Replace kit supplied blocks?

[Dave_E]

Hi All,

 

I started going through the box for the Rattlesnake and since I'm just finishing up the Lady Nelson (Amati), I noticed all the blocks sure look like the ones on the Lady Nelson. I'm assuming one kit manufacturer may use another's parts? That being said, there is a member here who owns his own company and makes all the blocks required for the Rattlesnake. Boy are they pretty... and look real. Can anyone think of a reason not to replace all the blocks? 😀 I'm also replacing cannons and carriages and all the rope for sure. I know at one time I think I said I was pleased with the rope... but after really looking at it, the natural rope has hairs and the black rope does not have the quality of build that I know is out there (I have purchased some of it).

[toms10]

From what I have seen on MSW, many kit parts are often replaced due to poor quality or out of scale issues. That is most of the reason I took the leap to scratch building after my first kit. I can’t see paying a hefty price for a kit and replacing most of it, especially if you plan on purchasing the replacements. Now the price of the kit is even higher!  May as well take the money invested in kits and buy some tools to make some components.

 

Just my 2 cents.   In the end I would replace the blocks, etc since you will spend a good deal of time building this project. May as well make it the best that you can. 😁

 

Tom

[glbarlow]

Rattlesnake is, like LN, a pretty old kit design. You might encounter more issues than just blocks and ropes, but you should definitely replace both. 

[Gregory]

29 minutes ago, Dave_E said:

Can anyone think of a reason not to replace all the blocks?

Cost might be one reason.

A lot/some of kit supplied blocks can be made 100% better by rounding off the sharp edges.  Some of them are hopeless when the sheave hole/s is not positioned  in a a way for them to look remotely realistic.

Have you seen any of the " block buster " tools.  They can do quick work of rounding of the edges.

 

I can show you some examples later.

 

I think it is great for you to see this as a way to improve your build.  I have seen some great workmanship really overshadowed by the poor quality blocks provided with a kit.

 

Before you buy a set for a particular kit, don't rule out putting together your own set by purchasing from Syren.

 

I have bought some of the blocks from Crafty Sailor with a slight cost advantage but the Syren blocks are better quality.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Gregory

[ccoyle]

32 minutes ago, Dave_E said:

Can anyone think of a reason not to replace all the blocks? 😀

 

Totally depends on if you can live with yourself afterwards

[Oldsalt1950]

Dave, as you know i am currently building ME's Rattlesnake and it has been on hold. I am placing and order with Syren for all the blocks the hearts and cleats. I am also replacing all the planking then the rope. I looked over everything and can't really say i liked what I saw that was provided in the kit. The only cast metal part I will be using is the anchor proper. It will almost double the cost of the kit but it will also make it more to scale and aesthetically pleasing to the eye, not to mention the wood is easier to shape and work with.

 

Jim

[chris watton]

Sourcing better blocks and deadeyes is a headache for me. I hate to use the 'industry standard' type, but have very little choice, due to costs.

 

I have been given prices for CNC walnut blocks and deadeyes for Indefatigable. However, even for just 30 kits worth, that is 34,000 blocks and deadeyes, and well over £4k.

 

If you are wanting the special machined blocks for one project, that's no problem, but when you have to budget for 30-100 kits worth, it's a whole different matter, as the costs get very high, even with small discounts. I would imagine MS and other larger players produce a lot more than 100 of each of their kits at a time, too.

[glbarlow]

You’d really be better off building one Chris’ kits next not only for the better design and material but the light years better instructions and plans that come with them. I had both versions of Rattlesnake, after holding them for years I ended up throwing them away without even starting them. 

[allanyed]

Dave,  I am with the replace everything you can if it is not right crowd.  Be picky though, some things may be fixable or good as they are.  

I assume you are referring to Chuck Passaro's Syren Ship Model Company.  Regarding rope, as you are no doubt aware, for standing rigging 18th century ships were most often coated with Stockholm or similar pine tar thus dark brown, not "road" tar black like seen in some kits.   Chuck provides it in this color as well as typical tans for running rigging.   There is a long thread here at MSW from 2017 on the subject of standing rigging color and coatings.  https://modelshipworld.com/topic/15655-stockholm-tar/

As to blocks, many members replace kit blocks with more realistic looking ones for obvious reasons, but as normal it is your choice.  As explained above cost is always a concern for the kit maker as well as the end customer, as it should be, so the decision to spend extra money comes down to the individual's desires and budget.   Below is the color of Syren's great looking rope.

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by allanyed

[mtaylor]

Since cost seems to be an issue with many of us, especially on our first models, I suggest the following:  

 

Do a search here for "block tumbler".  There have been more than a few posts as I recall on making one's own tumbler.  It can round the edges of the blocks for a more real look.   

 

As for rope... have look at topics on Syren Rope Walk.   It's reasonably priced and works very well from what I've read.  There's other rope walks but cost a lot more an I would say hold off on them until you done some rope on Syren rope walk.

[Dave_E]

Good discussion everyone, thanks for jumping in. I’m going out on a limb here, but I bet most of your average first time builders (if the bug bites them and they want to step up their game), do what I did. Cost IS a factor to some folks. I just could not justify a $500 kit to the Admiral. However I bought a $200 kit, add two - three hundred dollars over the course of a year or more for bashing upgrades… and I think I’ll come out OK (if not, I’m sure you’ll know about it along the way). The first build is also where the noob is tooling up, which also costs.

 

I’m thankful there are manufacturers who have the goods and the talents to offer upgrades that really do make a difference! 👍😀

[Gregory]

Here's my .02 on a block tumbler/buster.

 

 

I made this little guy out of a little parts keeper with a screw on lid. Lined with 400 grit sandpaper.  The disc moves freely up and down

to make the parts bounce around and up and down.

 

Here are the blocks that came with my Model Shipways 18th Century Longboat.  3 and 4 mm..  Note the red circle. Block is not useable.

 

 

Blocks inside my tumbler.

Cap on.  I hold the container and run the mini Dremel at about 1-2K for a couple of minutes.

 

 

Here is the result on the left.  Some improvement, but nothing to compare with the good aftermarket blocks.

 

Here is one of the 4mm stropped up.  Back away ten feet and they are not bad at all..

Another problem with the kit blocks are the defects. Even if the sheave hole is in the right place, the groove needs to be deeper and at least as wide

as the hole to look right.  A lot of kits don't have enough to begin with, and the defective ones will have to be replaced.

 

Before I go here is another use I found for my little tumbler.

I cut out these wood beads with my laser.

Here they are after tumbling.  ( Ignore the one that didn't round up like it should have.  It got trapped in the tumbler somewhere )

I was experimenting with making some parral beads.

 

 

[Dr PR]

Dave,

 

I am kit bashing a 1980s topsail schooner. The kit plans did not include a lot of the rigging on an actual ship - it was a simplified rigging plan. After I started doing research on these ships I realized I would not have enough blocks for the additional rigging. In addition, the kit supplied thread was pretty fuzzy and there were only two or three sizes. Neither the "ropes" nor blocks were to scale.

 

When I started looking at the way rope sizes were calculated I learned that block sizes are determined by rope sizes. All this led me to decide to replace all the ropes and blocks. This wasn't so much to make a "correct" model because what I am building if a fictitious ship anyway. But I wanted the experience of creating a true to scale rigging on the model.

 

I bought rope and blocks from Syren and the cost came out to about $270. That's quite a bit more than I paid for the kit! But Chuck's products are very nice.

 

Keep this cost in mind. The topsail schooner has square sails on the fore mast only, and there are only two masts. The Rattlesnake has a LOT more rigging. I haven't tried to figure that out yet for the Rattlesnake kit I have, but I'll bet there are 5 to 10 times as many blocks as the simple schooner rig, and a lot more rope.

 

You can use much of the material in the kit even if it isn't the best quality. But some pieces are just stock items the company had on the shelf and are either out of scale or just inappropriate for the vessel and period you are modeling. So for these parts you might want to make substitutions. But in the end it all boils down to asking yourself what you want to build.

[Dave_E]

Thanks Phil,

 

I'm into that back up 3' and the ship looks like WOW! I'm doing that with the Lady. 😁 The lack of quality of the cannons and the rope really got to me the most. I did order scale rope from Syren and Ropes of Scale and I can't help it, I will not use the stuff that came in the kit. Like you said, it all boils down to what we want. Thanks. 👍😀

[DavidG]

On 5/20/2022 at 8:14 PM, chris watton said:

even for just 30 kits worth, that is 34,000 blocks and deadeyes

Chris, just out of interest.. how do you pack that amount of blocks to your kits? do they come already counted and sorted from the supplier? I can imagine, it can be a nightmare..

[chris watton]

19 minutes ago, DavidG said:

Chris, just out of interest.. how do you pack that amount of blocks to your kits? do they come already counted and sorted from the supplier? I can imagine, it can be a nightmare..

No, they come in bags. For example, when I order 15000 3mm single blocks, they will come in a bag of 15000. We count them out for each kit - as each kit has a different number of blocks. Same applies to the higher quality (and much more expensive) pear blocks

[DavidG]

for comparison, here is my collection of blocks from different sources. From left to right:

1 -  Master Korabel 3mm pear

2  - Syren, 3mm boxwood (2019 version)

3  - Hismodel, 5mm walnut

4 - old kit block. to be fair, the kit is already built and the worst bits were left over. the concept is still visible, square cuts in brittle wood

5 - Occre 5mm boxwood

 

All of the aftermarket blocks are great. I tend to prefer EU sourcing due to shipping and tax. The MK blocks are really good, but found their availability is less consistent. That's why I went for the hismodel ones for the larger sizes, and I'm pretty much satisfied with them.

But the Occre ones are not bad either, they are uniform, cut from good quality wood, and with some rework they can be made acceptable. The problem is there are no variety of sizes, so some upgrade will be still needed, with the involved inconsistency of blocks on the model.

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by DavidG

[allanyed]

The MK blocks look to be very nice in appearance.  I looked on-line but they only appear to go to 5mm which is the equivalent of 9.45" at 1:48, where as there are blocks up to about 16" needed.  Do you know if they make them in larger sizes as well?   Also, the blocks you show for Syren look nothing like what is on their website for the new CNC made blocks which go up 6.35mm.   Photo below of the Syren blocks.  Allan

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by allanyed

[DavidG]

the MK site shows blocks up to 5mm on their website, I'm not aware of bigger ones.

the Syren blocks above was from 2019, I edited the post to make it clear. They are still very nice and consistent.

[Gregory]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

.....blocks up to about 16"

Anything above 6mm would be a really good exercise in making one's own blocks..

 

If you have a small table saw, this method from Mondfeld would be a breeze..

Edited May 23, 2022 by Gregory

[Dave_E]

No matter what I end up doing… those CNC blocks from Syren are absolutely gorgeous! 👍😀

[BenD]

If you look on Crafty Sailor you will find the MK blocks range from 2mm - 7mm. They are missing 6mm blocks but you can find that size at https://vanguardmodels.co.uk/

 

I do plan on making them myself someday. If I can make them quickly with the help of a CNC machine I will sell them on my site. I also wonder if they can be 3D printed with Dark brown resin and look decent. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by BenD

[clarkt]

I made blocks using the method shown in Zu Mondfeld for a few years but it was always pretty haphazard with varying results.  However I went all in for the very systematic process developed by William Sproule which he described in the Nautical Research Journal (Vol. 61, No. 3, Fall 2016.)  It does require a good mini table saw, and an X-Y table with some sort of drill press, but the blocks can be excellent.