Louie da fly
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Everything posted by Louie da fly
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Well, I'm afraid I'm waffling a bit whether to have the sails set. Bigpetr's question got me thinking - do I know they used the sails while they were rowing, did I read that somewhere, or is it just an assumption on my part? If I can't remember where I got the idea, maybe I'll never be sure I have it right. So I did a bit of investigating; unless I read all the way through Pryor's book Age of the Dromon I'm not likely to find the reference (if there is one). I'm prepared to do that, but it's going to take a while. In the meantime the pictorial record does provide some evidence. Here are some Byzantine representations of dromons with both oars and sails in use: from the 9th century Sacra Parallela BNF Gr. 923 f. 207r and the 12th century illustrated copy of the Synopsis Historion of Ioannis Skylitzes held in the Biblioteca Nacional in Madrid (yes, I do believe that's a sail). And one from the fifth century AD Roman Aenid of Vergil in the Vatican Library (Cod. Lat. Vat. 3867, fol. 77r) which is a little early, but a galley is a galley . . . the 12th century Spanish Cantigas de Santa Maria, and the late 12th century Italian Liber ad honorem Augusti (f. 131) However, there are also plenty of contemporary pictures of galleys, and not only in combat, without sails set, and in most cases without the masts either. The first two from the Synopsis Historion, the third from the Cantigas de Santa Maria and the fourth from the 12th century Byzantine Sermons of Gregory of Nazianzus, (Pantaleimon Cod. 6 f. 183r.) So, where does this leave me? There seems to be enough evidence to justify having the sails hoisted while the oars are in use - unless the artists just decided "Hey, we've got oars and sails - let's show everything!" However, I'm also up against the problem that when I laid the whole thing out - hull, superstructure etc - belaying points were the furthest thing from my mind. So one pair of shrouds fouls the midship castles, and I'm really not sure if the same thing won't happen with the running rigging. Perhaps I'll just have the thing under oars alone, with the masts and yards stored on their stands above the deck - it's still an option. I need to do some serious thinking about all this. In the meantime, today I've been cleaning up remnants of white glue. I'm a bit over-enthusiastic about slathering it all over the place (still better than when I was 17 - parts of the Great Harry are not a pretty sight). I've previously used rubbing alcohol (otherwise known as isopropyl alcohol or isopropanol) to dissolve glue to remove things I'd glued down, but Liteflight put me onto using it to remove gobs of glue. So this afternoon I got a bit of cloth, a toothpick and some isopropanol and started rubbing the messy bits of glue that detracted from the look of the model, particularly on the gunwale where the oars and pavesades were glued on. And it worked! Looks much better. A fair bit of elbow grease involved, but well worth it. So thank you, Liteflight.
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Really enjoying the whole discussion but I have to say I'm also looking forward to the point when you move from the design phase into the actual building process (my coffee's getting cold ).
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To be honest, I think it looks pretty good. Remembering that we're all our own worst critics, perhaps it's not as world-shatteringly terrible as you think. If it looks good in a photo (and they often exaggerate faults), I think you can probably feel safe that it's of acceptable quality.
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You've done a beautiful job of her, Chris. That's really a model to be proud of.
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A single one is a baluster. A unit with railing and balusters is called a balustrade. (Just something I've picked up working in building design). That looks really good, Sweephall. Nice to see the internal details, too.
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HMCSS Victoria 1855 by BANYAN - 1:72
Louie da fly replied to BANYAN's topic in - Build logs for subjects built 1851 - 1900
WAAAAY outside my experience, but it's looking very good, and following the discussion is very interesting. I may never make a model from this period, but finding out the details is fascinating.- 993 replies
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It's looking good, Wayne. I don't think I'd have the courage to work with card. To me, wood is much more forgiving .
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If you've been using PVA (white glue) you can dissolve it using "rubbing alcohol" (isopropyl alcohol),usually available from supermarkets in the "personal grooming" aisle. It works very well, so long as youallow it time to do its work (and sometimes you need to do it more than once). I use a Q-tip to apply it, but it might be better if you can find an applicator that is a bit more precise.
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I wouldn't do a diorama for this model. I was thinking of doing one of something like the picture of Antwerp roads from 1515, but only a section of it, not the whole thing. And of course to a smaller scale than 1:50 . . . Two steersmen on a dromon, but sometimes they lifted one rudder from the water and just used one, depending on the conditions. "Raspberry stain"? That's Imperial Purple, I'll have you know - from the murex shellfish! (Actually, for something that size they wouldn't use murex to make purple - too expensive - just madder for red and overdye it with woad for blue.)
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OK, now we hit the part I've been dreading -the rigging. I'm happy with the shrouds and halyards, but the rest of the running rigging has me a bit bamboozled. Unfortunately I really have trouble understanding all them ropes, and as this is a lateener, not a square rigger, there's no easily available information on how it all works. However, I've been studying a lot of mediaeval pictures (many of which are so oversimplified as to be completely useless and others quite informative), photos of modern lateeners (most of which are too small to have the problems and forces involved in something as large as a dromon), and some have bowsprits which hadn't been invented yet - though in several of them it doesn't affect the lateen sail anyway. and photos of dhows (when the sail is a lateen rather than a setee), many of which are big enough, but often the photos don't show the details I need to know about. Also models of lateen-rigged xebecs from MSW and elsewhere. There seems to be quite a bit of variation - some have no vangs, some have only one, some have two. Others have no brails, some have a single sheet (as far as I can see), some have two - and the same goes for tacks - some with one on each side, some (at least in the mediaeval pictures) have only a single tack. My two main questions are - have I covered all the ropes used in the running rigging? and - where are the belaying points? I've decided to use the tacking technique outlined in Landstrom's book The Ship, with the lee shrouds loosened and the lower end of the yard pulled back to the mast and pushed over to the other side, so the sail isn't fouled by the mast on the new tack. As far as I can make out, that would mean that the tacks would have to run back to belaying points quite a distance astern of the mast, so you could pull the fore end of the yard far enough back to pass around the mast. I've put together an annotated photo of my dromon with what I think is an acceptable layout (sorry for the messy background) . The white curved lines represent the sails, and the red lines are the ropes, with red ovals to represent blocks. The idea is to have a ringbolt as the fixed end of each rope and a cleat to belay the free end. Not sure if brails had been developed in the 11th century. Other than that, i hink I've got it as close as I can to the real thing. I'd appreciate comments and suggestions. I'm rather out of my depth in all this.
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That sounds like a very worthwhile thing to do. A pity my Greek isn't good enough to appreciate it (actually, not even good enough to wade through it slowly and painfully). This could be a valuable addition to the knowledge of ships of this time - combining the clues from Homer with those from the vases.
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Fascinating and illuminating discussion. This is a very worthwhile build to follow, as well as very enjoyable.
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Nice work on the stern. I was wondering how you were going to do that. What's the problem with the deckhouses?
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Looking good! As far as I know, nail polish remover dissolves CA. Might be worth a try (but probably best to test it on scrap first!)
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Sounds to me like you've chosen the correct option. The difference between your finished product and the real thing is probably going to be so minor that you would have to point it out before anybody (except perhaps the absolute top experts in Viking ships) noticed. This is going to be an impressive model when complete - hell, it's already impressive!
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Oh, I know, I know. I have toyed with the idea of doing a diorama - but first I want to finish what I'm making.
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To be expected. Viking shields were much thinner in reality than most people think. 8-10mm thick at the centre, reducing to 5-6mm at the edge. At 1:72 scale, that's somewhere about a tenth of a millimetre! Obviously impossible to have them that thin, but it is possible to make shields much thinner than the ones supplied in the kit. Wood's no good because if it's that thin it warps or splits. I used multiple layes of facial tissue glued together for mine and after a bit of experimentation it worked - but my shields were bowl-shaped - Viking shields are flat. You might just try card, or perhaps because card is also prone to warping) thin metal - brass or aluminium.
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Pat, I had a look at the documentary - thanks for that. I'd seen most of those dromon pics before, except for the one with the red square sails. There's been a lot of speculation on the true form of dromons - these ones are of course modern reconstructions (as is my own model), and there are an infinite number of ways to interpret the evidence that's come down to us about them. These are quite valid interpretations, but I do prefer Prof Pryor's ideas (with some additions and alterations from my own study and observation). I appreciate your alerting me to this.
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Good plan. There's enough good about this model to make it worth retrieving. And what you're doing so far is very good - you'll end up with a far better model than you would have, had you completed it way back then. Which, after all, is what it's all about.
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Thanks everybody for the likes and comments. Apparently so. I forget the reference, but apparently it was not all that unusual. However, once the wind is reliable, there's no good reason to wear your rowers out, so you'd probably stop rowing. But for example the Argo reconstruction that rowed and sailed from Greece to Southern Russia in the 1970s did it every now and then when they needed extra motive power IIRC. However, the wind has to be from directly astern and not too strong - if the ship heels more than 10 degrees it is in danger of capsizing, and any heel would interfere with the oars of one side. Maybe I'll use those guys. We'll see. Banyan, I started looking at that video and then the computer ran out of internet. I'll have another look later.
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