NMBROOK Posted August 16, 2015 Share #151 Posted August 16, 2015 Good to see you back on your build Jason but sorry to see the rework,however it happens to us all.With something like this,I have walked away and come back to resolve it later. Definitely something to do with a cool head. Kind Regards Nigel Old Collingwood, Beef Wellington, JesseLee and 1 other 4 Quote Currently working on Royal Caroline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_smits Posted August 16, 2015 Share #152 Posted August 16, 2015 Looking really good Jason. I think we've all discovered errors after the fact. I've just found out I forgot to add the top gallant stays to main and fore masts and now I have to sneak them in amongst the running rigging..... Beef Wellington, cog and mtaylor 3 Quote Jim-----Current builds:HMS SnakeHMS HoodMechanical Solar SystemCompleted builds:HMS Ballahoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmo Posted August 18, 2015 Share #153 Posted August 18, 2015 You'll never regret a rework Jason. Nice tidy fix there. Beef Wellington, mort stoll and mtaylor 3 Quote Current build Enterprise class 28-gun frigate 1774 - scratchbuild 1:36 RC Completed builds Cruizer class brig - scratchbuild 1:36 RC HM Bomb Vessel Granado - Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne - Caldercraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Ensign Posted August 18, 2015 Share #154 Posted August 18, 2015 Enjoyed catching up on your build Jason, you're making excellent progress on a complex build, the hull is starting to look very nice. B.E. Beef Wellington and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Build: HMS Indefatigable-1794-by-blue-ensign-vanguard-models-164-scale Medway-longboat-1742-by-blue-ensign-½”-scale Completed builds: HMS Sphinx 1775 by Blue Ensign. 1:64 scale - Vanguard Models Queen-Anne-Royal-Barge-circa-1700-by-Blue-Ensign Fifie fishing boat Lady Eleanor Muirneag-1903-–-a-scottish-zulu-fishing-boat-164-scale-based-on-the-vanguard-models-zulu-kit/ HM Cutter Alert 1777 HM Cutter Cheerful 1806 18th-century-English-longboat-by-Blue-Ensign-ms-148-scale/ finished 18thc English Pinnace by Blue Ensign-Model-Shipways-1:24 scale/ finished HMS-Pegasus-by-Blue-Ensign-finished-Victory-Models-1:64-scale/ Heller Seventy-four 1:150 scale - modified Le Superbe/Le Glorieux kit after Boudriot, waterline setting with sails. The schooner Pickle, Jotika pob kit 1:64 scale, my interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share #155 Posted August 20, 2015 Cheers gents...character building isn't it? Carl - luckily its only one port per side that's out of position, even so, its quite a bit of work to fill the hole solidly and then reline and I've been leaving glue plenty of time to dry as I go. I'll leave the explanation of how I noticed it to a future post as that is a another story in its own right. cog 1 Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted August 20, 2015 Share #156 Posted August 20, 2015 Rebuilds not only build character, but also vocabulary... although I'm not sure that swearing like a sailor is called vocabulary by polite society. :P cog and JesseLee 2 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted August 20, 2015 Share #157 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Glad to hear Jasson, still ... not much fun as a surprise ... Mark, In that case, the wife must be scared stiff ... or used to verbal abuse ... Edited August 20, 2015 by cog mtaylor 1 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share #158 Posted August 22, 2015 Real quick update, the patchwork has been materially completed, think this turned out OK as it will be in an area that will be more visible. Lime strip was used to back against the interior and exterior existing planking to provide a solid base for the patch planks. On the interior, I tried to match the run of the planks to blend it in as much as possible. Next will be (lots of) tidying of paintwork and some more coats of poly on the deck... Exterior... Interior pre- and post- a few coats of paint. cog, egkb, JesseLee and 7 others 10 Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted August 22, 2015 Share #159 Posted August 22, 2015 Wizardry, Jason ... a magnificent job!!! Beef Wellington and mtaylor 2 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share #160 Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) Moving on to adding some spirketting. I just love the look of the NMM Minerva model, something that is increasingly influencing where I think I want to go with this model. One of the features is the contrasting red spirketting against yellow quickwork which I'm looking to replicate here. The primary challenge is that the all the gunport sills should be exactly the same height from the deck - although most are very close, there is a variance of no more than 0.5mm across the range, its enough to present some problems as the contrasting colours emphasize errors. 'Top and butt' Planks were mass produced slightly larger than needed by gluing a number of planks together and sanding to shape and then separating with IPA. These were then individually tweeked to ensure the top of the top plank meets the lower sill and the sweep ports. Although sadly not much of this will be seen, its a good opportunity to build some confidence and safely practice a skill while still making progress. Lots of touchup still needed. Edited August 26, 2015 by Beef Wellington maddog33, usedtosail, mtaylor and 13 others 16 Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share #161 Posted August 30, 2015 A Sternpost question... Not so much an update as a "request for thoughts". Looking to glue the lower counter template I made earlier in place, but something was not quite looking right comparing to the AOTS. Then it struck me, the thickness of the sternpost should be considerably thicker (approx. 60% by my best approximation) near the top) than the thickness of the keel former (see red lines on picture below). This seems common structural feature so am curious how others have approached this and thoughts on this topic. Options seem obvious, but is the second option really worth the effort ? Very interested in the thoughts and conclusions reached by others. I'm leaning to option 1 as I think option 2 could just be too involved. Status quo, stick with the 5mm width and taper toward the bottom. By far the least effort, but not sure whether this will look too skinny. A rudder coat could mask this as well. Bulk up the stern post accordingly. This would require much additional adjustment to the first planking to ensure second layer sits correctly to new termination, and would also require the rudder to be similarly beefed up. Kevin, jwvolz, Landlubber Mike and 4 others 7 Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted August 30, 2015 Share #162 Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Jason, the second option would not necessarly mean an additional change in the first planking ... you do need a rabbet for that second layer ... you could use shavings to thicken the planking near the sternpost Cheers, Edited August 30, 2015 by cog mtaylor and Beef Wellington 2 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBROOK Posted August 30, 2015 Share #163 Posted August 30, 2015 An excellent rework and some super clean and neat work Jason Few kits do depict the taper on the sternpost,but it is quite a prominent feature on many vessels. if you are chasing authenticity.In actual fact,the keel should actually taper on most vessels over roughly the first and last third.Personally I would fit the tapered sternpost but not mess with the keel provided it is the correct width at the stern. Kind Regards Nigel mtaylor 1 Quote Currently working on Royal Caroline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share #164 Posted August 30, 2015 Carl - you're right, I didn't say it well, I'd probably need to add additional planking to the already laid first planking - it would mean adding quite a bit of thickness, maybe 1.5-2mm per side to the 5mm thickness already present. Few kits do depict the taper on the sternpost,but it is quite a prominent feature on many vessels. if you are chasing authenticity.In actual fact,the keel should actually taper on most vessels over roughly the first and last third.Personally I would fit the tapered sternpost but not mess with the keel provided it is the correct width at the stern. Kind Regards Nigel Nigel, there is the rub, there is no provided sternpost. The design of the kit is such that the rear of the plywood keel former IS the sternpost, which is why I had originally inserted the boxwood portion where the sternpost would be visible. The keel is 5mm thick, and I'm estimating from the AOTS diagrams that it should be approx. 8-9mm at the top which seems quite a significant difference, and diminishes to approx. 3mm at the base. Of course the rudder should match this, and this also comes in 5mm sheet. I'd also need to rebuild the rudder in boxwood somehow, I only have a 5mm thick sheet of that. Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted August 30, 2015 Share #165 Posted August 30, 2015 You are going to needsome thicker wood, Jason ... or live with the straight sternpost, which - knowing you - won't do ... Beef Wellington 1 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBROOK Posted August 30, 2015 Share #166 Posted August 30, 2015 I am with Carl Jason,I don't think you will be happy unless you make the changes to the sternpost.I think you have two choices,either buy some boxwood large enough or laminate two pieces of the 5mm. Kind Regards Nigel mtaylor and Beef Wellington 2 Quote Currently working on Royal Caroline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share #167 Posted August 31, 2015 You guys know me better than I know myself... I've been looking at more pictures of completed models and all seem to stick with the 5mm sternpost/rudder thickness....but, the worm is in my head now and I think I'm pretty resolved to try to get it right, just need to figure out my approach. I found some 1.5mm thick wood strip that I had to get a sense for what this would look like. egkb, Sjors, cog and 6 others 9 Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBROOK Posted August 31, 2015 Share #168 Posted August 31, 2015 Jason I do think this taper is frequently overlooked by Kit builders.Whilst I am not familiar with kits from American manufacturers,the only European kit maker that depicts this taper and indeed that of the prow is Euromodel.I feel that addressing this point Jason,will take you model away from one of the typical 'kit traits'.You only need to look in the scratch build section and see how many parallel stern posts you can find I can only applaud your decision for going this route Kind Regards Nigel P.S.you probably know me better than I know myself My carvings will be returning to natural wood Landlubber Mike, Beef Wellington, cog and 1 other 4 Quote Currently working on Royal Caroline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted August 31, 2015 Share #169 Posted August 31, 2015 Jason, I think Nigel has said it all ... Now 'go for it' NMBROOK, mtaylor and Beef Wellington 3 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted September 12, 2015 Author Share #170 Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) The rudder: One I'd made my mind up to try to reflect an appropriate taper on the sternpost, I realized I didn't really know how it would be shaped, so I decided to make up a new rudder as that is clearly illustrated in the AOTS book, thinking I could then use those dimensions to determine the taper on the sternpost. Bottom line, this was slow going as I don't have a huge assortment of power tools, but I had a lot of fun doing it! 5mm sheets of box were cut into approx. 9mm wide sections to allow final shaping and laminated together. I kept the front and back sections until the last moment so in the event of a catastrophic error I'd have less rework. I completely forgot to take progress pictures, but hopefully its relatively obvious. After studying many diagrams and plans, I tweaked the location of the pintle cut outs to match the AOTS dimensions, the biggest change was the uppermost one, which I raised a fair bit. Overall, very happy with the result compared to supplied part, I'm sure some final fettling will be needed before finally fitting. Should also add a public service announcement, did need to buy a small amount of wood from Jason at Crown Timberyard, - easy online ordering, lovely boxwood, and reached my house approx. 7 days from ordering - great service. The difference in dimensions can be seem compared to kit supplied rudder The rudder head now looks much more in scale within the counter rudder hole. Shots from below show how much of a 'build-up' will be needed to match the rudder dimensions. Edited September 12, 2015 by Beef Wellington hamilton, egkb, jim_smits and 11 others 14 Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted September 12, 2015 Share #171 Posted September 12, 2015 Jason, Even without power tools, you've done that rather well, not to say very well ... looks like it belongs ... mtaylor 1 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted September 12, 2015 Share #172 Posted September 12, 2015 Excellent work, Jason. Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted September 16, 2015 Share #173 Posted September 16, 2015 Hi Jason nice rework one thing not mentioned so far is the rudder thickness will increase when the copper tiles are added as possibility the dimensions in the book would be with the copper plates on. JesseLee 1 Quote Ray Current build A set of HMS Diana`s boats @ 1/48 HMS Royal Marine a Military class Trawler Completed HMS Diana Completed build The Lady Nelson Completed Build HMS Pegasus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share #174 Posted September 16, 2015 Thanks Carl, Mark, and the 'likes'.. Ray - great point. I'm somewhat limited in my level of 'precision', basically, if I can measure it on my metal ruler then I'm good. I've noticed that there are (not surprisingly) discrepancies in the AOTS book dimensions and without the plans its a bit of guesswork. Bottom line, I'm using the measurements as a guide but not getting too hung up on it - if it looks right then I'm happy egkb, mtaylor, maddog33 and 1 other 4 Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Ensign Posted September 17, 2015 Share #175 Posted September 17, 2015 Well thought through Jason, and an excellent result, beautifully clean work on the rudder. B.E. Beef Wellington and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Build: HMS Indefatigable-1794-by-blue-ensign-vanguard-models-164-scale Medway-longboat-1742-by-blue-ensign-½”-scale Completed builds: HMS Sphinx 1775 by Blue Ensign. 1:64 scale - Vanguard Models Queen-Anne-Royal-Barge-circa-1700-by-Blue-Ensign Fifie fishing boat Lady Eleanor Muirneag-1903-–-a-scottish-zulu-fishing-boat-164-scale-based-on-the-vanguard-models-zulu-kit/ HM Cutter Alert 1777 HM Cutter Cheerful 1806 18th-century-English-longboat-by-Blue-Ensign-ms-148-scale/ finished 18thc English Pinnace by Blue Ensign-Model-Shipways-1:24 scale/ finished HMS-Pegasus-by-Blue-Ensign-finished-Victory-Models-1:64-scale/ Heller Seventy-four 1:150 scale - modified Le Superbe/Le Glorieux kit after Boudriot, waterline setting with sails. The schooner Pickle, Jotika pob kit 1:64 scale, my interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted September 20, 2015 Author Share #176 Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Second Planking phase 1: Finished building up the stern post area with limewood strip to approximately where it needs to be. Once I'm confident that the stern area will work, on will go the lower counter which will allow me to put the wales on. I'm hoping to complete the wales first and then use this dictate the flow of the visible planking rather than install over the second planking. The sternpost was marked off as best estimate of the end state thickness and used to guide planking. I'm trying for a smooth run on the limewood, but then will be building up the second planking in 0.5mm increments to then sand this back as appropriate. I'm using PVA glue for the second planking, its slower but I just don't like using CA glue. There are also a couple of areas where the first planking is perilously thin so any additional strength will likely be beneficial. Not going to invest any more time than necessity requires here - all of this will be covered by copper plates. Limewood glued on but not sanded back. This was a little demoralizing as essentially a lot of this was replacing a lot of the material removed from the keel former for the rabbet and bearding. For anyone taking a similar approach keep this in mind right at the beginning of the build. Limewood sanded to shape and second planking going on... Additional 0.5mm thick strips added where needed for thickness... Pre-finished 'step' look that will eventually be sanded smooth as required before the sternpost itself is shaped. Edited September 20, 2015 by Beef Wellington jim_smits, egkb, Landlubber Mike and 9 others 12 Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted September 20, 2015 Share #177 Posted September 20, 2015 You didn't pick up more than you can chew, but you've got some chewing to do, Jason. It looks promising though!! JesseLee, mtaylor and Beef Wellington 3 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Wellington Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share #178 Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) And some results.... Quick report back on the 'double rabbet' approach taken at the beginning of the build, seems to have worked just fine. 1.5mm boxwood sheet cut to the profile of the sternpost, laminated to both sides and then tapered following the rudder profile. Rabbet where planking terminated at the sternpost seems to have turned out OK and I think the extra work will make the second planking in this tricky area go more smoothly....fingers crossed. I also cut away quite a bit of the keel former above the rudder to ensure I'll be able to attach rudder at late stage when pintles are in place. Sternview with rudder in place, lower counter template not yet glued. Question: Do the proportions look about right? All is in line with diagrams in the AOTS, but things look different in actuality. Its easy enough for me to adjust now so please let me know your thoughts Edited September 25, 2015 by Beef Wellington Sjors, Blue Ensign, maddog33 and 10 others 13 Quote Cheers, Jason "Which it will be ready when it is ready!" In the shipyard: HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate) Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700) Finished: HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbossa Posted September 25, 2015 Share #179 Posted September 25, 2015 Hi Jason, It certainly looks allright to me. Rabbets is just one ( among other ) details I did not care much about in previous builds, but it matters. The photos speak for themselves. mtaylor and Beef Wellington 2 Quote Kind regards Christian "The original always beats the copy" (supportive statement) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drtrap Posted September 27, 2015 Share #180 Posted September 27, 2015 Well Jason, it seems that you'll start your third one before I finish my Snake.... mtaylor and Beef Wellington 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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