A method for making panelled sails using paper

[Cathead]

Fair point, but in practice it depends on just how precise the modeler is trying to be. And for those of us who don't like being around the smell of things like varnish and CA more than we can help it, a threader is a far more benign and time-efficient method. I've also found that carefully placing just the smallest tip of rope into the threader makes it easier to thread holes that are closer in diameter to the rope, rather than trying to pull a full 2x diameter length through.

[Gregory]

16 minutes ago, Cathead said:

I've also found that carefully placing just the smallest tip of rope into the threader makes it easier to thread holes that are closer in diameter to the rope, rather than trying to pull a full 2x diameter length through.

You can also unravel the rope and pull a strand through for starters..

[robert952]

3 hours ago, wefalck said:

We had this discussion already in another thread some time ago: If you can use such needle threaders on blocks this means that the holes in the blocks are too big for the 'rope' and/or that the 'rope' is too soft and can be squeezed too much. The holes should be about 10% wider than the nominal 'rope' diameter.

 

I would follow Mark's advice and stiffen the tip with varnish and then cut it to a point.

Thanks for the info.  I thought it would be out of scale for many if not most.  

[shipman]

On the subject of paper quality/durability......way back in my art school days one alternative was something called 'Bank Paper'. As the name suggests, it's the stuff bank notes are/were printed on, which is of the 'rag' paper variety. It could be bought in various weights, some being tissue thin. A decent art supplier should be able to help.

[Dee_Dee]

Cat, 

 

Very nice sails. 

 

For sewing on the bolt rope, I would like to make two product suggestions. 

 

I totally understand why your using the needle threader instead of a needle.  There are needles with fine / small eyes, but threading them is a real pain.  For the needle, I would like to suggest using "Beadalon Collapsible Eye Needles".  The eyes collapse to the same size as the needle.  These come in multiple sizes and should be faster to sew with. 

 

These are readily available, this link is to confirm the exact product. 

https://www.michaels.com/beadalon-fine-collapsible-eye-needles/M10427044.html

 

There are other 'collapsible eye' needles, but I find these best for actual sewing.

 

For the thread, Nymo is a beading thread that is a single ply and very fine.  It's a nylon fiber and very strong.  What's nice about this thread, it does not fray (untwist) very easily and if it does, nearly impossible to see.

This needle and thread combination would allow sewing 'thru' the bolt rope instead of around it.   

 

Nymo Thread

Size      Thickness

OO       ?

O         0.15mm / 0.006 in

B         0.20mm / 0.008 in

D         0.30mm / 0.012 in

F          0.35mm / 0.014 in

 

This link will provide info on available colors

https://www.firemountaingems.com/search?keywords=nymo+thread

 

 

 

 

.

[wefalck]

If I remember correctly, there are fly-tying threads (e.g. 18/0 from Veevus or Caenis) that are even thinner and also available in suitable colours.

 

However, a 0.1 mm thread would be in say 1/48 scale equivalent to nearly a 5 mm rope, which is not what was used to sew bolt-ropes to sails. Hence, any sewing in scales below 1/24 or so would be grossly out of scale ...

[allanyed]

I believe Eberhard is totally correct, and take it further to say any kind of sewing on sails at scales smaller than 1:24 or possibly 1:36 is a great way to ruin an otherwise fine model.     

Allan

[Cathead]

5 minutes ago, allanyed said:

any kind of sewing on sails at scales smaller than 1:24 or possibly 1:36 is a great way to ruin an otherwise fine model.     

 

I think this ties back into a discussion ongoing elsewhere on MSW about what models are for. If the intention is a high-end museum-quality professional presentation, then I agree with you. But there are other goals and perspectives. For example, on my fictional revenue cutter that is the foundation of this thread, I'm quite aware that the sail-sewing is out of scale. But to non-specialists it's also visually engaging and representative of the real thing. A viewer here in land-locked Missouri isn't likely to know (or care) about the proper scale of bolt ropes, they're far more likely to think "Oh, so that's how sails were made" or ask "what's that stitching for?". Leaving that detail out may be more accurate, but it also eliminates the chance to learn because it'll never occur to the viewer to ask the question about a detail they "shouldn't" see.

 

For most of my models, my goal isn't to be 100% accurate, but rather to be representative and engaging. This comes from my perspective as an educator, where sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good. Models are both engineering AND art, and some artistic license should be allowed for most of us without being disparaged by the idea that the only good model is a perfect replica. There's a balance to be found between reasonable accuracy and bean-counting, and it'll be different for different modelers and models depending on context.

[allanyed]

Cathead,

You of course are totally correct.  This is a hobby to bring enjoyment, and if art rather than realism is the goal, that is a great thing.    Whatever gives joy is what counts, and there is probably as much variation in what brings that joy as there are members here.   

 

Regarding a goal for accuracy, mine is for 100% but I know full well that will never happen.   But, the challenge and of course the frustration that comes with such an unreachable goal remains until I will have to hang it up one of these days.   

 

Cheers,

Allan

[John Fox III]

Greetings All,

 

I have another alternative for making paper sails. The photos are pretty much self explanatory. I used X9, 16 lb. printer paper, and thinned white glue. Basically, a whole lot of equally spaced small nails/pins were sunk into a piece of wood, down both sides of the top. A sheet of clear acetate was taped down between the pins, a piece of paper taped on top of that. Then fly tying thread was strung between pins. Thinned white glue was then applied to the paper and threads with a paint brush, a second piece of paper placed on top, and a second acetate sheet on top of that. A second board was placed on top of it all, and clamped down with multiple C clamps. Left to dry for 24 hours, then disassembled and the threads cut. One thing to note is that when applying the glue the thread stretched a bit, and some portions of the resulting sail would not have glued tightly.

 

What I did was to make multiple sheets of sails, and pick out the areas that were the right size and the entire area was glued properly to use for my model. I tried various thread colors, but found that they were too prominent if not using white thread. I did not try different papers, might be worth checking out the method using something other than printer paper. For the some of the jib sails I cut two pieces and used thin paper to glue them together.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anchor's A Weigh!

John Fox III

 

[Kevin]

good morning everyone

 

i have come to the conclusion that i would like to try this on my Amerigo builds

couple of questions though

would this work with 27+ sails

i would like a darker colour, possible light blue or green, to show off the rigging

could the bond paper be adapted to furled sails

what GSM weight bond paper

[wefalck]

As far as I remember (I have seen her a couple of times) the sails of AMERIGO VESPUCCI are (off-)white, so I am not sure that it is a good idea to tint them in some unsual colour. Would certainly give the ship a 'Disney' appearance 😲

 

Where is the problem with 27 sails, the only limit is your patience ...

 

The thinner the paper, the better. In fact, even the thinnest silk-paper is likely to be too thick, when considering real scale thickness.

 

Furled panneled sails are possible, but you may need to make them somewhat shorter in order to bring the furled volume to the scale volume. I have done it, but you may be struggling with seams breaking open (I know this from experience).

 

One could explore another strategy for those tighly furled sails in navy style: when furling, the sail would be embedded into a sort of pocket formed by the top-part of it; this is to keep water out of it; for the same reason the sail is stowed on top of the yard; one could sculpt this 'sausage' of sail in polymer clay or something like this and just wrap short lengths of silk-paper around it to simulate the panels.

 

[Kevin]

34 minutes ago, wefalck said:

As far as I remember (I have seen her a couple of times) the sails of AMERIGO VESPUCCI are (off-)white, so I am not sure that it is a good idea to tint them in some unsual colour. Would certainly give the ship a 'Disney' appearance 😲

 

Where is the problem with 27 sails, the only limit is your patience ...

 

The thinner the paper, the better. In fact, even the thinnest silk-paper is likely to be too thick, when considering real scale thickness.

 

Furled panneled sails are possible, but you may need to make them somewhat shorter in order to bring the furled volume to the scale volume. I have done it, but you may be struggling with seams breaking open (I know this from experience).

 

One could explore another strategy for those tighly furled sails in navy style: when furling, the sail would be embedded into a sort of pocket formed by the top-part of it; this is to keep water out of it; for the same reason the sail is stowed on top of the yard; one could sculpt this 'sausage' of sail in polymer clay or something like this and just wrap short lengths of silk-paper around it to simulate the panels.

 

thank you 

i had something like this in mind

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Kevin

[wefalck]

Kevin, I think the picture is misleading, because it was taken against the light, at around midday with high sun, and a bright background - then all sails look rather dark and all shadows blueish (as you can on the shaded white stripes on the hull). In reality the sails are off-white.

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, wefalck said:

The thinner the paper, the better.

I agree with Eberhard.   MAYBE experiment using silk span and matte medium instead of paper and diluted glue.   Sig makes three thicknesses, 00 being the thinnest, GM (medium) and SGM (heavy)    https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-silkspan-tissue?variant=465592221705    There is a great booklet by David Antscherl at Seawatch books, You Tube videos, and a lot of discussions here at MSW on using this material, including painting (off white or any other color as needed), making reinforcing pieces, and more.

Allan

[Kevin]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

I agree with Eberhard.   MAYBE experiment using silk span and matte medium instead of paper and diluted glue.   Sig makes three thicknesses, 00 being the thinnest, GM (medium) and SGM (heavy)    https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-silkspan-tissue?variant=465592221705    There is a great booklet by David Antscherl at Seawatch books, You Tube videos, and a lot of discussions here at MSW on using this material, including painting (off white or any other color as needed), making reinforcing pieces, and more.

Allan

im still unable to find a stockist in the UK for silkspan, been trying all afternoon

[wefalck]

Try art-suppliers or (Internet) shops for paper and book restorers, they use such paper to double up damaged pages, for instance.

 

Did a quick search: https://store.bookbinding.co.uk/store/category/95/456/Conservation-Grade-%26-Weight/

 

There must be many more shops like this.

Edited July 20, 2022 by wefalck

[Keith Black]

 

6 hours ago, Kevin said:

im still unable to find a stockist in the UK for silkspan, been trying all afternoon

 Kevin, you might try these folks.

 

https://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk/materials/covering/tissue?is_ajax=1&p=1

[Kevin]

3 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 

 Kevin, you might try these folks.

 

https://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk/materials/covering/tissue?is_ajax=1&p=1

Thank you Keith, i believe i have found somewhere that can supply Modelspan, i need to read everything again to see what to use on it

[allanyed]

Hi Kevin

If you do a search here at MSW on silkspan or silk span there is mention of a You Tube presentation in one or two of the discussions that may answer your questions.  It is similar to the methods in Swan IV Supplement on making sails.  Seawatch Books offers the booklet for about $8 if it is stock.

Allan