Question about the planking

[Luigi Luigi]

Hi,

 

My name is Luigi, and I’m a 17 years old modelling fan. I’ve been highly interested by Chuck Passaro’s planking technique that seems really great, and I spent much time trying to grasp it with the tutorials and PDFs, but I can’t really understand it in depth. Actually, I can’t understand the various steps and how to execute them according to the ship model. I’m not so worried about the lay of the planking, but I’m concerned about the previous steps, such as the marks, the planking fan, the tape…

I would be really grateful if Chuck Passaro or any other modelists were kind enough to explain the detailed technique to me in a simpler way.

 

Many thanks for your help,

Luigi

[Bob Cleek]

I'd suggest you check out the subject on YouTube where you will find a lot of instructional videos addressing full-sized boat building. If you can understand that, modeling construction becomes quite simple. Look for videos that address "carvel planking" and "lining off." 

 

"The marks, the planking fan, the tape" are all about how you must develop the shape of the cut piece of planking stock that will fill the space on the frames that you want that particular plank to cover when bent around the shape of the hull. Chuck's planking method cleverly uses heat to radically "edge set" (bend the plank stock across it's wide dimension) the plank. That can't be done in full-size boat building because the full-size plank stock cannot be bent that way. Fortunately for modelers, the thin stock we use can be bent with heat. The curve of the edge of the plank still much be cut to match the curves of planks above and below it before it is bent overall to lay fair where that plank is supposed to be.

 

If you have specific questions, please ask them in detail. I'm sure a lot of forumites can answer them and walk you through a plank or three until you get the hang of it.

 

 

[mtaylor]

Chuck has videos here:       

 

[Luigi Luigi]

5 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Hi,

 

First of all, many thanks for your fast and clear answers. As I said on my previous message, I think I understood quite well Chuck’s technique for the folding and the planking lay, thanks to the videos and tutorials.

 

However, what I can’t understand are the following steps (based on this tutorial: https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/LiningOffYourHullPlankingTutorialAndFan.pdf)

 

- How do you know which ticks have to be put on the strip and on the frame (step 1 on the pdf)? How does Chuck know he needs 29 planks ont that specific case?

 

- Where do you have to place the strip according to the ticks? (step 2 on the pdf)

 

- Finally, how to use the planking fan? To what do the 7 marks on Chuck’s tape refer to? How to place the tape on the planking fan? (steps 3 and 4 on the pdf).

 

Thanks again for your answers! I really really want to understand this technique, it seems so great!!

 

Have a nice day,

 

Luigi

 

 

[Thukydides]

55 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

- How do you know which ticks have to be put on the strip and on the frame (step 1 on the pdf)?

You divide the hull into sections using tape or strung. Then you make a tick strip the width of the gap between the string on each bulkhead and place it on the planking fan such that it equally divides your strip into the appropriate amount of planks. It is just an easy way of getting getting equal widths for the planks you need to fit in that gap.

 

55 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

How does Chuck know he needs 29 planks ont that specific case?

He decided on his plank width at scale and then divided the bulkhead size at midships by that width to get how many planks he would need.

 

55 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

- Where do you have to place the strip according to the ticks? (step 2 on the pdf)

This is something you just need to eyeball. At midships you line it up with the appropriate tick mark, but then you adjust the lines to make them look like they should. As the article suggests look at the run of planks on pictures of models to get the idea.

 

55 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

- Finally, how to use the planking fan? To what do the 7 marks on Chuck’s tape refer to? How to place the tape on the planking fan? (steps 3 and 4 on the pdf).

See my first answer. If you are still confused you can check out my build log, I detail some of the process there.

 

Maybe the best thing is to just re-articulate the steps for you.

 

1) Measure the bulkhead at midships to determine how much space you need to cover.

 

2) Determine the width of your planks. If you are using a kit this will be done for you already as you will use whatever you were provided with. For example on my alert build the limewood strips for the first planking were 4.9 mm wide.

 

3) Divide your midship bulkhead size by the width of your planks to determine the number of planks and divide it into equal sections (as many as you want to line off)

 

4) using tape or a string with a bit of glue on it determine the sections of your hull. Once you are happy mark on each bulkhead where the string crosses it. You can then mark this width for each bulkhead on a strip of paper.

 

5) use the planking fan to split each section on each bulkhead into the appropriate number of planks. Let's say for example you determined you need 20 planks at midships and you divide it into two sections using one string. Then each section on each bulkhead will need 10 planks. Move your strip of paper along the planking fan until the marks you made to denote the section widths line up with 10 planks. Then mark the planking fan lines in your strip and transfer them to the bulkhead. Repeat this for each bulkhead section on each bulkhead.

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Thukydides

[allanyed]

Luigi,

Where are you located?  With experienced builders all over the world, MAYBE there is a member near you that can help.  Even if there is not someone that you can meet with in person, a Zoom or Skype tutorial may be possible.    

Ciao

Allan

[druxey]

Some of use learn in different ways from others. Have you checked out the other planking tutorials on this site? Perhaps reading them might make things clearer for you as well.

[glbarlow]

Thukydides has done a nice job of explaining this method. I’m an absolute believer in it being worth the time to learn above all others.  It is a trial to learn but well worth the time. Once you sort it out you’ll always be able to do it and share with others how you did. In time you’ll become the teacher. 
 

The simplistic way to think about line a hull is this: The widest point of the hull determines the number of planks needed to run the length of the ship from stem to stern. First determine that with a tick strip measuring that length top to bottom, divided by the width of your planks. That number of full width planks won’t fit at the stem, and often won’t at the stern so the planks must be tapered. The requirement is when you’re done you’ll have the same number of planks at the stem as you have at midships, they’ll just be skinnier. This method tells you how skinny. 

 

Take a tick strip and measure the length of each bulkhead, place each one in turn on the planking fan aligned to the left edge and move it to where the right edges matches the line equal to the number of planks required at midships. Now you know how wide each plank has to be at each bulkhead, transfer those marks to the bulkhead as a guide and also use them to know where to taper your plank. 
 

The strip of tape marking each belt is hard because it’s not math, it’s art.  It’s breaking up what I described above by dividing the hull into sections or belts to help keep you on track with your measurements by making smaller sections. For a small model you may not need it at all, for a medium size one belt will do, for a larger model maybe two or three. The art is to find the flow of the hull so the planking has a nice sweep, only by doing it and gaining experience will you learn how to get that line, or better yet looking at other build logs to see what they did. 
 

Check out my Cheerful build log to see some photos and text on how I did it.  But know this, I removed and redid my planking multiple times until I got a result I liked. This technique works great, but it takes time to learn and it takes time to do.  My advice is to stick with it. There are many ways to plank a ship, the only bad way is trying to merge and meld all those or skip from one to another based on other’s preferences. It can get confusing fast trying to abide by too much advice, well intentioned it might be (like the post below who seems not to have read anything above it). Stick with this one method. 

 

Good luck, hang in there. There will be that moment when it all becomes clear. 
 

Edited September 1, 2021 by glbarlow

[Luigi Luigi]

 

Thank you very much to all of you for these clear and quick explanations !

Honestly, I didn't imagine that such a site gathering so many passionnate modelists could exist... I am sooo happy, and thanks to all of you, so much less confused !!

 

[Thukydides]

15 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

 

Thank you very much to all of you for these clear and quick explanations !

Honestly, I didn't imagine that such a site gathering so many passionnate modelists could exist... I am sooo happy, and thanks to all of you, so much less confused !!

 

When you start your ship, start a build log, that way you can get feedback as you go along.

[Laggard]

I can’t wait to do my next model so I can do the planking correctly.  

[hornet]

YouTube  videos from Modellers Central will give you a basic guide to planking a hull. 

[MangoFox]

Hi all,

 

I've got a few planks on, using chucks edge bending technique, but seem to be running into a problem where on the second bulkhead from the stern my plank ends up barely making contact. I tried packing out the bulkhead cause I had assumed I undercut the (first two) bulkhead(s) during fairing. Think I might be missing something though. First two planks went on each side went on not so bad. Could be better though.

 

The faring might be a tiny bit off but I think something else is causing the issue. After packing out and putting a plank on I'm finding  would need to pack it out again for the next plank, then again for the one after that and so fourth, obviously thats going to mess up my shape.

 

Any ideas where I messed up and what i need to do to fix? Not having this problem for any of the other bulkheads, planks lay nice and flat on those.

 

See some photos below for context. Ignore the fact I haven't sanded them down near the keel.

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers for the help. Mango.

 

[Paul Le Wol]

Hey Mango, maybe you could upload a couple more photos for people to get a look from different angles. Could it be that there is too much bend in that plank? Just throwing it out there. Perhaps try different amounts of bend to see how it affects the way the plank sits against the bulkhead

[rudybob]

11 hours ago, MangoFox said:

Hi all,

 

I've got a few planks on, using chucks edge bending technique, but seem to be running into a problem where on the second bulkhead from the stern my plank ends up barely making contact. I tried packing out the bulkhead cause I had assumed I undercut the (first two) bulkhead(s) during fairing. Think I might be missing something though. First two planks went on each side went on not so bad. Could be better though.

 

The faring might be a tiny bit off but I think something else is causing the issue. After packing out and putting a plank on I'm finding  would need to pack it out again for the next plank, then again for the one after that and so fourth, obviously thats going to mess up my shape.

 

Any ideas where I messed up and what i need to do to fix? Not having this problem for any of the other bulkheads, planks lay nice and flat on those.

 

See some photos below for context. Ignore the fact I haven't sanded them down near the keel.

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers for the help. Mango.

 

I see your concern and it is quite a valid one. I have not been able to solve my issue which is the same as yours. I am on my first planking attempt and frankly it is very hard to do. You have the plank bent and twisted which is an art in itself or are the planks semi -shaped already? I found your build log

[glbarlow]

Not sure what model you’re building and not much to see to understand where you’re going wrong. The plank seems unusually large and your fairing seems way off.  Also not sure if you’re laying the bent plank the right way (plank should be bent upward to lay flat and bend down). But again it’s hard to tell from what you’ve provided. I’d suggest you view Chuck’s planking videos a couple of times.

[druxey]

Did you line out the run of planking before you started? That could also be a factor in the planks not lying nicely on the frames or bulkheads.

[MangoFox]

Hi all,

 

So I thought i was posting this in the planking questions thread I started a while ago, guess we will just roll with it being here now though.

 

Clearly I needed to add more photos, let me know if you need to see from a certain angle for better context.

 

So it was the second bulkhead from the bow (not the stern) as you can see I've glued on some strips to pack out the bulkhead a bit, originally I thought I under cut the first two bulkheads (i was super careful so if i undercut them a little it wasnt enough to cause the problem im having). I know i need to sand the packers i added nice and smooth, make sure they run fare and also taper flush to the original bulkhead. but I honestly don't think that's where my problem was coming from as i was having this problem from the second plank.

 

I didn't bother ticking off the bulkheads, I ended up using the MSY guy's measurements as they were all within a millimeter or 2 of mine (except for the very last bulkhead at the stern where for some reason he measured 44mm).

 

 

 

 

You can see below the planks lay fare on all the other bulkheads (ignore the blood on the stern, i got myself with the scalpel while i was gluing)

 

 

This photo below makes my work look pretty terrible, a bit of sanding will get those bulkheads looking correct again, i just havent done it yet. Looking for a bit of guidance on the issue im trying to resolve first.  Just notice the clinker effect i was getting.

 

 

And below is the plank im trying to lay. Arrows point to the tapered edge.

 

 

Below is the problem area, second bulkhead from the bow. I keep getting this gap. Its big enough that the next plank will want to fall into it. This is the reason i packed out the bulkhead in the first place. I've been under the impression this was what Chucks bending was supposed to eliminate, so I think this is a problem with how I am edge bending.

 

Hopefully these pics make it a bit easier to understand the problem im having. If you need more info or different angles of the model let me know.

 

If all else fails I might clean up the bulkheads a bit and post in a fresh thread to get some advice cause i know those ugly packers I glued on are going to draw your attention away. Just be aware they were put there after I noticed the planks were barely making contact with the bulkhead.

 

Regards,

Mang.

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, MangoFox said:

they were all within a millimeter or 2

I have no idea what scale you are working in, but if at 1:64 for example, this is the equivalent of 5 inches so a relatively large discrepancy.    Maybe spend a few hours studying and trying spiling as shown in the tutorial by David Antscherl in the Articles section here at MSW.

Allan 

Edited October 3, 2022 by allanyed

[rudybob]

Keep doing what your doing. That you notice and understand the problem is good. Solving it will be better though. Good Luck I hope you get the answer needed

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  'Couple of observations ...  It is highly recommended to 'fill' the space between the keel and first bulkhead PLUS the the space between the first and second bulkhead (even the 2nd & 3rd at the stern, and in some cases, at the bow) with filler wood - such as basswood (cut to suit 'with the grain', as you don't want to shave end grain).  THEN do the fairing.   One can see in the pictures that the planking tends to 'straighten out' somewhat between these bulkheads.  Many builds show the 'filling' technique ... and some do not - and you can see the difference in results.

 

  Filling prevents 'over fairing' on one side of the bulkhead - in your case the 2nd one.  Now, you have two planks in place - but its not too late to undo them and utilize filler blocks.  BTW - you can let them the blocks 'stick out' some when gluing in place, because you will fair everything once the glue dries.  It looks like you are building a double-planked kit, and many with awful-looking first planking resort to slathering on lots of filler and re-fairing (sanding like hell) prior to second planking.  But the better the first planking, the less likely that the planks will be sanded too much (even right through!) in the process.  Better now to take a step backwards and remedy things.

 

  Another observed that the planks (in the affected area) are 'too wide'.  Of course they need to be wider amidships, but tapering the ends will help you.  Again, there are builds and a couple of tutorials that show helpful techniques - you just have to find them.  In the 'old days' many ship model kits had hulls carved from a solid blocks and were finished-faired by the builder ... no planking involved.  BUT ... there is no reason one can't build one of those kits and add thin planking to a properly faired hull for a better look on the model.  Even ships that were painted (like clippers) can benefit, since some of the grain and joints will 'show through' the paint job.

[glbarlow]

For starters you have to taper those planks at the bow. I described that a little at the beginning of this thread, it won’t fit as you have them. If this is the Lady Nelson you might check my build log linked in my signature for a different look.

[Bob Cleek]

9 hours ago, MangoFox said:

I didn't bother ticking off the bulkheads, I ended up using the MSY guy's measurements as they were all within a millimeter or 2 of mine (except for the very last bulkhead at the stern where for some reason he measured 44mm).

 

Using another's planking measurements is rarely a good idea. It only works if their hull is exactly the same shape as yours, which is rarely ever the case.

 

If you'd "bothered ticking off the bulkheads," you'd have generated the shape of each plank. This is a critical step in hanging plank. Each plank has to be fitted individually to it's mates. "Within a millimeter or two" is a large distance when things are supposed to fit flush and errors compound as the number of your planks increase.

[iMustBeCrazy]

G'day Mango,

 

11 hours ago, MangoFox said:

so I think this is a problem with how I am edge bending.

Probably.

 

First I suggest you watch videos 24, 25, 78 and 85 at https://sampsonboat.co.uk/

 

They will give you some idea about fairing, setting out and planking. They are not tutorials but you do get explanations.

 

 

Edge bending is about shrinking one edge of your piece of timber (you can't stretch it). In the picture the green line is a shorter distance than the distance along the adjoining strake so you need to shrink the the edge indicated (blue arrow), that is it needs to be on the inside of your bend.

[glbarlow]

Here’s my best advice. Don’t get caught up in trying to follow multiple different methods and techniques for planking. At least three have been listed in this string. Pick one and go with it and ignore the others. 

[rudybob]

This thread is dear to me. I need to read things several times and seeing all the same suggestions that were given to me is heartening. 

 

I refer most specifically to over fairing which I read here and in reply to a question of mine. Insure your bulkheads are held fast as you fair

I tried shimming but it seemed to only be good for a plank then more shimming would be necessary. I'm thinking at this point I would be better advised to plank over the bad area and sand. Hard for the experienced, near impossible for the beginner. I am not going to fair my replacement pinnace until I have seen a plank laying on a bulkhead to get a better idea of where and how much

Tapering the planks. I have tried that and it has merits though it isn't always stated in guide sheets. BUT where and how much. That answer would lie in the tic marks made on the bulkheads which is somewhere else to make mistakes. Planking fans are easy to understand but more difficult to implement. All that paper or cardboard to be cut and lined up proper...LOL. 

 

I botched the pinnace beyond salvation so I bought another and learned from my mistakes, my experiences and the offerings of the members.  

 

The suggestions offered in this thread are correct. Read each one and read it again

Edited October 4, 2022 by rudybob

[MangoFox]

Hi all,

 

Just to clarify some points.

 

This is a double planked 1:64 model of the HM Lady Nelson. This is my first ship, new to every aspects of both ships, models and woodwork.

 

• When I said "I didn't bother ticking off the bulkheads".
  • I noticed problems with ticking off straight away and don't have the experience to know how to overcome them. I made several tick strips for all the bulkheads. Below are photos for the first and second bulkhead from the bow. Even though I haven't transferred the ticks over, I'm still pretty close to what I expected at the second bulkhead.
    When compared to the tick strip, the planks on the first bulkhead appear as though they could and should be a bit thinner. However the tick strip for the first bulkhead has the same number of planks as the mid-ship bulkheads, which will include the garboard strake. From the resources I have read, bringing the garboard strake all the way up to this point (the first bulkhead) will cause other problems (i.e un-natural curvature in the strakes or, the "smiley face" effect).
    This is why I chose not to transfer the marks. The plan was to lay the first 4 planks from the gun-port patterns on each side, then the garboard and broad strake (with no tapering  on the garboard + broad strake as per the advice on many instructions / video guides).  I was then going re-measure the gap/band left over and taper as required. 
  • I wanted to break the hull into 3 bands and create smaller more manageable strips before laying any planks. However being  my first model I had too much trouble visualizing (or guessing) which point the band should start at the bow, cross mid-ship and terminate at the stern.

                   

 

 

• When I said "I used the MSW guys measurements as they were all within 1mm of my own".
  • This wasn't per plank. If the guy in the video guide (Which is for the same model) measured from false deck to false keel and got 65mm, my measurement came out at 66mm. That's 1mm over 13 planks, roughly .076mm difference per plank. The only exception being the stern most bulkhead. That's mainly the measurement that I ripped off from him. For some reason the MSW guy got a wildly different measurement at the stern. I chose to follow the guide as his model turns out pretty good. I have been reading and watching a tonne of guides and after stalling on planking for quite some time it was time to dive into the process. I decided to trust he had a reason to get that measurement, his model turns out good after all.
  • See the photo below, at the final bulkhead the MSW video guide got 41mm, as if he forgot to measure the actual bulkhead. If you include the final bulkhead under the transom in you measurement its 76-77mm. I'm currently not experiencing problems at the stern. My issue remains at the second bulkhead from the bow.

 

• In regards to my faring being off.
  • Yes, it probably pretty far from perfect. This was likely emphasized due to the fact I took a photo after adding the packers and not sanding them (it was close to bed time). I did clean up the packers I added to the first 2 bulkheads since then, see below. As you might notice I felt the need to pack out the first bulkhead twice, then the second bulkhead once. After noticing that this didn't help with my problem I came here for advice. Just a note though, my planks all sit fare on all the other bulkheads. Just BH-2 causing me problems at the moment.

 

 

• "First I suggest you watch videos 24, 25, 78 and 85 at https://sampsonboat.co.uk/" + the additional advice. From user "IMustBeCrazy"
  • Thank you for the resources, I haven't seen these ones yet so I will have a good look.
     
• "Don’t get caught up in trying to follow multiple different methods and techniques for planking". From user GLBarlow
  • Couldn't agree more. I've seen other users offer this advice before as well. I've read and watched so many different videos at this point I've ended up struggling to differentiate all the techniques. Some guides just confused me more. This was one of the reasons I decided to dive in and get some planks on the model, then deal with the issues when they arise. I've been trying to primarily follow Chucks guides. I have found a lot of guides, including Chucks, have a tendency to be very vague, require tools/equipment I do not have or just not be relevant to my model for certain reasons.  leaving me with more questions then answers. When you're really good at something, its hard to remember what its like to be a beginner and know nothing.
     
• In regards to the filler block + additional advice. From user Snug Harbour Johnny
  • I have seen some modelers using filler blocks. I don't have many woodworking/modelling tools, just some basic modeling tools I got with a kit. I certainly don't have access to anything precise enough to cut to appropriate size and shape. My planks do have a tendency to straighten out between the first and second bulkheads. My plan is still to use wood filler to do a lot of the heavy lifting on this first planking. I'd like to minimize just how much I will need by overcoming the current issue in the 'most correct' way possible.
     
• In regards to the posts from User RudyBob
  • Mate we are 2 peas in a pod. It's somehow quite heartening to see someone experiencing the same issues I am. We will get there.

 

Just wanted to thank everyone for their advice thus far.

Still not sure what I can do besides making the plank just a touch thinner at the bow. (though that will reduce my plank to less then half its original width, something I've seen multiple guides say to avoid).

 

Cheers,

Mango.

Edited October 9, 2022 by MangoFox
Said stern when I meant bow.

[starlight]

Hello @MangoFox,

 

It seems like you've got a good grasp on what needs to be done. It's always difficult to explain hull planking without actually being there in person. At least for me there was only so much I could do by reading this forum, I had to learn by experience in the end. I don't think anybody ever gets the planking on their first build perfect. Here are some tips I might offer:

• The LN kit should come with brass pins for the first planking, no? For the severe curvature at the bow and stern these might help to hold the plank up tight against the bulkhead. Just make sure you pin them through some sacrificial material or you'll never be able to remove them (see pic below). For the second planking you can use CA glue here and there for the same purpose.
  
  
   
• Are you beveling the edges of the planks? This should be done especially in areas of tighter curvature to reduce gaps (see pic below). You will also get a small difference if you measure up your tick strips against the inner or outer surface, if that makes sense.
  
  

If your planks are edge bent and twisted properly you should be able to avoid the clinker effect. But do treat the 1st planking as a learning experience as you can afford to make mistakes here.

 

Hope that helps,

 

starlight

 

[Gregory]

The clinker effect is because the planks are not laying flat on the bulkheads.  The only way to achieve this is by edge bending or spiling.

Hve you looked at Chuck's planink videos.

 

 

They will show you all you need to know about edge bending.

This guide by  David Antscherl will show you about spilling.

https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/APrimerOnPlanking.pdf

 

I meant to add that spiling can be problematic with kits, because it requires wider stock than the uniform width planks provided in the kit.

 

Since this is the first layer, it is a good opportunity to practice what you want to do with the second layer. 

Now is the time to make mistakes, and correct them with lessons learned.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Gregory

[noel_colledge]

Hey buddy,

 

Just something additional on the filler blocks reply on post #27, you don't need fancy tools to do this, although not ideal you can use Bass wood or Balsa which is readily available and easy to cut with a knife or small saw.

 

Glue multiple pieces  in square and then fair around the bow with files and sandpaper. This will give you a finished shape and something to guide the planks. As mentioned already you will still need to size and bend correctly but you can at least draw the lines on the filler blocks between bulk heads so you know where you are supposed to be