How to simplyfi the build of a large ship?

[ubjs]

I'm thinking about how to most easily build this model, Vasa from Billing boats. Here on the forum, there are a lot of great constructions where the builders have probably spent hundreds of hours on their models. But I want to build the model in a simpler way, I just want something that looks ok for someone who is not a specialist in ship models. I am looking for tips on how I can simplify construction.

[ccoyle]

Um ... I'm not sure how one would do that. A kit is designed to go together a certain way. The only way I can think of to 'simplify' something like Vasa would be to leave off the ornamentation (in which case it wouldn't be a good likeness of the original). Or get a simpler kit, e.g. something in plastic.

[Baker]

Billings Vasa is not a simple kit that you can build quickly.
And if you try to do that, you will regret the time and money you spend on it.

 

free advice
Try building a small plastic model.

Done quickly and costs little money

[ubjs]

Billings Vasa is a fairly simple model, for example, the sculptures are greatly simplified.
After I bought it, there was a much better one in scale 1:65 which I also bought.
So my idea is to put Billings together first and then make a smaller effort.
One thing I have thought of myself is to either simplify the rigging or to build the model with masts cut 5 cm above the deck.
Thought there might be more ideas on what can be made easier.

 

 

 

 

[bolin]

Yes, not doing the rigging is a major simplification. It can still be a nice model. Closed gun

 ports is another option. But in the case of Vasa you will miss the characteristic lion heads. Not rigging the guns on the deck might also be an option.

[ccoyle]

3 hours ago, ubjs said:

One thing I have thought of myself is to either simplify the rigging or to build the model with masts cut 5 cm above the deck.

 

Stump masts is certainly an option. One thing I would caution about, based on my own experience, is building two models of the same subject. Once I build something a first time, I have essentially zero interest in building it again. Something to think about before making a big time investment in a kit that's not really the kit you want to build.

[amateur]

In case of Wasa, you can go for the Landstrom blue/gold colour scheme.

That will save you hours of painting, compared to the multi-coloured reconstruction of the Vasa-museet.

Although, I still don't see why you want to cut corners on this model. If you don't like the kit, don't build it, if you like it, pay proper attention to it.

Actually, the Billings kit can be used to get very convincing looking Vasa's.  I never saw convincing Corel or Sergal versions. The best (although also not in all wood choices)  is ofcourse the agostini-version. 

 

Jan

Edited April 1, 2021 by amateur

[ubjs]

After reading the answers here, I have to ask if I break any rule if I do not build the model in the ¨correct¨ way?
I was going to start a construction log, but now I doubt if this is the right forum.

[Blue Ensign]

There are no rules about building a model in any way you wish, but I think perhaps you are approaching the subject with the wrong mindset.

 

By its very nature ship modelling is generally not a quick fix activity, and in order to get a half decent result the planking and hull construction at least needs, and indeed takes, time and effort. There is no real way around the need to fair bulkheads so that the planks lay correctly. or to shape the planks to some degree.

 

Shortcuts generally involve leaving off detail or displaying a model without masting or rigging, for which there is a fine tradition in the form of Navy board style models.

 

Having said that, you are of course welcome to start a log, who knows, once you start  your enthusiasm may develop.

 

B.E.

 

 

[PietFriet]

I think everyone here is focussed on enjoying themselves building models. For many that includes learning and improving their ways of working. You obviously don't break any rules when not building the "correct" way but it is only natural that people will point that out; it's how they help other people to improve.

[Kevin]

spent £700,  build the hull, and throw the rest away

[ubjs]

Yes, maybe I shall throw everything in this box away. Really bad material, even if i only payed 400 I think its worth 100.

Thats the worst thing about kits, the material is really bad.

Maybe its a european thing, no one sells US kits in Sweden, apart från Eskader who sells Bluejacket, and what a difference compared to Billing boats.

[ubjs]

Luckily I bought an old Vasa-kit for 50 euro at a market, so I can replace the unusable parts.

The old things were not lasercut but straight and of better quality than in the new kit, says a lot I think.

 

I also like Master Korabel and now I understand what a big difference it is between different manufacturers.

I have at least 10 Billing kits on the shelf, no one to blaim but myself. But they are cheap so if I buy new good wood I think I could make boats of them.

 

[mtaylor]

I did the Billings Vasa.  The only wood I changed/added was for the hull planking.   If you haven't done so, goto the kit area and do a search on the Vasa and have a look at the logs.  Detailing is pretty much up to you.  Do as much or as little as you like.

[Gregory]

14 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

There are no rules about building a model in any way you wish, but I think perhaps you are approaching the subject with the wrong mindset.

I have to 2nd Blue Ensign on this.

 

The reason most wood ship kits are never finished is because even the most simple ones are not simple.

 

Take a look at the index of build logs.  Note how many are " Finished "  Note how many haven't been updated in 5 or more years..

 

Few people have the patience to see these kits through to the end..

Edited April 2, 2021 by Gregory

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

My old Wasa kit (Billings 1:100 - 1970s, now discontinued) is being modified to be closer to what is known today.  My skill level is 'intermediate', so I expect my model to be 'somewhere in the middle' of complexity as can be seen on other build sites.  My progress is slow, and seasonal obligations will further slow the work, but you are welcome to visit my Wasa build log - such that it is.  I get a lot of satisfaction thinking about what to do next on it, then making small steps.  There is no deadline, and I make no comparisons ... perhaps a Zen philosophy to modeling.  If you ask a Buddhist  who the Buddha is, you might get answers as diverse as;  you, me, there is no Buddha, this stick.  So it can be with ship modeling - you must seek your own path and chart your own course.  Meanwhile, have a look at everything this Forum has to offer.

[ubjs]

With two persons in this thread that have built Billings Vasa I try to ask a question about the construction in the beginning.

Billings suggest that I shall glue two lists 4x8 mm between frames 4 - 13.

If I do so I have to force the lists approx 15 mm down on the frame in the middle.

I dont like that to bend it so much, did you do that and how ?

Or did you do it another way?

 

I have glued all the frames to the keel.

 

 

[ubjs]

Try to post a picture.

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

My answer to your question, scratch building.  With a kit, you’re locked into the manufacturer’s building method, materials, etc.  When you build from scratch, you can use methods that you find to be easier.  You can also make use of higher quality materials.

 

Roger

[catopower]

Hi bujs,

 

Learn what you can and have fun. Remember that ship modeling is a personal experience and the ship model is yours to do with as you please.

 

When you ask questions about how to do something, invariably, you'll get a range of answers that are mostly meant to help you build a ship model kit in a way that will provide you with the best looking results. When you choose a different path, many of us are always going to want to tell you things to try to get you back on that path to the best looking model.

 

I started to post my own replies here in this thread a couple times. But, it's difficult as a long-time ship modeler to know how to encourage beginners without sounding controlling. So, I deleted them.

 

But, there have been some good ideas here about simplifying the build. And, though you refer to the Billing Boats Wasa as a simple kit, there's a reason they classify it as an expert level kit. So, just bear that in mind.

 

Hopefully, by simplification, you don't mean to rush the build. That may result in crooked frames, twisted hull, bulging or uneven planking. But, if understand you correctly, this is going to be something of a "sacrificial" build? That is one that you make all the mistakes on and plan to throw away if it's bad enough. Or is it that you want to really build a nice model here, but maybe less detailed? That's the only way I can see building this model in a "simpler" way.

 

In any case, good luck with both builds!

 

[ubjs]

I should have written a smile beside the statement of simple.

I thought about the qualty of the material.

But I think that its mostly the size of the build that makes its a experience rate.

Otherwise its like every other ship, just more planks, more cannons and a lot of rigging.

I´m absolutely still a beginner in this hobby, even if I have built some hulls I have never completed a build.

I have built the hulls of Norden, Billing boats, Swedish gun boat, Amati, Spray, Bluejacket, Lilla Dan, Billing boats (my first ship, bought and started 1976!), Phoenix, Master Korabel.

Some of them have stopped on a problem in the build and Lilla Dan needs wood that I cant get because Covid. Phoenix is on hold because I need more training in building in wood, it is a very good kit but you must be very precise in building it, no tolerances.

Maybe I just like planking a lot.

 

I have now started Vasa because that was the ship I wanted to build from the beginning.

Because of the pandemi I think that I maybe not have so much time left and I should use it as good as

possible.

[catopower]

Hi ubjs, maybe you're like me. I enjoy building hulls and I too like planking a lot, so I have a few hulls sitting around of various ships. Some are solid hull, some are plank-on-bulkhead, some are from kit, and some are from scratch. Eventually, when I finish a project, I look back at the various hulls to see if one of them speaks to me and asks to be turned into a finished model. Or maybe just to be more further toward completion.

 

But, sometimes, it's more a matter of the dream of completing the model. I imagine how much I'd like to complete a kit, then I acquire the kit, get part way through it, but then I get a little stuck. Then a new, pretty model kit comes along, and it's too temping to switch to that one instead.  I don't know if this is the case for you, but it's easy to get caught up into it, especially when you have enough financial means to acquire the kits.

 

Personally, I'd suggesting taking one of the simpler kits you've started to completion. Then, come back to this Vasa kit. Then, you'll get more experience with the detailing of the wooden model kit, and some of the issues you will face on the smaller model, and more quickly overcome them. 

 

But, it's completely up to you. You have to build what you enjoy building!

 

Heck, what's another planked hull in the grand scheme of life? 😁

 

Edit: As I write this, I am thinking about how I am working to finish my Hanse Kogge von Bremen card model, and my Japanese coastal transports, both in the rigging stage, while I recently cut the parts to build the hull of the cutter Cheerful, cut the backbone or false keel for the hull of the French lugger Le Coureur, and am prepping the plans for a build of the French cutter Le Cerf. I can't help it, I love building hulls. But, I do have to restrain myself often!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by catopower

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

You have a much later version that the old 1:100 model I'm 're-starting' after a very long pause.  If I were starting the build (in light of experience learned) I would develop 'additional bulkheads (doubling the number) to make the transitions easier.  This would require making slots in the keel to accommodate the additional bulkheads.  Change #2 would be to glue basswood spacers in between the bulkheads (or even balsa) that would help keep their spacing consistent and to allow for a sooth 'fairing' between bulkheads.  Where the gun decks are to have ports, there would be a gap in the basswood spacers to allow for a fake gun carriage to receive the half-cannons that will be visible from the outside.  On my ship, it was a single plank construction (versus the double plank construction of later versions) - so I installed strips of wood as 'false decks' for the gun decks within the ship.  It really improved the look of the model.  On your model, you have glued the bulkheads, but you can still install wood spacers as described above.

   After smoothing, you will have the faired surface the under-planking is meant to achieve, so you could then apply just a single layer of planking on the hull.  I have thought of 'simplification' alternatives, and have come up with some ideas I may do myself.  Paint scheme:  perhaps the red color should predominate exterior planking, with the detailed carvings painted gold to imitated gilding - then touches of polychrome can be added here and there as appropriate.  I considered a stub-mast 'admiralty' model with only the lower deadeyes installed on the channels.  I'd wrap a wire around the lower deadeye and form a loop to hold the first link of miniature chain that would go through the channel board and be fastened with a mini brass nail or pin into the hull below - many early ships used chain (as opposed to solid bars).

 

  I plan to glue the gunport lids in the 'up' position so I don't have to make all those little hinges and upper ropes - just a closing rope through a tiny hole at the top center of the gunport lid will go into the gunport on one side where it can be glued somewhere.  Yet I'll have a few gunport lids glued CLOSED so I can make just a few hinges that will be seen, and also an opening rope that will disappear into the hull above.  this will 'fool' most onlookers into thinking that all the port lids are so equipped.  Instead of stub masts, one can install the first section of vertical mast and make the circular 'top' that goes on - as well as the fitting where the next section of mast is meant to go.  Fore-stays will need to be installed.  Then one can install the shrouds - the upper and lower deadeyes can be pre-rigged with a simple fixture to assure an equal distance between them (this is before installing the lower deadeye chain as noted above).

 

 Pairs of shrouds can be threaded up through the tops, and around the mast to be tied with a square knot - or brought around and each tied to itself with a taught-line hitch to allow for tension adjustment.  Once both sides have been adjusted for each mast section, a drop a glue will secure the knot on the hitch.  The shrouds on each side are tied together near the mast to get the proper angle of the shrouds (which will increase tension slightly - but that will be offset by an equal tension on the other side when those shrouds are ties together).  You could stop there and have a good looking model without having to tie ratlines.  They can always be added later by stiffening some thin line with thinned glue so it dries straight, then add pieces of this as horizontal ratlines (guided by a paper template backer) merely glued with a drop of glue at each shroud, and trimmed on the ends when dry.  Once can also tie the ratlines to the shrouds.

 

  See where I'm going, this can be done one step at a time over a long period - stopping whenever you choose, but at each increment you still have a presentable model.  Now imagine adding the diagonal spar on the mizzen, the spar on the main and foremasts that can also be angled so the model will be less wide, then the lower spar on the jib, that does not have to be angled.  The rigging needed will be halyards (to raise or lower the spar), and perhaps 'lifts' to control the position relative to the vertical mast.  Adding sheet and clew lines would be a plus, but the lines on from the end of the spars to control 'yaw' are needed.  The loose ends of these lines go down to belaying pins.  Foot ropes on the yards should not be too hard to place.

 

  I will OMIT sails, which are very hard to make look good and in scale - and also require a LOT of running rigging.  A fully rigged ship with sails seems to be a mass of rope running in every direction ... if done right, it is good - as every line had a purpose.  Yet a simplified model without sails does not need  most of the running rigging.  

 

  A future step will then be to fabricate the NEXT level of masts and tops first, then they can all be added, along with the shrouds (and perhaps ratlines) for them.  Add the yards in the same way as done before, and all will be well (this includes the small vertical mast at the end of the jib). Then with one more level added (and this can be done at leisure if the parts are first pre-fabricated), you will achieve the full height of the model, but remember that the yards are still angled (at least somewhat) so the model is not so wide.  The idea here is to take it one step at a time, to the level of detail you are comfortable with.

 

  I hope this concept helps you.  Just remember, at all times - somewhere in the world - the 'sun is over the yard arm'  (time for the first round of grog for the day).  Fair sailing ...  Johnny

[ubjs]

Good to hear that I´m not alone in my hullbuilding.

As someone said, ¨when you buy a kit, you buy a dream¨.

[Wintergreen]

Hello ubjs, 

I read your question a bit up about gluing two stringers 4x8mm. These are for reinforcing the structure. About the bend downwards, as long as the bulkheads and keel are well supported it is no problem to force the stringers down. Glue them at the same time and add some weight to keep them in place.

And how do I know this? Well, I did build Billings Wasa back in 1985. It took me 4 or 5 years. 

A thought on doing it more simple? Just add the lower masts, as it is on show in the WASA Museum. That way you will still have some striking rigging, but not too much of it.

And as others have stated - it's all up to you! There are no wrongs or donts here. Do as you please 🙂 

[ubjs]

_One idea, just plank one side of the ship.

[reklein]

Maybe get a big chunk of basswood ,or Limewood if you will and carve a half model and mount it to a board. then add the gunports and other detail.

You still need a set of plans for the hull,but that would simplify your model. you could also build the hull with lifts of individual boards if no large stock is available.

[rraisley]

On 4/1/2021 at 7:12 AM, ubjs said:

But I want to build the model in a simpler way, I just want something that looks ok for someone who is not a specialist in ship models. I am looking for tips on how I can simplify construction.

I can definitely appreciate what you're trying to do. The last ship model I completed was the Popular Mechanics Chebec, when I was 16. It took me a year (a lot of time when your friends are out dating), and 60 years and 10 moves later has gone the way of the trash. Even then, it was simplified, due to my limited tools and budget (never could afford all the cannon).

 

I got my Victory cross-section model over 30 years ago, and it's not done. I bought the Corel (?) Berlin in between, and was smart enough to realize I would never finish it. I've seen finished, imported models on eBay (an example is a Victory cross-section), that finished, costs less than I paid for my Victory kit (not counting hundreds of dollars of add-ons and tools). I hope my Victory, assuming I finish it, will surpass the imported finished model, and I have seen some imported models, and the craftsmanship is not very good. But sitting on a shelf in the store, or a mantel at home, it is just as impressive.

 

The more I see of the level of craftsmanship displayed here, the more I realize my result will be closer to the imported model than to what others do here. But I am enjoying it. And I'm spending time, even for this model, that NO ONE will ever appreciate that sees the finished product.

 

No matter the model, if you enjoy building it and are happy with the result, just do it. Your way. The way you want to, simplified, partly built or whatever. I know my model would never be admired by sophisticated modelers; but unless I post it here, they'll never get to see it. My friends think it looks good (not knowing it from a plastic, pre-painted kit), and it will look good to me. At least from a distance. And if it doesn't, I just back up a little further. 😉 

[mtaylor]

5 minutes ago, rraisley said:

The more I see of the level of craftsmanship displayed here, the more I realize my result will be closer to the imported model than to what others do here. But I am enjoying it. And I'm spending time, even for this model, that NO ONE will ever appreciate that sees the finished product.

 

No matter the model, if you enjoy building it and are happy with the result, just do it. Your way. The way you want to, simplified, partly built or whatever. I know my model would never be admired by sophisticated modelers; but unless I post it here, they'll never get to see it. My friends think it looks good (not knowing it from a plastic, pre-painted kit), and it will look good to me. At least from a distance. And if it doesn't, I just back up a little further. 😉 

An excellent philosophy to have.   

[Bob Cleek]

Go ahead and work to your own standards. If you enjoy the process and the result pleases you, it will have all served its purpose. There's no "perfect" model. I have models I built decades ago that gave me great pride of accomplishment at the time and which people still admire and complement. However, when I look at them now, I see all my mistakes (including one schooner with all the deadeyes careless upside down!) and I have to resist the urge to pull them apart and correct my less-sophisticated work. Every model tends to be a bit better than its predecessor. That's how skill grows over a long period of time and much work.

 

That said, your desire to have a Vasa "that looks ok for someone who is not a specialist in ship models" is a bit like someone whose piano playing level is somewhere around playing Chopsticks saying that they want to play Chopin "that sounds okay for someone who isn't a concert pianist." That player would certainly be able to learn to play Chopin that sounds okay for somebody who isn't a concert pianist, but the real question is whether, with such a "just good enough" attitude, they'd ever be able to make the commitment to get to the point where whatever they're playing is even recognizable as Chopin. There's a lot of wise advice in this thread. It's difficult to encourage someone to pursue a course when the goal they desire will take far more time and effort than they've made clear they wish to commit to it. This isn't to say "Don't attempt it."  You may well find it very enjoyable and surprise yourself with abilities you never knew you had. Building any ship model is just an exercise in completing a lot of tiny steps in sequence. As the saying goes, "Experience begins when you start."

Edited April 25, 2021 by Bob Cleek