74-gun ship by Gaetan Bordeleau - 1:24

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Installation of spacers between frames, 2 rows in the bottom of the ship, each side of the keel.  Spacers are installed at the jonction of 2 parts. Tracing the line is made with a square plank  held on frames by metal clothes rack  bent in C shape, adjusted by a wedge.

 

Boudriot, volume 1 p. 132 : the form of the limber hole is rectangular and is located under the second planking (gabord or galbord : first one, ribord or vibord : the second one), except at both extremities. Joints between planks must not be over the limber holes to avoid obstruction by oakum (calfatage) and also at the end of the planks  where an iron plate is set. Above limber hole there is a removable plank (paraclose) for cleaning purposes. Pump feet are slightly above the channel. To prevent oakum aspiration from the pump, a wood veneer is inlaid in the foot  of the pump on thecorresponding frame.

 

[dak4482]

Gaetan,

 

Looking at the 74 Gun Ship and Steel's Naval Architecture, the sheer plans seem to differ a bit on how they lay out the breadth of the ship. Steel uses buttock lines and Boudriot uses ribbands it appears. Why the difference? What is the most accurate way to duplicate the breadth at different levels using the sheer plan ribbands or buttock lines? Seems that ribbands while more numerous add the wifth of the actual ribbands while buttock lines are normally limited to six but do show the actual breadth at those levels. Thoughts?

 

Thx in advance.

 

Dan

Edited October 3, 2017 by dak4482

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Dan,

 

Sometimes the only way to know is to try.

Sorry, I do not know the answer.

[Sailor1234567890]

Could you put up an image showing what you mean? I can't picture how buttocks would be used to show the breadth of a vessel.They are essentially longitudinal station lines. They couldn't be used to determine breadth any more than station lines could be used to delineate profile in a profile drawing...... I need an image of what your'e talking about to picture it properly.

Thanks,
Daniel

[Sailor1234567890]

Re-reading your question, I think using the waterlines would be the best way, not buttocks or ribbands. I think by ribbands, you mean the diagonals right?

 

[mtaylor]

8 hours ago, dak4482 said:

Gaetan,

 

Looking at the 74 Gun Ship and Steel's Naval Architecture, the sheer plans seem to differ a bit on how they lay out the breadth of the ship. Steel uses buttock lines and Boudriot uses ribbands it appears. Why the difference? What is the most accurate way to duplicate the breadth at different levels using the sheer plan ribbands or buttock lines? Seems that ribbands while more numerous add the wifth of the actual ribbands while buttock lines are normally limited to six but do show the actual breadth at those levels. Thoughts?

 

Thx in advance.

 

Dan

The simple answer is Steel is for English ships (he was contemporary with them) and Boudriot (who did historical) is French.  Two different methods involved.  So for an English ship, use Steel.  For French ships (unless they were captured and the plans are from the NMM) use Boudriot.

 

Disclaimer:  This is my perception and I could be wrong.  If I am, please correct me.

Edited October 4, 2017 by mtaylor

[dak4482]

Thx for the replies.  Daniel, if you look at the sheer drawings from the two authors, one shows buttock lines and the other shows riibbands and waterlines.  Boudriot mentions butock lines in several places in his "74 Gun Ship" but doesnt show them anywhere on his sheer plans. Steel shows buttock lines and water lines. His diagrams are much more detailed (see attached) as they go along with his narrative on architecture. I am just trying to get my head around how they started laying out the lines of the ship for sheer using the two different methods. Maybe I'm confusing breadth and shape. Please help me on this if there is a simple explanation. I'm very new to these diagrams and if I'm way off base I wont be offended if you say so. Just trying to learn.

 

Thx in advance.

 

Dan

Steel's_Book_0003.pdf

Edited October 4, 2017 by dak4482

[Deperdussin1910]

Just plain brilliant work on this model.  Thanks for sharing it with us.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

 

Thank you Deperdussin1910,

 

A lot of strengths are involved in this puzzle. It is difficult to well balanced everything. The keel was supposed to be straight but it was not. The first method to unglue some spacers between frames was to try to realign the keel with 2 by 4. It did unglue some and helped to realign. I will let everything stabilize and probably unglue some others. We also see how the planking fit on the keel. Limber holes has been traced lower than on drawings and cut.

  

 

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Gaetan Bordeleau

[BANYAN]

Very nicely faired there Gaetan, great work as usual!

 

cheers

 

pat

[Tigerdvr]

A pleasure to watch and learn from your log.  Somehow the Confederacy that I am working on doesn't seem so big anymore.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Merci Messieurs for your compliments.

 

Rebalancing the frames

 

I did unglue few spacers more : about 1 side every  6 frames (represented by clamps on 1 picture).

Thanks to those who developped this method, it proves to be really effective.

The  keel was also reclamped  to help it to realign.

 

 1 other step has to be consider when assembling frames to help to reduce stress which can be then transmit to the keel. After the assembly job is completed, I think it is a good thing to check the keel assembly if there is any curve and if so it is a signal that some pressure must be release from the assembly by ungluing some spacers.

 

With the 74, a theoritical thickness of spacer between frames of 0,225’’, had to be reduce  of at least 0,01 to 0,215’’.  Still it was not enough, it had to reduce from the thickness of 1 spacer  divided between around 20 frames. So It would be around 0,205’’, this means almost 10% less. Is it too much???

 

The idea when assembling the frames is that the assembly must not to induce pressure to include spacers. If too much pressure is used, every thing will want to disassemble in 1000 parts nd this we do not want to see!

[Hubac's Historian]

Excellent work, Gaetan, in straightening her out!  She's a lovely ship rounding into form.  I'm really enjoying your informative build.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Thank you  

 

Picture explaining last post

frame assembly from 1 extremity toward the middle, both side 

middle area in last, buffer area to adjust spacer thickness

+ unglue 1 side of spacer every 4 or 5 frame, 6 look like a bit too much.

FUJI4179

[John Allen]

Keep repeating myself MAGNIFICENT

[druxey]

Trussben's Pegasus framing at 1:48 had a similar problem with changes in humidity distorting the framing because of the spacers. Expansion/contraction gaps seem to be the answer.

Edited October 7, 2017 by druxey

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Hi Druxey,

 

In Quebec, humidity is at his peak in autumn. In this case, assembly was made this summer up to know. Humidity is certainly a major factor but there is another  big player who comes to influence this assembly : Tension. All these tensions created by the assembly of the frames are not working in the same direction. It is only the beginning of the construction and the keel was already curving. If nothing is done, the problem could amplify. Not only the keel will curve like a S shape but the keel will also  twist from 1 side to the other. One way to observe would  be to pull a rope between the 2 extremities of the ship and to measure parts every side of this center line… it will be off center.  

 

The good news is that at this early stage of construction, it is possible to reduce greatly this problem. This multi layered sandwich has around 200 layers which must fit in a fix length. The thickness of  200 glue layers is not calculated anywhere but it will influence the assembly pressure. Frame thickness is fix thickness in the puzzle that can not touch. The only remaining variable is the spacer thickness. But it is only when the final action will be done that the keel will retract and  come back straight again  with  the Trussben effect; unglue 1 spacer side every 4 to 6 frames.

 

 

[druxey]

I agree, Gaetan. My current model hull (much smaller) with about 40 couples at 1:48 scale is stable as I assembled the framing and then fitted the deck clamps immediately. The model was bolted to a building board to keep the keel straight and flat until the wales were also added. Of course, with your 1:24 model the various forces are much larger.

[Trussben]

Interesting Gaetan,

 

In your double bigger scale than I, that you have same affect and same results as I saw, it appears to be universal problem.

At my home in Upstate NY, we currently have 65% outside humidity and my workshop is around 50%.

i have now left an entire floor spacer out every 8 frames and all the others are only glued on one fore/aft side to reduce tensions- I have not seen any movement at all in keel twist, keel hogging, or anything to be honest - but I'm not at the lowest humidity of the season yet, but I now have winter control to keep humidity up around 40-45%.

 

Im going to install some deck clamps and the main wales to add some strength next to try and ensure it stays that way as per Druxeys and DVMs advice.

 

bon chance

 

ben

Edited October 16, 2017 by Trussben

[cog]

I wonder how it would be on the real life size model. Those forces would be enormous compared to what you are dealing with ...

[JohnE]

Hi Gaetan,

 

I live on the Gulf coast in Alabama, so humidity changes are very large. It really messes with the guitars. I use a humidifier and a dehumidifier to keep things on a relatively even keel (ha, ha). I don't try to climate control, just keep the changes from being too radical. Might help le vaisseau.

 

Love the work on the rablure.

 

John

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

The problem of wood movement of the keel has been observed by many of us. With this build, I  took sometime to observe it and it was well worth. At scale 1/24, I find it difficult to have every parts to fit always at equal distance of the center line. I have often asked myself how it was on 1 to 1 scale. It surely would be an interesting observation to do on a real one!

 

Humidity and Assembly Pressure are factors influencing wood movement. Humidity is the smallest one.   Pressure used during assembly to fit the spacers is the main one. The first  effect of excessive pressure are observable on the straightness of the keel. For this reason, the assembly method used has the advantage that you can turn the keel upside down. A method using MDF or plywood to hold the frames would be useless to check the keel fairness.

 

1/3 of the frames front and back were  assembled with no pressure, just by adding layers of frames and spacers. The middle third was assembled with some pressure mainly for the last spacers. I did some assembling and disassembling of that last third and I think that 2 factors can correct this fault :

 

- eliminate as much as possible the pressure by reducing the thickness between spacers

- unglue 1 side of spacer each 4 to 8 frames.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

second chapter, beginning aft;

[Sailor1234567890]

I like the dark images. Really shows up the lines of the hull. 

[BANYAN]

Very nicely faired hull Gaetan; you must be happy to moving onto new tasks

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

The whole structure is fully framed except above the toilet  door. Even if  I did not do any research, I see no reasons why this space would not be also fully frame, so I filled the void.

Even if a cannon ball would not be stopped by a frame, it surely would surely be slow down, especially that there is a big reunion room behind.

 

I replaced the dead laser guide. In addition to project 1 or 2 perpendicular lines horizontal and vertical it can also project a angular line 360 degrees and another tool is added to measure with greater ease the same elevation on both sides when tracing longitudinal lines outside or inside the hull; a laser to measure distance especially, the  vertical  ones.

 

An 8 feet long square batten, almost as thick as the planking,  is use to draw reference lines on the hull. Basically it is a straight line with both ends being higher than the middle. To get a regular curve at the front end, masking tape is use instead.

[JohnReid]

great job! Love it.

[Mike Y]

Love that dark shots!

[aviaamator]

I knew that laser technology still comes to modeling! Gaetano! Great job! I'm studying...

[Captain Poison]

A colossal job Gaetan, I never tire of seeing the images! Thank you for sharing your knowledge. For me a very appreciated source of information..