edge of my skill level - the stem and keel parts. I have the Syren parts to trace from but it looks like a tricky cutting out job to me. Still, nothing ventured....

 

I guess infilling with balsa has both its advocates and dis-approvers. I want to give myself the very best chance of a successful planking and this seems the best way at least for me. It also makes the rather tiresome task of fairing both inboard and out a lot easier and I hope more accurate given that I'm working from home cut frames.

 

Incidentally the bowsprit is housed in a little box. I think I will fully plank the foc'sle (and quaterdeck) so nothing forward of the manger (as the little box is) can be seen. If I change my mind I can easily remove it. 

 

The cooker has been bought on board so the lads can have a cup of tea. In England THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

 

All the best everyone.

Fred

 

PS. Sorry about the quality of the pictures. I blame the camera! 

 

 

 

 

[jfhealey]

I visited the Historic dockyard at Portsmouth a couple of weeks ago. 

 

The Mary Rose exhibition is breathtaking. Thousands of artifacts beautifully and imaginatively displayed alongside more or less the whole starboard side of the ship. Well worth a visit if you are ever in the area (allow not less than 2 days).

 

In sharp contrast HMS Victory is looking sorry for itself both because of its neglected state and because its dry dock sits, or appears to sit, in the middle of a sea of concrete (in contrast to, say, the SS Great Britain in Bristol, also in a dry dock, but alongside and very much connected visually to the river). Still, it is undergoing a long overdue and much needed refit.

It seems a shame we can find £6 billion for these two monsters but can't find the money to do justice to this wonderful ship.

 

 

I've just had a thought: this log is for Winchelsea postings only so please fell free, moderators, to remove this post.

Fred

 

 

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

Beautiful work Fred! Excellent idea with the balsa and your fairing looks really good from here. As Chuck Pointed out early on, it’s very important to get those frames all faired up to the right thickness. This should be a great build.

 

You should be able to contain your bowsprit in the structure that comes down from the bitts, this should allow you to partially plank the forecastle deck.

i have not looked at the drawings for Winnie but I’m betting it’s very similar to a 4th rate. There would obviously be structure where the end of the bowsprit would fit into.

[jfhealey]

Thanks JJ. I assume the picture above is from your Portland. I, and I suspect many others, are looking forward to your next update.

 

[scrubbyj427]

6 hours ago, jfhealey said:

Thanks JJ. I assume the picture above is from your Portland. I, and I suspect many others, are looking forward to your next update.

 

Hi Fred,

Yes it is, it needs some revising as I’ve learned more since I modeled the bowsprit, but you get the idea. Winnie should be very similar, I’m sure Chuck knows way more. 

Im flying home to begin cutting the first part of the model. I’ll be assembling two prototypes and will be posting updates very soon. Stay tuned!

[jfhealey]

10 hours ago, scrubbyj427 said:

Stay tuned!

I will!

Chuck's Speedwell and your Portland are surely the most exiting projects around (with an honourable mention to Chris Watton who produces fantastic kits but resolutely only in 1/64th).

[ssarchy08]

I too will be watching this thread with great interest as I have just started my journey on the Winchelsea Group Build.

 

Quick question Where did you find the rigging drawings for Winchelsea?

 

Great job on your project though, awesome.

 

Belay my last, information found

 

Steve 

Edited August 30, 2023 by ssarchy08

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

As kits go, Winchelsea is up there among the finest.  It deserves to have rigging and sails.  For me, a ship is incomplete without them.

[jfhealey]

Thanks chaps for the replies and likes. Here is an update on my Winchelsea build.

 

I started planking the hull. I left off the capping rail at the quaterdeck figuring I could file the sheer to fit the planking rather than the other way around. I also didn't like having to look for so long at the plywood bulkhead ends in the waist so I filed that down by a couple of mill. and capped it. The first pictures show the planking coming up to the waist and the waist filed down ready to cap and recieve the next plank. I have not worried about where the butt ends fall. This is only the first layer of wales of course. 

Here is the stem. I cut it using my Proxxon MS70 mill - absolutely invaluable -  and a very cheap oscillating sander: noisy as hell but does a job. I bought (and will continue to buy) the Syren parts and found it a great help to have the Syren part in my hand as I made the equivalent in boxwood. Much easier the pasting paper.

 

I found I would have a small but noticeable gap around where the stem meets the bollard timbers so I put a little filler piece in as shown below.

 

Here are some test bollard timbers made on the mill and waiting for the addition of a small piece to make wider the timbers below the bowsprit hole.

 

And here they are fitted and the bowsprot hole filed out. I bevelled them as much as I dared/could but even so I have a small ledge at the foot. I can live with it.

The planking up to the sheer mid ships and the Syren hance pieces fitted. The plan is to make as many parts as I possibly can and use the Syren parts only where painted or covered over - as with the hance pieces.

The gunport cut outs on my earlier attempt at Winnie were not great for two resons. First I struggled to maintain a consistent 1/32 spacing around the inner stops (I'm not sure what they are properly called). Secondly, in my efforts to ensure the planking was properly stuck down, I squidged glue out marring the crispness of the finish. Here I have cut the gunports to the outside dimension and will add crimson painted liners later.

 

Here I'm placing a batton two planks below the lowest wale. I have a fear of not getting a smooth run from the drop plank to its immediate neighbour going aft and this batton, I hope, will give me the best chance of a good result. 

This picture rather distorts the run of the plankin at the foc'sle. It looks much better in the flesh.

 

I offered up the Syren drop plank. Its not a great fit. I think that's because I cut my own bulkheads and then obscured the Syren planking marks  with bevelling the bulkheads and putting in all that balsa wood. I did my best with careful tick strips to re-instate them but some discrepancy was bound to creep in.

 

So I cut a card template.

 

And this is where I am now.

All the best everyone

Fred

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[glbarlow]

Well done Fred, it's looking great.

[scrubbyj427]

Nice to see you back at it Fred, she’s looking really nice.
 

You may want To check the angle of your bollard Timbers or perhaps it’s the photos that could throwing me off. The mill work looks nice either way though.

JJ

[jfhealey]

Thanks Glenn and JJ and for the likes.  I've glued in the bollard timbers JJ. I know they are not bevelled quite enough but they look OK on the model.

 

Here is a bit of an update  in pictures.

 

I completed the firrst two belts below the wales. The flow of the planking seems fine to me and there are no dips ( the one just below the wales midships easily sanded out) or  high spots but some of the seams could have been tighter. 

 

I don't have a  table saw so cuting the keel components was done with the scorll saw and then the Proxxon mill. A little slow but does the job.

 

Here is the boxing joint.

It came out pretty well to my ever optimistic eyes.

 

So on to the lowest belt.

 

I intend to "treenail" the hull. I used a 0.6mm drill and then pushed a sharp pencil into the hole before using a woodfiller. I'm sure there are better ways not least because wood filler, no matter how carefully applied, tends to fill and emphasise any gaps in the between planks seems - see the picture below. If I had a Byrnes draw plate perhaps I'd have a go at the real deal.

 

I've no idea how many vertical "lines" of treenails there should be. I think I will add one more line between those presently existing - but I will make my mind up when the planking is finished and I have a better overall view.

 

Thank you for looking by.

 

All the best and very best wishes to you all for Christmas and the New Year.

 

Fred

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chuck]

That is looking excellent!!!   Have a great holiday and new year!!!

[scrubbyj427]

Looking really good Fred, I think once you complete your planking and give it a nice block sanding it will look perfect. The tree nails are a very nice touch and a ton of work. Looking forward to your next update.

 

JJ

[glbarlow]

Props for the tree nails, I wouldn’t even do that on my Cheerful. I’m sure it will look great. 

[FrankWouts]

Very nicely done and very courageous with those treenails and the right moment to start that…respect…

Maybe I’ll dare doing that on my next build.

Hat off!

Merry Christmas Fred!

Frank.

[Trussben]

As for your question

 

On 12/19/2023 at 2:15 PM, jfhealey said:

I've no idea how many vertical "lines" of treenails there should be.

 

According to "Steel" and the "Shipbuilders repository" table of scantlings, a 32gun frigate of the time would have had 11 1/2" wide framing,  with a room and space of 27 3/4"

 

So you would have a line of treenails in a row with a gap between them of just under 2.5" ( 11.5 + 11.5 + 2.375 + 2.375 = 27.75 ).

 

On my cutaway section on my Winnie I simplified that to 11" frames with 3" gaps inbetween. Also if you look on the Plans - Chuck showed a section midships above the wales with a treenail pattern that you could just copy.

 

Hope that helps - that would be a lot of treenails to make!

Edited January 2 by Trussben

[westwood]

Fred, your work looks great!

I admire that you have a taste for nailing as well.
But it will be a great improvement.

Best wishes

[jfhealey]

Thank you gentlemen for your replies and likes.

 

Trussben - thank you for your post. I had forgotten the plans illustrate the treenailing. My "workshop" isn't big enough to keep the plans unrolled so these things can get overlooked. I used a dark pencil and woodfiller for the treenailing so far - all below the wales. Im not sure about it (and I may yet paint the hull). I'm going to order a drawplate and see how I get on doing a proper job on some scrap before I decide how to go forward.

 

In the meantime I have finished planking the hull. It's OK. Some of the seams could have been tighter but otherwise I'm pretty happy  with it.

 

I intend to have a go at painting the figures and fancy scrolls rather than using the printed friezes. If I fall short of what I hope to achieve I can always stick the friezes on - but at least I will have had a go. In readiness I have given the topsides a first coat of Prussian Blue.

 

The transom went on with no alarms or difficulties. The windows fit perfectly with no adjustment - so thats all a relief.

 

 

 

 

I have finished the shells for the QGs. I cut the black strake/wale (just in front of the pie shaped piece) rather than try to rebate the outer shell of the QG - which is a bit of a tricky bit without the additional difficulty of trying to rebate it.

Here is the result. All went very smoothly on both sids happily.

 

The internal planking is all but done. I'll finish that today and then its red paint time and starting the deck planking. Deck planking let down my last attempt at Winnie so I shall take special care and hopefully, bringing to bear the learning and experience of my last go, I shall make a better job of it.

 

 

Al the best

Fred

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chuck]

Looking really good…well done.