Grecian by DB789 - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - 1:64 - American Privateer Schooner

[DB789]

On 8/6/2023 at 3:06 AM, aliluke said:

Hi Dan

This is looking great! Every time I see this ship I like it more.

 

For breeching ropes I use 0.6mm Morope which feels about right to me.

For accelerating the aging of copper I use a radical technique, which you can see in my Fly log, but there are other ways of doing it which might be more pleasant...

Alistair,

 

Thanks so much for the advice. I have found a diagram on how to rig the cannon that Chris had included in the plans as an optional extra which suggests 0.5mm rope so that sounds about right. 
 

I’ve been trying to decide what to do regarding the ageing of the copper. I’m not adverse to the “bodily fluid” technique, only that looking at your Fly it fully weathers the copper which might look out of place when Grecian’s upperworks won’t be aged at all. I had been thinking of using some medical saline solution I had lying around instead of urine. Now I’m thinking that I’ll wire wool the hull and allow it to lose some of its shine slowly and naturally. At the point when the model looks like it’s moving from an older model with old copper to a weathered model I’ll then varnish the copper to seal it. 

Many thanks

 

Dan

[DB789]

Fitting out Grecian’s hull is nearing completion. A few remaining bits and pieces such as rudder chains and companionway stanchions. Also anything that requires rigging such as the wheel and binnacle (not glued yet) and the cannons / carronades. This is one of my favourite stages in building a model and true to form Vanguard’s fittings are high quality and go together perfectly. 

I hate applying decals but these went on very cleanly. I sanded the stern with 1000 grade sandpaper and applied gloss varnish first to reduce the risk of silvering. Then Matt varnish over the top to seal them once dry. 

I need to decide what armament this Grecian will have. I prefer the look of full gunports but as an American privateer she had 4 guns and in RN service was a ‘ten gun schooner’. Both leave a lot of empty gunports. The kit plan of 16 guns looks good, but I’m tempted to fill all 18 gunports, using the little four pounders in the two forward ports. I don’t for a moment doubt Chris’s research and suggestion that these ports weren’t used and don’t leave room to work the guns - but aesthetically I prefer it and as any more than ten guns is departing from historical accuracy (or really four guns as I have her registered in Baltimore and she’ll fly the Stars and Stripes) - so why not? 

My current plan for each side is as follows:

 

4 pounder

carronade

6 pounder

6 pounder

6 pounder

carronade

carronade

carronade

carronade

As a pilot thinking in terms of weight and balance - is that just too heavy forward especially given the shape of her hull with most buoyancy aft.

I have painted the AK Matt varnish on the forward starboard 4 pounder but not the other guns (photo below). It does make that cannon a little shiny in bright light. On Alert I didn’t varnish the guns and they stayed properly matt. Not sure which is better? Looking at photos of HMS Victory’s cannon suggests that they should have a bit of a shine on them? 

The only warning I have for other builders of Grecian is that Vanguard supply ~200 PE-8 pieces which are the ubiquitous pin-loops (not sure what the right term is for these). Examining the plans and instructions I counted ~195 of these needed if 16 guns are included. They are used everywhere including the masts, decks, gunports, channels, rudder chains, binnacle, etc. The instructions do warn you not to make all the cannons and carronades as there won’t be enough PE-8. But by my reckoning even making 18 guns (4 loops per cannon or carronades carriage) makes you short and that’s before the carpet monster takes its share. I’m so used to Vanguard kits oversupplying small PE parts in particular that I’ve not searched the floor for every loop that escaped me - I will be crawling around the floor later this evening to see if I can recover any… I’ve plenty of spare quite similar pin-loops from the Vanguard fishing boats and Alert that I can use on Grecian. They’re not identical in size and shape but no one except I will ever know or notice. Vanguard do supply enough PE-8 to complete the kit - but on this build if one escapes, it’s certainly worth tracking it down. 
 

I won’t have any time to work on Grecian for the next fortnight. My next job will be attempting to add a breach rope to each of the guns and rigging the wheel. 

[ccoyle]

You're not wasting any time on this. Wasn't this kit released, like, yesterday?? 😉

[AJohnson]

She is looking excellent Dan.  I can see why Chris said he thinks the front two gun ports were not used, I would love to know how the guns were supposed to recoil if ever fired! 😱 (unless little Carronades on slides?)

[aliluke]

Speed definitely doesn't equal poor work in your case Dan. It looks superb. 

[DB789]

On 8/15/2023 at 2:05 AM, ccoyle said:

You're not wasting any time on this. Wasn't this kit released, like, yesterday?? 😉

Thanks Chris, as the other Chris mentioned in his model update log, Grecian is not much different to build from the Vanguard fishing boats and I’ve built five of those so well practised! She’s a bit like a bigger Erycina. The planking was actually easier than on most of the fishers, the only harder aspects were not breaking those very fragile gunport arches and first time at coppering the hull (definitely room for improvement on this effort). 

[DB789]

On 8/15/2023 at 7:58 AM, AJohnson said:

She is looking excellent Dan.  I can see why Chris said he thinks the front two gun ports were not used, I would love to know how the guns were supposed to recoil if ever fired! 😱 (unless little Carronades on slides?)

Thanks Andrew. I do wonder too why the Americans built a privateer with 18 gunports and only put 4 guns on her. I can understand being a few guns short due to cost or availability of cannons, but 14 empty gunports? 

 

I note that Alert also has an empty gunport forward that would be difficult to work and is almost covered by the anchor. 

[DB789]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:00 AM, aliluke said:

Speed definitely doesn't equal poor work in your case Dan. It looks superb. 

Thanks Alistair, unfortunately iPhone photos do lie and make her look much tidier than she is in reality! 

[CiscoH]

DB789 I don't want to hijack your log with Tangent Questions but maybe you know.  I've read it was normal in big vessels with plenty of space to mix carronades and long guns, but was it common on such small vessels?  I could see it being a positive (hit the target from a distance with the long guns, then batter them with the carronades at short range before boarding) or a negative (jacks of all trades can be bad at both tasks).   And having written that last sentence both options sound improbable- I thought privateers usually preyed on unarmed shipping where threat alone was enough to induce Heaving To.  If you encountered anything big you ran like heck, so maybe having many gun ports and only 4 cannons was plenty; more just weighed you down and made you slower.  What are the odds you encounter another vessel exactly the same size and armament where having more cannons would be beneficial?

 

Personally I like the look of your current plan of every gunport filled, even if recoil from the stem cannons would probably wreck the bits. 

 

cisco

[Seahawk1313]

Very nice work,but I think you are over gunning the ship.  American privateers had large crews to take other ships by boarding.  They wouldn't get into gun duels because they didn't want to do much damage the ship they wanted to capture.  Privateering was about making money.  Any guns carried would mostly be mid ship for weight considerations, especially on these schooners.  Four to six guns were I think the normal.  Just my opinion.  Your ship is coming along VERY nicely.  You are the captain so you can arm it as you see fit.  - Hal 

[DB789]

Cisco, Hal,

 

I think that you’re both right - I am overgunning Grecian for aesthetic purposes, the kit plans do this too but to a lesser degree (16 guns - 12x carronades and 4x cannon). Chris in the instructions is very clear that Grecian only had 4x cannons and no carronades as an American privateer. That’s a choice I could have gone with, but in my opinion the build would have looked incomplete despite being historically accurate.
 

What I couldn’t get my head around was why the privateer captain / owner built a ship with 18 gunports and only mounted 4 guns. I think your explanations of how privateers were used and that looking like having more guns but remaining light to catch prizes makes a great deal of sense. 
 

With regard to mixing carronades and cannons I defer again to Chris’s research and knowledge that as a RN 10-gun schooner she would have been fitted with 8x carronades and 2x long six pounder cannons.
 

I suspect that I probably have too many cannons forward which being much heavier than carronades might upset the weight and balance of the schooner. 
 

Thank you very much for the advice and info. 
 

Dan 

[DB789]

I’ve added breach ropes to each of the guns and carronades. I don’t plan to add the training tackle as with my rope skills it would just look a mess and wouldn’t improve the model. The ropes need some Matt varnish applied and then to be shaped to hang more naturally. 
The two four pounder cannon forward don’t have a breach rope as there’s no space for eyebolts on one side of the gunport due to the cat head and also I don’t have enough eyebolts. Unlike the other guns these are not glued to the ship and I may remove them. 
Rudder chains have also been fitted. I needed to use open eyebolts from Alert to attach the chain to the hull as the individual chain links  were too small for me to cut open and then close up again. The PE open rings from the carronades fittings worked to join the chain to the PE fitting on the rudder. 

The instructions for adding the binnacle show the recessed area with the compass in facing forward. 
Is that right? I can’t see how the helmsman would see the compass to steer a course. 
Turning the binnacle round however means that the wheel mounting almost entirely blocks the recess too (see below), although it’s just about possible that the helmsman might be able to see the compass. As you can see I’ve gone for a green and black colour scheme for the skylight which is a mild deviation from the black on the prototype. 
Any thoughts or advice on this would be greatly appreciated. She’d definitely look more interesting with the binnacle facing forward as per the instructions. 
 

Next job is to fit the wheel and binnacle and rig them. 
 

Other than that the hull is almost complete. I need to add some blocks to eyebolts, stanchions around the companionway and steel wool the hull before starting masting and rigging proper. 
 

The 3D printed cutters that Vanguard include are super for this kit and my skill level where I’d struggle to do a good job planking a wooden cutter. However, they are hostage to being able to paint the interior in a faux wood colour on both the plastic, wooden and any PE parts. Another option I’m considering is whether to paint the inside of the cutter white and green like the outside - would that look odd? I’ll only include the cutter on the finished Grecian if her paint job doesn’t detract from the main vessel. 
 

A couple of pics showing how Grecian compares to Alert which is now cased. 
I still haven’t tidied up the ropes and added coils to Alert so she’s not completely finished yet. Likely I’ll do a job lot and make up rope coils for both boats at the same time. 

 

[ccoyle]

2 hours ago, DB789 said:

I don’t plan to add the training tackle as with my rope skills it would just look a mess and wouldn’t improve the model.

 

My next wooden kit, when I eventually get around to it, will be in 1/72 scale. I'm thinking I will likewise not add the tackles to that model, as in 1/72 scale the blocks get ridiculously tiny.

[mugje]

The color choice of the skylight is nice.

[Theodosius]

IMO, good choice with the full armament! Who cares, if the real thing had some less guns!

[DB789]

Steering gear and binnacle fitted and glued. Went for the binnacle opening facing forward as per the instructions. Added the cord between the stanchions around the companionway and painted the tops of the bitts white.

The masts and bowsprit on this boat were pretty straightforward on this boat without a lot of taper. All made much easier with the small Proxxon lathe. 

The sticks on this boat are long and make her quite tricky to photograph. 

This last photo has the masts and bowsprit fully fitted out with blocks, eye pins and painted. The masts are now glued in place. Everything goes together perfectly as is usual in a Vanguard model. The bowsprit isn’t glued to make her easier to work on whilst shrouds and ratlines are added. 

A very small thing that builders of Grecian need to look out for is part PE-14 which is the iron strap for the bob stay which attaches to the stem post. This part isn’t mentioned in the instructions although there is a photo and it’s in the plans. PE-14 has some marks on it which I presumed to be where to bend it 90 degrees each side of the stem post - as can be seen in the photo from the instructions below this is the wrong place and makes the bracket too wide. Having bent it there and then tried to rebend it the part disintegrated on me. I’ve improvised by adding a near square eye pin from Erycina to the middle of the stem post and the two side straps either side. I’ll add a photo later. Looks OK and will do the job. 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by DB789

[DB789]

Shrouds fitted. Catharpins and ratlines next. I may be some time… 

I wasn’t familiar with catharpins before, on Grecian’s plans there’s two lines running between the brass rods on the port and starboard shrouds. On Jim’s build log photos these both seem to pass aft of the mast, but on the plans it looks like one is at the front of the catharpins and would be in front of the mast. What would be the norm for catharpins? 
 

From the instructions:

I’ve checked Lennarth Petersson’s rigging books which suggest that there should be a line in front of the mast. 

 

Many thanks

 

[chris watton]

The catharpins helped pull the upper shrouds in.

[aliluke]

It's impossible not to like this ship, the kit and your rendition of it. The bowsprit says purpose, sail and speed. The array of guns - watch out, we are fast and dangerous!

 

Lovely work.

[DB789]

On 9/23/2023 at 10:26 AM, chris watton said:

The catharpins helped pull the upper shrouds in.

Thanks Chris, much appreciated. I’ve run a line across between the port and starboard catharpins on each mast both behind and in front of the mast. That’s what I think your plans show although differs from photos in the instructions - although the lines might not have been fitted yet in the photos. 

[DB789]

Not had enough time shipbuilding recently, so just a few photos. To break up the monotony of ratlines I added the upper shrouds, futtock shrouds and backstays to the foremast before starting ratlines on the main mast. 

[BobG]

Very nice work, Dan! I'm amazed at how long that bowsprit is too!

[DB789]

1 hour ago, BobG said:

Very nice work, Dan! I'm amazed at how long that bowsprit is too!

Thanks Bob, it’s huge. Going to require a large case… 

[BobG]

2 hours ago, DB789 said:

Thanks Bob, it’s huge. Going to require a large case… 

I like that model a lot but the overall length with the long bowsprit might be a deal breaker for me since we live in a smaller home.

[DB789]

On 10/10/2023 at 12:26 AM, BobG said:

I like that model a lot but the overall length with the long bowsprit might be a deal breaker for me since we live in a smaller home.

Grecian is a really fun kit, very straightforward to build, but she’s going to take up a lot of room. 
 

I’ve put together a table based on the dimensions of the kits on Vanguard’s website. The measurements are at the widest / longest / highest part so would be the absolute minimum dimensions for the kit to fit within a rectangular case with no additional space around it. 
Grecian is longer than Sphinx and the overall volume of a case only marginally less than Sphinx which is a much more complex build and the one I’m aiming for eventually.
 

Grecian’s volume is roughly double that needed for Alert or Speedy, the latter being surprisingly small.
 

I think that the height measurement for Trial is wrong on the website, in the photos she looks taller than the larger fishing boats but Chris’s height measurement says 285mm. I suspect her correct height should be 385mm which makes her volume 68k cm cubed so just between Speedy and Duchess of K. 
 

Ranger is my next build. After that I’ll tackle my first square rigger. That will almost certainly be the new version of Speedy. I did debate Speedy vs DoK, but DoK is much smaller than Speedy and has the rigging of three not two masts to fit in. I think too soon for me to tackle such a lot of rigging on such a small ship.

[DB789]

Tying the ratlines, one of the more tedious jobs.  There’s almost 200 ratlines to be tied across both masts. There’s only ratlines on the lower shrouds on Grecian, but these masts are tall… clove hitches galore, almost 700 knots. 

Main mast upper shrouds, futtock shrouds and backstays fitted. 

I do like the 3D shape of her rigging starting to come together at this stage. 
 

I’ll likely make and fit the gaffs and boom before  the standing rigging on the bowsprit. Once the bowsprit is glued she’ll become a big, fragile model to move around and the likelihood of a breakage increases.  
 

When it does come to fitting the bowsprit there’s some gammoning to be done, can anyone suggest how to tie the end of this off neatly? 
 

Many thanks 

[Dr PR]

The books say to just lash the free end to the nearest loop of the gammoning with seizing. That is what I did on my model.

[DB789]

3 hours ago, Dr PR said:

The books say to just lash the free end to the nearest loop of the gammoning with seizing. That is what I did on my model.

Thanks Phil, I’ll try that. 

[DB789]

Standing rigging I think now complete. No big issues, but it’s certainly been more complex than the Vanguard fishers, albeit only harder than Alert in that there’s more of her having two masts not one. 
 

The gaffs and boom are just held on by parrel beads and are not in their final positions. 

She’s not an easy model to photograph well in her entirety without a photo bay with white background given the height of the masts and lengths of bowsprit and boom. So apologies for the not great photos below. 

There’s a lot of lines going to the bowsprit, but the Vanguard plans are incredibly clear and split these out superbly across a couple of plan sheets. Aided by Jim H’s excellent build log photos of Grecian. 
 

Phil thanks for the advice on gammoning, that worked a treat. 

With Alert. 

Running rigging and foremast spars still to be added. Anchors I’ll fit last. No decision on the ship’s boat yet, I need to do more work on it before deciding. 

 

Thanks for all the likes and encouragement. She’s a great kit and I thoroughly recommend her to other builders - surprised I’m the only Grecian build log on MSW other than Jim’s prototype. 

[Thukydides]

Looking good. You are making fast progress.