PT 109 by popeye the sailor - Dumas

[CDW]

Your wood work looks superb, Denis. Seems like the Dumas models are primarily designed for RC, not so much for scale model displays. That's why there is only a single 2 blade prop including in the running hardware.

 

Just now, Egilman said:

As an aside, the hulls weren't made of plywood as we understand plywood, they were made of mahogany strips, bias laid, with heavy canvas in between the inner and outer layer... secured on the inside with copper screws and outside by bronze screws, thousands of them.... Very Very light, yet very strong and easily repairable in the field without specialized tools..... A very unique design.....

 

Really taught me some things I did not know about PT boats here. Very interesting composite material. 

[GrandpaPhil]

Very cool!

 

I built this kit back in 2012.  I bought add on propellers (but only 2) from a hobby shop and scratch built the rest of the running gear.

 

It is still one of my centerpieces.

[popeye the sailor]

what size did you buy for it Phil.......nice to hear from someone who has built this model.  were your props in the same direction or did you you do one left and one right?

 

that may be the case CW,  but I would think a three blade prop would give more thrust......this would like move like a tug boat in the water   

 

I continued with the helm structure.........but I did come up with an idea to deliver cement to the loose seams.  I would need to devise a long tube,  with a bend on the end......what to use was still being decided.  the two long stringers were cleaned up.  the directions here were really confusing,  as it directs you to cut the ends off.......I did one of them still unsure,  considering the slots in the bulkheads.  I tried to fit the other one,  and the true nature of the direction was revealed.  I had messed up!     thankfully,  it's not the end of the world and easy to remedy.  I cemented the two stringers in there.  there is a center stringer that runs from #5 to the stern.......two slotted stops are cemented at each end of the run.  these were trimmed and fitted in place.

 

I will box each end of the stringer I had cut in when I'm done.  I'll have to sand the top flat {fore and aft} so the sheer will lay on it flat.

when dry,  the center stringer was cemented in place.  as seen in previous pictures,  a single stringer was cemented in the center from #5 to the bow stem.  

I also cut off all the tabs from the bulkheads....

 

more sanding to be done......very noisy due to the tabs that didn't see any glue {I may go over them with cement}.  the port stringer in the front butted up and was repaired easily......for the stern though,  I will need to add some wood.

 

[popeye the sailor]

this was a huge session.......the main part of the helm structures was good.   it was when I got to the point of assembling the instrument panel,  where it got confusing.   the sides and front wall panels was cemented to the frame.  the inner wall on the starboard side was also added.

 

 

I added a few more frame pieces to add strength........edges were sanded flush.  then the roof was added.

 

 

the area for the turret needs to be cut out.   I was thinking to cut into the turret tube instead,  but I  think it might be more work than its worth.  I'm getting ahead on myself here,  me thinks.   the edges of the roof were also sanded flush and to the appropriate angles.   there is a wall that juts from the port side wall....I began flashing it out.

 

on the backside,  a block is to be utilized under this seat....a form of locker I suppose.  this is all shaped to the camber of the deck.  rather than do that,  I'll simply box it in....plenty of cast off wood to go around { I have an unbelievable amount inside the box}.

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

the cabin aft of the helm..........here I made a mistake.  on the starboard side,  I cemented the 1/8 frame strip on the wrong side of the panel.  since time has passed since gluing it on,  the thought of removing it may result in damage to the part.  I came up with an alternate solution for the assembly.   to avoid interfering with a window,  the cabin bulkhead was cemented further in....the long end of that wall was supposed to be towards the stern.

the part that boxes in the turret,  is this short piece.......

so I made a longer piece,  cut and trimmed to fit into the cabin bulkhead.....

the outer wall was added to the starboard half,  leaving the port side open.

pieces of 1/8 strip was added the the inner corners to add strength.  all the outer corners and roof surfaces were sanded.

the rood lays on leaving the cut out for the turret open to accept it.

 

cemented in place,  the roof was supported with rafters.......and yep,   more sanding  

 

they supply a plastic instrument panel.  which is supported with an odd cut wall panel.  this panel doesn't seem to fit very well...here are the plans:

 

with what I see,  these parts would eat up most of the space,  leaving very little for that port side wall panel {C16 & C17}.........and again with the block of wood.  I did this a bit differently.   first,  the dash top was added to the assembly.

[popeye the sailor]

more on the interior of the helm.........

then the instrument panel face.......

the companionway door is on the right of the instrument panel .....all under there was closed off.   with the port divider wall dry fitted in place,  there is enough room.

 

 

this is the way the layout looks like on deck.  there is still more to add........I'll get to that a bit later.....I now want to see what the armament looks like.

[GrandpaPhil]

Denis,

  My props were 1 1/2” across.  They were RC props that I found at a hobby shop.  They were in the same direction. I used dowel rods for the prop shafts.

Edited December 17, 2020 by GrandpaPhil

[popeye the sailor]

there is the engine room 'roof' still to make {it's a raised hold on the deck}.   we finally arrive to where I'm at with the project.  it's the reason why I started the log......Mike {Mog}  is assembling the guns........and they look very different than mine.  mostly made of metal,  they seem a bit crude and lack finer detail.  if I were to make this an R/C boat,  I'd probably be good with it,  but where I'm planning to do a static model,  I'm tempted to go an extra mile or two.  Mog's doing a fine job with his......he even has the turrets caged up.   I'm not there yet.  here is where I am on the 20 mm gun and the 50 cal machine guns.  do not try to solder this metal......it doesn't end well.......'least not for me anyway.  I ended up using CA.

 

I've add a bit more to the machine guns......gotta make the shoulder rests for them.   I broke a few bit drilling the holes.  I'm going to look them up to see what they really look like,  and perhaps I'll try to scratch build them { the machine guns anyway}.   the other thing is the running hardware......I just took these pictures,  so they're hot off the press    the running hardware is just that.......the hardware.  you get one rudder and one prop assembly. 

if I planned to run her,  I'd need to get the motor{s},  rudder servo,  and speed servo {I say motors because I'd want two props}.   if Santa smiles on me for Christmas,  I might find a kit,  complete with all the hardware,  to build an R/C vessel,  under the tree    here are the diagrams that Dumas supplies.

 

I went out a short time ago and cleaned the driveway due to the wind........the storm is over.....  depending where you were in the state,  you could have seen as much as 3 feet!   it hasn't snowed that much in quite a few years.  when I was a young lad,  living in Weare N.H.......a stone's throw from Goffstown,  New Boston {nowhere NEAR Mass.},  and Concord,  two feet was a normal storm for us.  but I'm happy.......we will have a white Christmas.

[popeye the sailor]

I think that's larger than 33 mm........the one in the hardware kit is 1 1/8 {28-30 mm}.  it gives me something to work with    thanks!

[Old Collingwood]

Looking really good Denis,    something about  these type of boats  - guess I just like them.

 

OC.

[lmagna]

At this rate of building you will have this kit done in about a week!

 

It was good talking to you as always Denis. It is also fun getting you in trouble by suggesting where you can spend more money! It could become one of my favorite indoor sports in this shut in life.

 

EG is right in his description of the hull construction. That was why I sent you the picture showing the process when we were talking yesterday. These were pretty large boats when you think of what we call plywood today and I don't think you could go down to your local hardware store and buy large sheets of highly compressed and glued together sheets of wood like what we call "Plywood" today. Instead they used the method described by EG to fabricate what most people describe as "plywood" but could in reality be described as a laminated planking system. 

 

"The Elco and Higgins companies both used lightweight techniques of hull construction which included two layers of double diagonal mahogany planking utilizing a glue-impregnated cloth layer between inner and outer planks. These planks were held together by thousands of copper rivets and bronze screws. The overall result was an extremely light and strong hull, yet it could be easily repaired from battle damage at the front lines."

 

As for the props, the Navy specs called for 3 three blade twenty eight to thirty inch props, all right hand  At 1/30 scale this would work out to a little under 1" diameter, (or about 25mm).

Manufacturer: Federal Mogul Equi-Poise.

The following pitch and diameter information is based on PT historian Andy Small's research. His research shows that Elco 80' boats were equipped with 28" diameter propellers until PT 613 (direct drive boats) which used 29" diameter propellers. Pitch = inches traveled per revolution (with no slip) and relates to the blades angle to the hub.

Center: 28" diameter x 28 pitch, right hand.

Outboard: 28" diameter x 29" pitch, right hand.

Per Feb 2, 1943 BUSHIPS PT-103 Class Propeller drawing 78095:
Diameter: 28".
Pitch: 28".
Weight: 61 pounds.
Material: bronze casting to material specification Federalite-55.
Hub: 5.5" length, 3.5" front diameter, 3" rear diameter.

Per the Navy build manual:

There shall be 3 aluminum-manganese-bronze right hand turning propellers per vessel. The diameter of the propellers shall not exceed 30 inches. Hub length will not exceed 8 1/2 inches.

SECTION A-1, GENERAL, Principal dimensions. The following data are for information only:
Draft, normal, under 28" propellers: 5' 3/4"

SECTION S8, TRIAL REQUIREMENTS:
(a) Propeller test. This test shall be conducted in accordance with instructions issued by the Bureau of Ships for the type boat of each boatbuilder for the purpose of selecting the proper propeller for service conditions. Such a test shall be repeated as conditions of loading or design changes require.

 

I also used two props when I built my RC version but I was able to use a set of bronze cast props that Dumas used to sell that not only operated quite well but looked almost scale in the process. Like many nice things, those props are no longer available. But if you are willing to put out the money, (There is that word again that gets you in trouble every time I talk to you) you can buy some fairly nice cast props that almost look like they are the right prop for what you might need @ https://www.harbormodels.com/pd2511.html

 

At the speed that you are building this information is probably already too late but hope it is informative anyway.

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by lmagna

[mog]

looking really good,  we talked about thinking out of the box in some areas  in the cockpit I reshaped the control panel area to fit my needs as I found the instruction book misleading ,anyway your getting there , photo  from Jeff Ds site  pt103.com highly  recommended for anyone doing a PT , I use it daily for my build.    Mike 

[lmagna]

I second Mike on his opinion on the PT103 site. Definitely a one stop shopping source for anything PT. Pretty well organized also.

[popeye the sailor]

yea........the holidays put a crimp on more research,  but I think I have that site bookmarked too.  the Higgins / Nasty Class is particularly interesting.  I've been wanting to get back to her.........adding the gun wales and {chine} spray rails.   I never did tell you how I got glue in along the chine / bow panels.....   what made me remove it from the plywood board,  was I was sanding.....pressing down along the seam,  I heard the bond break....that's when I stopped. 

   what I did was cut a diamond shaped hole in a drinking straw.  bending it there,  it was sealed with clear scotch tape.  it was then pressed  onto the nozzle of the glue bottle........I was able to squirt some glue along the chine stringer and spread it too   when I run the spray rails,  as I get to the bow,  they will run over the seam,  covering it.  it will not be seen   

 

unrelated..........the admiral has been looking for one of my Christmas gifts.  it was in limbo in post..........well.......it came it today!  you'd have thought it was for her,  with the squeals going on......riled up Gibbs even!  in it was the IJN Shokaku.....but something else that the admiral forgot.......a smaller scale of the Billing Boats Coast Guard Waverly life boat!  she looked through her order invoices....it was there......she must have been confused.  I'll post pictures in the 'what have you received today' thread......crazy! 

[Egilman]

On 1/5/2021 at 10:17 AM, popeye the sailor said:

yea........the holidays put a crimp on more research,  but I think I have that site bookmarked too.  the Higgins / Nasty Class is particularly interesting.  I've been wanting to get back to her.........adding the gun wales and {chine} spray rails.   I never did tell you how I got glue in along the chine / bow panels.....   what made me remove it from the plywood board,  was I was sanding.....pressing down along the seam,  I heard the bond break....that's when I stopped. 

   what I did was cut a diamond shaped hole in a drinking straw.  bending it there,  it was sealed with clear scotch tape.  it was then pressed  onto the nozzle of the glue bottle........I was able to squirt some glue along the chine stringer and spread it too   when I run the spray rails,  as I get to the bow,  they will run over the seam,  covering it.  it will not be seen   

 

Adapt and overcome brother, a big part of this hobby is not only art, it's solving all the problems we create for ourselves.... Nice solution.... One I wouldn't have thought of...

[popeye the sailor]

I'm sure you would have come up with it,  if you were in the same situation    kinda neat that it doubled as a spatula as well .  I've been wanting to get back to her,  to get the rails on......spray rails at the chines,  the clamps and the gunwales,  but the holidays helped to keep me at bay.    not only that,  I'll need to order some extra stuff,  since I want to have the two rudder and screw arrangement,  this should be done before the sheer is put on.   this way,  there'll  be more than enough room to do what needs to be done.  

[popeye the sailor]

I managed to get a bit more time on the hull...actually it was a couple of days ago.   I'm still leaning towards ordering a second running hardware kit,  but I'm also thinking of a way to simply scratch building what I need.  I only got to the chine spray rails,  but I also looked into the gunwales and how the sheer fits on,  seeing that the sheer is larger than the deck surface.  of course the deck surface needs to be sanded.......makes a god-awful racket whenever I start to sand it.   the spray rails cover the panel joints at the bow nicely.....I'm glad that worked out  

 

 

when I can get the sheer on,  and fill the small gaps I see,  then I can give her a coat of resin,  starting that process.   when I get to the rudders and screws,  I will need to add thicker wood inside to sturdy the assemblies.......something for the future.

[pwog]

Looking good!

[Egilman]

I always liked the looks of a deep "V" planing hull, they look like they are moving even when sitting still.....

 

Those hulls were amazing, easily handle 20 kts in ten foot seas.... (and do it all day long)

Edited February 19, 2021 by Egilman

[popeye the sailor]

thanks gents.......just pick'in at her for the moment.  still a lot to do before I put the sheer on........want to have plenty of room to get in there.  a few of the joints will need a tiny bit of filler.......I've been doing the glue and sawdust method as I assembled the hull,  so they are fairly minimal.  the admiral still is amazed at the size of the hull........wait till she sees it with some of the structure on it   

[Edwardkenway]

Looks good, I'm also looking forward to seeing the top works begin.

I don't envy you your weather, not that keen on the white stuff🥶😬

Glad to hear you be getting the jab soon, I am still waiting to hear when I get mine, although the Admiral has already had hers, along with my two daughters who work for the NHS.

Stay safe and stay warm😉

 

[popeye the sailor]

good news Ed and all look'in in..........we got moved up!   I took last Saturday off......odd but with good reason.  I took a call from the folks who schedule the Covid shots 'round these parts and asked if I would like to move my date up.......I said sure!  he gave me tomorrow as the new date 2/26/21.......and while I had him on the phone,  I asked about getting the admiral's date moved up as well.  he checked and her name was on the list too........so she's getting hers right after me    I can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!    we're still doing all we can to stay safe  

 

you can see the angle that the shaft is at when it gets to the hull.   this needs to be correct.......fingers crossed   

 

 

 

I've also been doing some look'in 'round for hardware....looks like I'd be better to order another dumas running hardware kit and a pair of 30 mm {1 3/16 three blade} props.  I did find a different kit......but I don't feel like shelling out $155.00.  the set up I'll be doing will cost $122.00 before all is done as it is    I made a small bit of progress.......the gunwales and clamps are done,  and I added reinforcements for the shafts and rudders.  now I gotta get the budget directors Ok to order the stuff I need.  the starboard gunwale was the first strip to add to the hull......I started at the stern

 

 

this is a 1/8X1/8 strip...goes from the stern to the bow.   this in total will add 1/4 to the deck surface,  which is good......the sheer panels appear to be larger than the existing surface.  I was getting round to the bow however,  and the strip broke........just couldn't navigate the curvature.

so I cut off the bad part and prepped it again,  to receive a section.  with that fixed.......I soaked the section in warm water and bent it slightly,  the clamp was added below the gunwale.  it doesn't go all the way to the bow.  the port side gunwale faired better......I soaked that strip's end before gluing it on.

 

 

the clamp was added to the port side after the gunwale had dried.  I didn't snap any other pictures than these.  looking at some of these pictures,  you'll see the stern and the protrusion at the top.  I dry fitted the sheer panels and found that this will need to be removed,  or else the sheer will stick out past the bow.......not a super big deal.  I was wondering about that anyway....I'll just cover the seam with a 1/8 thin strip {it's all good   }  now would be a good time to line off the rudder holes and the shaft bracket position and hole.  as said,  I added some thickness to these areas,  so when I do drill the holes,  there will be some meat there.  templates are the next thing on the menu

 

[Jim Lad]

How on earth did I miss this build, mate?  She looks terrific.

 

Even better is the news that you and Phyllis are getting your Covid shots today.

 

John

[Egilman]

4 hours ago, popeye the sailor said:

good news Ed and all look'in in..........we got moved up!   I took last Saturday off......odd but with good reason.  I took a call from the folks who schedule the Covid shots 'round these parts and asked if I would like to move my date up.......I said sure!  he gave me tomorrow as the new date 2/26/21.......and while I had him on the phone,  I asked about getting the admiral's date moved up as well.  he checked and her name was on the list too........so she's getting hers right after me    I can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!    we're still doing all we can to stay safe  

Excellent Brother! The Admiral got her second last Saturday so that was a load off her mind.......

 

The boat is coming along nice good to see some progress my friend....

[popeye the sailor]

thanks all.......we even have our second dose date........did it all with one phone call.  although,  I don't know why the WalGreens on Varney St wasn't in the schedule for us.....we are a couple of blocks from that Pharmacy.  the one we're going to is just across the river........had I known.   we were there yesterday and the girl behind the counter told us they were doing it....heck,  they just finished off a small room off the pharmacy for just this purpose.  hey....I'm not going to quibble....we're getting it......that's all that matters  

 

thanks John.......so,  you didn't know about this one?  me.......with my umpteen projects....I think all I need now is a sub build,  and I'd be full circle     it's gonna be slow at first,  so you won't miss much.  once I can get the rest of the hardware I need,  and can install the props and rudders....then I can get the hull resin coated and the sheer on.  so glad to have you aboard John  

 

thanks Egilman......I hope you've gotten your shots too.   

[Jack12477]

You guys are all lucky. Admiral and I are both eligible but still can't find an appointment even at the Walgreens 1/4 mile from us.  😟

[CDW]

You guys can have mine (shot). 😄 

Great looking PT Denis. The hull is beautiful.

[Egilman]

3 hours ago, popeye the sailor said:

....I hope you've gotten your shots too.   

Personally, I would rather have not at this time, but for her to get hers I had to get mine as well.... so yeah I've had my shots, wooff wooff.......

 

It happened kinda fast, no one would give her an appointment claiming they were full, so she called around for a couple of days... she got a referral to a patient coordinator at a local hospital who put her on a waiting list, a week later, they called her to come in and was asked if she had anyone around her.... Yeah me.... We live alone, her and I, so for her to get hers I had to get mine..... The rules are funny here in Washington...... (but what else is new)

Edited February 26, 2021 by Egilman

[popeye the sailor]

well......it's accomplished......we had our first dose of the vaccine!   I got a little dizzy around supper time,  but so far, so good    the admiral has been fine.

 

keep at it Jack......you'll get one soon  

 

don't know about that CD.......she's still an ugly duckling to me     she won't start looking good,  till I can finally get some paint on her.    with all that's gone on today,  all I've really been able to do,  is some work on the cannons for the Agilis.  thanks for the good word and the likes....more soon  

 

good you got it......live long and prosper  

Edited February 27, 2021 by popeye the sailor

[marktiedens]

Looking good!   Just got my first shot today.  One of my sons is married to a pharmacist, so she has been on the lookout for me.  They had 35 doses at her pharmacy that had to be administered today or tomorrow or they would be spoiled, so I rushed in & got`er done.

No ill effects.

 

Mark

Edited February 27, 2021 by marktiedens