Cutty Sark by Nenad

[NenadM]

 

 After front companionway, next on line is a little research about - hatches

 

Campbell`s plans

 

There are three of them, all on main deck: two „hatches“ – one fore, one central and one „booby hatch“ at back on aft deck

 

 

Fore and central hatches are same look, central is a bit larger

They have two rows with 10 coverings each

 

 

 

Booby Hatch looks quite different – raised entrance

 

 

Sergal Roma plans

 

Here, things look quite different

 

Fore and central hatch have gratings (!) and they are equal

Booby hatch looks similar as on C-plan

 

 

Revel and Airfix

 

Too much simplification for my taste , not valuable to consider more

 

 

 

 

 

Artesania Latina

 

AL follows C-plans, quite right

Fore and central hatch are similar as on C-plans, different size, same type of covering

Bobby hatch is also similar

 

 

Billing boats

 

Fore and central are the same, with some kind of covering not seen on another plans

Booby is something undefined with doors

 

 

 

And Mantua

 

 

 

Ok, let`s see what photos can tell us

 

 

 

 

Fore hatch

 

Fore hatch do not exist more, as a hatch.

Now, this is visitor`s entrance with glass-steel construction

 

 

But, on some photos (Thank you very much Lou, again !!! ) there existed different solution !!!!

 

 

Central hatch

 

This hatch is only which stayed as hatch. Structure and covering is unknown for me, because on all photos I can find of central hatch, it is covered with some kind of awning

 

 

 

Except on only one interesting photo I found long ago

 

 

You can se completely different covering (comparing to C-plans) – six panels with wire netting, and each has own cover !!!!!

 

Hmmm

  

Booby hatch

 

Bobby hatch did not exist long time ago, and I can not find any photo of it

 

Now, at place where booby hatch was, there is rear entrance under deck for visitors, similar as on fore hatch place

 

 

So, what is purpose of this analyze ?

 

Considering I plan to spread all sails, it sounds logical to set Her on state as She was on sea. That leads me to C-plans solution (with improvisations and imagination how Booby hatch was looking)

 

But, couple questions stay opened:

 

How to cover fore and central hatch – as on C-plans or with gratings? Or as upper photo with six gratings panels ?

 

And, to cover them with awning  or not ?

 

Maybe is the best, but the more complicated solution – one with covering as on C-plans, another with gratings ( I`ll see in my scale what kind of gratings looks better, and is it possible at all, or it is possible to me to make classical gratings structure on classic way I had seen on MSW), and both covered with awning to half

 

We`ll see ... on my scale, hatches had next dimension:

 

 

 

Hmmm ... this will be really interesting and really challenge !

 

  

Edited October 14, 2016 by Nenad

[mtaylor]

Nenad,

 

I think what you're calling an awning is just a canvas cover over the hatch which would have been normal for the ship at sea. I've seen these in some pictures and in other pictures, it's just the plain wood slats.  The hatches were for access to the cargo area and so had to be protected.  On ships with grates, those were to provide light and fresh air to the crew working on the lower deck.

 

You might ask this in the Deck Furniture area if no one else answers.

[NenadM]

Thanks Mark for your input. Stupid Google translate and my English. I mean water-resistant and water-proof canvas/linen

 

Jud, why you deleted your post ? Your words have significant sense, and helped me to clear things in my head !!!!

 

After Jud`s input ( thank you !) things become clear to me. Gratings are, even they look nice as detail on model, out of question on any way. On war-ships gratings have sense. On trade ship - no. Most of Her working life as CS, She was carrying wool and tea, and water protection just had to be safe. So - as on C-plans +/- canvas to the half.

 

And a booby hatch as it was presented on C-plans

 

So, let me make some working drawings first 

 

 

BTW, can you imagine smelt under deck full of tea? Or full of wool ? People with sensitive nose can not be sailors those days

 

Brrrrrr

Edited October 16, 2016 by Nenad

[cog]

Nenad,

 

Bilges of woodenships, war or commercial never smelled ... pleasant. However, if you stay in that odor long enough, you won't smell it anymore ...

[NenadM]

Nenad,

 

Bilges of woodenships, war or commercial never smelled ... pleasant. However, if you stay in that odor long enough, you won't smell it anymore ...

 

As some people, Carl. In XXI century. Waiting for spring to take a bath/shower, and killing all around them in mean time.  

Edited October 16, 2016 by Nenad

[jud]

Nenad, I deleted my post because I did not wish to sound like I was telling you what to do, and thought that post was borderline after reviewing all of your research. As Mark indicated, there was a cover on top of the hatch boards which were supported by the removable hatch beams. The hatches I have seen, used a couple of layers of old tarps over the hatch boards as pads with a good treated tarp over all. That treated tarp was pulled taught and over the combings, tucked between the hatch combing and the battens which were then wedged in tightly against the hatch combings using the clips and wedges. Sometimes for long spans there were flat iron bands placed over the tarp that were clipped to the hatch and being two pieces were connected with a long bolt which was tightened after the bands were in place. This is how it was done on the 3 LSTs that I rode for the main hatch and the ramp cover on the Forecastle. Only drawing I have is in my Americium Merchant Seaman's Manual. You can see some Battens, Clips and Wedges in a couple of your latest photos. Covering hatches was done this way for a very long time.

jud

Edited October 16, 2016 by jud

[NenadM]

Fore hatch, rough works

 

[NenadM]

Fore hatch - done

 

 

 

 

 

I was playing with acrylic to get "weathered" look

 

And of course, luck of patience and luck of thinking again. I forgot that I have two of them to make, and that both have to be equal or similar color. Now, it will be very dificult to hit right color for another.

 

Not boring with me

Edited October 20, 2016 by Nenad

[cog]

You can always repaint the first Looks good though. Will you be blackening the brass?

[NenadM]

I am not sure for now, Carl. Maybe I leave them to visualy underline their metal structure. I am afraid if I blacken them, they will look as black dots in this scale

Edited October 19, 2016 by Nenad

[popeye the sailor]

shouldn't be hard for you........you've had lots of practice   looking very good  

[keelhauled]

very nice hatches!  the last photo you have of the actual cutty has the canvas and the iron bars with their wedges that were used to "batten down the hatches"  I don't know if you've ever heard of that phrase, but that is what they are speaking of.   Really nice work on such a small scale!

 

Marc

[NenadM]

shouldn't be hard for you........you've had lots of practice   looking very good  

 

Thanks Denis. Interesting thing is learning curve, which I was reading of on MSW, but not conscious about it`s full meaning until i started making this little things which makes crowd on all decks. With every one of them, my limits moved forward one step. And my ambitions, too. Just amazing

 

Ambitions run faster than my limits. Just for now, I hope

 

 

very nice hatches!  the last photo you have of the actual cutty has the canvas and the iron bars with their wedges that were used to "batten down the hatches"  I don't know if you've ever heard of that phrase, but that is what they are speaking of.   Really nice work on such a small scale!

 

Marc

 

Thanks Marc. No, I didn`t hear that phrase before, but I understand it`s point. I am considering possibility to make canvas, to "batten" them to half and to left both hatches semi-covered, allowing coverings to be seen. Main problem I see for now is  - what material to use for canvas - Any cloth I can imagine is too thick and too rough for this job in my scale, and there is a risk to look like covering with mattress or with concrete block. Do not forget that hatch has outside dimensions 26 mm x 22 mm.

 

I have enough time to consider this until I make another hatch 

Edited October 21, 2016 by Nenad

[cog]

Nenad,

 

You could use some plastic, and paint in in a beige weathered look. If you use cloth the weave of the material will probably be to course for the scale you build, as you wrote  ...

[mtaylor]

Wrapping paper tissue (painted) might just be the right thing for canvas...  

 

When you find the answer to "how to extend a day".. let me know, will you?  Not enough hours at this time. 

[jud]

Hatches were normally covered and battened down regardless of weather. Where better to store the tarps, and wedges than where they are used. Covering the ventilation grates on a warship might wait until water was expected on deck that would overflow the combings or heavy rain was expected and the awnings were not rigged.

jud

[Jack12477]

Kleenex brand facial tissue works to simulate canvas. Just saturate with diluted 50-50 white glue, fold the tissue to increase thickness, ten lay over hatch, form with fingers to fit hatch, then let try. Paint when dry. I use to use it to simulate tarps lashed on model tanks, half-tracks, etc.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Jack12477

[NenadM]

Second (central) hatch done (almost)

 

[NenadM]

At first I want to thank everyone who hit like button and who participate in my experiments. Couple of hard fulfilled busy days after me, and one lazy day ( yesterday) with resting, cooking experiments, swimming pool and nice chat with Princess who had hard day, not much time to answer

 

 

A batten is commonly used in English " a long flat strip of squared timber or metal used to hold something in place or as a fastening against a wall."

 

So one " battens" off an  irregular wall before fitting internal boarding etc.

 

"Batten down the hatches" is used -  in UK English anyway  - as meaning to prepare for a rough period.

So on a vessel you would put the battens across the hatches to hold them firmly in place.

With "grating"ed hatches it was normal to cover first with a tarpaulin to waterproof

 

Thanks Spy. I have some difficulties with English specific words, so maybe I made mistake, mainly caused with G-translate I use. For instance, when I type serbian word "cirada", which literally means "special waterproof sheet" usually seen on trucks  covering opened cargo space , I get several suggestions: canvas/linen/panel, and when I redirect dictionary to get closer meaning, I got ... chaos

 

But, i think I understand what you mean.

 

Mainly, there is dilemma about using battens across on type of hatch as presented on C-plans I made. There are not on C-plans, and in this scale - is there any point for them ? Particularly if I plan canvas opened to half.

 

For example, something similar I made when I was making deck entrance below steering wheel from 0,5mm wide paper strip colored with gold acrylic, as on pictures below

 

 

Similar dimensions as hatches, and there could be two longitudinal very narrow battens by hatch

 

A bit of time to rethink is needed 

 

 

Nenad,

 

You could use some plastic, and paint in in a beige weathered look. If you use cloth the weave of the material will probably be to course for the scale you build, as you wrote  ...

 

Thanks, Carl. I am not familiar with plastic, and I do not dare to experiment with molds and casting

 

 

Wrapping paper tissue (painted) might just be the right thing for canvas...  

 

When you find the answer to "how to extend a day".. let me know, will you?  Not enough hours at this time. 

 

Ha! Mark, how do you read my mind from another side of planet about paper solution ?

 

If I find a way to extend a day, I`ll probably get a Nobel`s prize ... , so you will know it ! Working hard on  that solution !

 

 

Hatches were normally covered and battened down regardless of weather. Where better to store the tarps, and wedges than where they are used. Covering the ventilation grates on a warship might wait until water was expected on deck that would overflow the combings or heavy rain was expected and the awnings were not rigged.

jud

 

 

Thanks Jud for your input. You said it very clear so now I understand it at all

 

Kleenex brand facial tissue works to simulate canvas. Just saturate with diluted 50-50 white glue, fold the tissue to increase thickness, ten lay over hatch, form with fingers to fit hatch, then let try. Paint when dry. I use to use it to simulate tarps lashed on model tanks, half-tracks, etc.

 

Thanks Jack. Facial kleenex, or any multilayer paper ( e.g. toilet) was exactly I thought about after Mark`s post. Some experiments has to be made, and some playing, also

[NenadM]

First hatch half covered with canvas

 

 

 

 

Canvas are made from regular copy paper as base, with one layer from toilet 3-layer paper glued with diluted white glue. Thin layer of acrylic colors over to get this weathered look

 

Great thanks Mark and Jack for bright idea!

 

Can it pass ?

Edited October 25, 2016 by Nenad

[jud]

One reason for the top bands of battens. Ramp cover on Forecastle of LST 601. No green water yet.

 

[Jack12477]

Looks realistic, Nenad, glad I could help.

[NenadM]

Jud, you are quite right, my friend

 

There are some old b/w clips on Youtube with sail ships on rough weather

 

E.g

 

 

And if you look careful you can see this in right down corner of photo

 

 

 

 

 

Considering my idea is to make model with all sails on, it means nice calm weather, and it seems logic hatches to be partialy temporary uncovered (somebody is doing something with them), because I want to show their structure and construction

 

Thanks for your support and explanation

[jud]

Not finding fault with what you are doing Nenad, only intended to show the top battens over that large hatch cover for the ramp, had those top battens on the main hatch also, few even mention or know such things existed. The ramp under those covered hatch boards was used so vehicles had a derivable direct route to and from the Main deck. You can see what we called Tortoise Backs for tie down points on the main deck, the tie down points in the tank deck were flush, called Clover Leaves. Those LST's rode different than deep hulled ships, their flat bottoms and blunt bows caused rolling, pounding and lots of spray,

jud

Edited October 25, 2016 by jud

[keelhauled]

Looking good! very realistic look to the canvas!

[mtaylor]

Very well done, my friend.  I'm glad it worked for you.  

[michael mott]

Nenad What a great job on the canvas, you must be very happy with the look.

 

Michael

[NenadM]

Looks realistic, Nenad, glad I could help.

 

You are always wellcome with your ideas, Jack !

 

 

Looking good! very realistic look to the canvas!

 

Thx Marc, that was a goal

 

Very well done, my friend.  I'm glad it worked for you.  

 

Keep on pushing me, Mark !

 

Nenad What a great job on the canvas, you must be very happy with the look.

 

Michael

 

Thx Michael. I am satisfied with result, which is above my expectations when I started applying acrylic layers. Second time I run in my "impatience mod". As you can see on upper pictures, I did not paint both hatches simultaneously, and they have different hue. I hardly corrected this. And again ... instead to make both canvas together, I made only one and color it as it is. And having in mind that I get this color using more than 10 layers of diluted and mixed white, brown, blue yellow and black acrylic, it is almost impossible to get equal color on another canvas.

What to do ? Another canvas will be bent and coupled, and laid on hatch with belonging rope ...

 

On this way, difference in shade and hue will not be visible, I hope   

[Mirabell61]

Nenad,

 

hatch with partial drawn back canvas, great detail  

 

Nils

[cog]

You always come out on top, Nenad. So do not complain about a slight colour difference

 

Tarpaulins will not have the same colour, since they get dirty, and will be replaced over time, but the chance they get changed simultaneously is small