Rigging Ratlines

[slagoon]

Seems like the appropriate place for my next dumbest question of the week....how far apart should ratlines be?(height wise)

[russ]

JerseyCity Frankie:

It is true that they used eye splices at the ends of the ratlines. The thread through the shroud technique might yield a better looking job if it is done carefully. It certainly is doable. However, it is important to remember that each person has their own tastes, abilities, etc. It is good to know about full size practices though. I am sure everyone will appreciate your insight. Thanks for chiming in.

 

Sarah:

I think about 15 inches give or take would be a good height between ratlines.

 

Russ

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Brion Toss has an excellent book on rigging for actual sail vessels and devotes several pages to ratlines and how to install them. He claims a spacing of 16" is "standard". His book is called The Complete Riggers Apprentice and covers modern and traditional rigging. I checked Darcy Lever but he doesn't appear to give a spacing. William Brady says "15" is a good distance between the ratlines" on page 70 of The Kedge-Anchor(1847). Nares Seamanship (1862)  asks "haw far are the ratlines apart? Fifteen or Sixteen inches" on page 55. Harold Underhill, in Masting and Rigging of the Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier(1946) gives "About 15" apart" on page 83. Finally Lees, in Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War (1979) says ratlines "were spaced 13" to 15" apart. Its funny. Before I went back and checked my references I would have said it was 16" to 18". Its also funny that none of the experts I sited were exactly specific, except Brion Toss who's book is more about present day real world rigging and is certainly not intended for the model builder. Its still a great well written book with something of interest for anyone who is at all nautical.

[slagoon]

Since I don't have these books at least I have you guys who have these books!  Thank you soo much...(0.1 inch on my model)

[russ]

The 1.5 inch circumference was fairly standard. Lees and Steel both quote that. That would be about 1/2 inch diameter. There are two schools of though over whether the ratlines were tarred or not. Some say yes, others say no. I do not think there is a concensus on that issue. Each modeler can make their own choice on that.

 

As for the spacing, like I said, 15 inches, give or take. Most of the reliable sources say that or something very close. I would say that the modeler needs to work it as close as they can within their scale.

 

Russ

[fnkershner]

Sarah - Actually you have access to several of the books mentioned. As a dues paying member of PSSM you have the use of our Library. You will find many of the books mentioned in this thread there. Now if we could just get other members to return the books they have borrowed.

[russ]

Gary:

I was just talking about the historical debate and the fact that contemporary evidence is somewhat lacking. That is why there is no consensus. It would be great if we could find some contemporary evidence that would settle the question rather than have a debate. That is not always how historical research works, though.

 

Russ

[Modeler12]

This may be a little late, but here is a good web site about tying knots. I show the clove hitch, but there are lots of others with a nice animated way to tie them.

http://www.animatedknots.com/cloveend/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

[shipmodel]

Hi all -

 

Here is another tip for tying ratlines -

 

After you have clipped your lined off card behind the shrouds, put a dot of white paint on each of the outermost shrouds where they cross your lines.  Now remove the card.  This will give you your horizontal guideline while freeing up access to the back of the shrouds when you tie your knots.  After all of the ratlines are done go back and paint over the white dots with black paint.  Since the shrouds were tarred, if not the ratlines, this actually results in a more accurate look.

 

I use clove hitches, myself, even down to 1:96 scale, although I have seen other methods that can be effective.  I find them quick to tie and they slide easily up and down the shrouds to get the horizontal look right.  At the outermost shrouds I use an overhand loop, which is small and neat, with the tail running down and behind the shroud.  The tail pulls outward, so I can adjust the tension on the knots as I go, and helps in avoiding the hourglass problem.  I find that using just this overlhand loop is the least obvious once the tail is cut off.

 

I wrote an article on this method in the Nov/Dec 1989 issue of the old Ships in Scale magazine called "Get the 'Rats' out of your ratlines!"  if you have the magazine or the CD.

 

Dan

[Modeler12]

Something I always look at in a ship model is how the ratlines are tied. In actual practice on ships that used rope ratlines the clove hitch was used for all the inner shrouds but the ends of the ratlines were not tied or knotted to the shrouds, each ratline end terminated in an eye splice. These eye splices were lashed to the shrouds with small stuff. Its my opinion that using a knot for the termination of the ratline ends leaves too big of a lump- the eye splices and lashings were more of a smooth taper that did not protrude outboard or inboard of the shrouds at all. . . . . I assure you this is how it is done on actual ships.

Here is a closeup of the ratlines on the USS Constitution and it shows what you are talking about. The picture is a bit fuzzy, but it does show the eyespice on the ratline and the lashing to hold it to the last shroud.

[normanh]

I space my ratlines  out at 5-6 mm on a 1:64 Model thats about 320mm to 384 mm thats about 12.6 inches to 15.2 inches which seems reasonable to me.

[amateur]

With respect to the last shroud:

For Dutch ships in the 17th century there is no evidence that eyesplices were used (actually, almost no evidence available at all)

After much debate, on the Batavia -reconstruction in Lelystad they followed the practive of using a clove hitch on the last shroud, but taking the loose end backwards and make a small lashing to keep it from unravelling.

 

 

Jan

Edited April 9, 2013 by amateur

[druxey]

Thanks, Jan. It's interesting to see different nations' approaches to the same problem.

[dcicero]

Another quick update...

 

Practice may not make perfect, but it sure does make "better."

 

Here are the port ratlines.  They turned out better than the starboard ones.  I was able to go back and correct some of the errors on the starboard side and they do look presentable now.

 

Next time I have to do this, I'm installing the ratlines when I step the masts rather than after everything is in place.  Working in the tight quarters around the main yard was nerve wracking.

 

 

Dan

[ZyXuz]

I'm currently struggling on this too.. my ratlines are creating a slight hourglass shape to my shrouds I'm thinking to rework on them..

 

Do you guys rig the futtock stave first? or start on the ratline first? 

i'm thinking of rigging the futtock stave first maybe can help giving (or adjust) better spacing between shrouds? because at the top area, the shrouds are already touching each other..

Any comment?

[gjdale]

ZyXuz,

 

Definitely rig the futtock stave first. That will certainly help keep the shroud spacing at the top.

[S.Coleman]

It is a very boring job at times but the patience pays off when it's done! Great work

[druxey]

To combat 'hourglassing' of shrouds when rigging ratlines, tie every fifth one to begin with. Then add a ratline half-way between those installed, and finally one between each to complete the job. As you go with the first and second round, check that you aren't pulling the shrouds out of line.

[amateur]

And a check is easily done by using a piece of cardboard with a straight red line drawn on i.

Place it behind the shrouds, and everywhere were you see red, there's something out of line.

 

Jan

[isali]

The Light bulb (starts) to come on!!

 

After several models and practice attempts to have ratlines look like ratlines rather than Halloween decorations.  (for a while I thought I would specialize in ghost ships  

 

I have finally honed in on a method of doing ratlines which I wanted to share because it gives a great result and is easier, less stressful and faster than what I had been doing.  

 

I have not invented anything new, simply used the bits and pieces from various (too many to attribute) sources.    Many of the pieces are on this website, so thank you to all who have posted these helpful techniques.  It may work for you in full or in part.

 

Please feel free to modify this technique to work for you and if you can post any changes or whatever your experience with it is.

 

It actually seems simple.

 

1) Make a card template with the horizontal rats and vertically angled shrouds 

 

Mark or color code the card into sections  defining the order to do the ratlines:  1st group(three rats) the Upper, lower and middle ratline,  2nd group (two rats) , split those areas so you have two more rats at approx 1/4 and 3/4 of the way up the shroud   3rd group (4 rats) ; split the quarters and so on so eventually you have ratted every other row.  nth group (double the amount of rats as the last group)   This shows trends towards spiderwebs before they show up.   THere is a great picture of color coding the horizontal rats in this forum. (thanks )

 

 

I pin it to the shrouds with some mini clothespins.  I may experiment with threading it through the back, around a shroud and back through the card in a few places. 

 

 

2) Use a needle to thread the outer and first shroud.  Use PLENTY of string.   Trying to tie knots with minimal string leads to un-aligning the ratlines.  For the cost of an extra spool of thread, it's worth it!

 

3) Tie a hitch (the kind where the rope goes around the shroud the same way for both loops) around the first inner shroud but NOT the outer shroud (you may need to adjust it to avoid spiders.   AT this point you have the thread going through the outer shroud and a hitch on the first inner shroud. 

 

4) Thread the needle through the next shroud and tie another hitch.  and so on : at the end, Do NOT tie the outer shroud.

 

5) Make any minor adjustments on the inner shrouds.   Dab with diluted white glue.

 

6) Adjust the outer shrouds.  Follow the same general row sequence of splitting the shroud length in half for each

 

7) Use a Cow hitch, having the loop go from back (inboard) to front (outboard), over the ratline, then inboard again.  This order gives a nice finished look on the rat/shroud and hides the bitter end after cutting the excess line

 

8) tighten the ratline by pulling inboard NOT fwd or aft; so the end to be cut is somewhat hidden behind the shroud and the shroud stays aligned while tightening the rat.

 

9) Dab diluted glue on the outer shroud knots

 

10) cut the ends.

 

 

Advantages:  

 

Using a needle :

Tying knots with the thread in a needle is much easier and faster than with fingers and tweezers.

The needle makes it easier to keep the ratlines horizontal

Threading the rat through the shroud provides just enough tension to hold the ratline taunt while you tie a knot

Threading the shroud provides horizontal stability

 

Leaving the outer shrouds for last,.

 Ability to make final adjustments on the outer shrouds.

 

 

 

 

Ira

 

 

[Mahuna]

Thanks Ira! I'll definitely try this. Very well thought out and presented.

 

Frank

[isali]

Good luck, please add to the post. I plan to print this out and review it prior to the next build

 

Ira

[Jim Lad]

Bob, she certainly had rope ratlines during her working life, but if you are modelling her as a training ship in the 1930's, then boards would be correct, as shown in the photos in Nepean-longridge's book.  I believe that she also had other rigging changes at this time, so some research would be needed to achieve accuracy if you are modelling her as a training ship.

 

John

[Techsan]

So the consensus is that "loom-a-line" ratline jigs are worthless?

[Gregory]

Yes..  I think the vote was con=1, sensus = 0 ..

[amateur]

Worth only for the seller, not for the buyer

[S.Coleman]

If you hate tying hundreds of knots you can always try how I do it. No knots. Just 50:50 white glue. It's fast. Here is some pics off my still in construction Friesland.

[Ulises Victoria]

20 hours ago, Techsan said:

So the consensus is that "loom-a-line" ratline jigs are worthless?

Not entirely. It's brass pins can be used in a variety of ways. I use them in holes in a board to help bending planks to certain shapes, for example... but yes... to make shrouds and ratlines... completely useless!

[Srodbro]

S. Coleman:

i, too, favor limiting my knot tying on ratlines and use of 50/50 to secure them to shrouds. I am curious as to how the ratlines were held in place while you glued to the shrouds. 

Here is my method, as shown in the pics:

1. Secure a piece of paper behind the shrouds. This to better be able to see what I'm doing, and to separate the ratlines rigging process from the rigging in place behind the shrouds. 

2.  Secure a strip of masking tape along side of and parallel to the outermost right hand shroud. 

3.  Use a simple overhand knot to secure the ratlines to the outermost left hand shroud. 

4.  "Weave" the ratlines, in-and-out across the shrouds. Very gently lay the tail of the ratlines across the strip of tape. Repeat the process for several other ratlines, alternating the passes over the shrouds.  Note that there is still some "hourglassing" of the shroud that the ratlines was tied to, but that can be eliminated by lifting the ratlines off the tape and adjusting to the final location before applying glue mixture. After glue dries, trim the ratlines ends. 

5.  Since I took the pics I've learned to begin the process about midway between the lanyards and the top, and to install only about five ratlines, adjust, then glue into place. This makes the effort to eliminate the "hourglassing" much less, and, after the glue dries on the initial five lines, helps prevent it on installation of the next ratlines above and below.

 

I have found this works well on lower masts, where there are more than, say, four shrouds, but it doesn't work well if there are four or less, as the tension on the shrouds in the "basket weave" is most responsible for holding the ratlines in place until glued. 

 

Hence my question on how you hold the ratlines in place until glued. 

 

[S.Coleman]

I use a wood glue called tightbond. It has all of the properties of wood glue but it sticks real fast. Faster than your normal carpenters Wood glue. It helps alot.