HMS Druid by kruginmi - 1:48 - cross-section - Hahn

[dvm27]

Cumulative error is a constant threat in plank on frame modeling. It's still a beautiful looking hull and you might consider fairing out any unevenness and planking her outside. That would cover most of what you are not happy with. It would make a very nice companion to your fully framed next effort.

[kruginmi]

Onto a fresh start.

 

First thing was to confirm(!) the photocopies that I had produced.  

 

First I compared the copy with the original:

 

Then I flipped the copy over to very the mirror image across the center line:

 

Finally I compared the frame copy to the previous/next frame:

 

Using the light box this was pretty straightforward and showed within a small margin everything was consistent.  So I am good.  Well almost....

 

I need to figure out where the futtock joins should occur to give me the right lay of the thickstuff within the hull.  I started with frame 18 and with the centerline defined the berth and gun decks.  Then I defined the two sets of joins (denoted as A and B on the following pic).  I wanted one to be defined midway between the berth and gun deck, one for the limber strake, one just below the berth deck and the last to fall in between the previous denoted joins.

 

The same was done on frame pattern 27.  After defining the joins all the heights were transferred to the centerline:

 

Transferring this measurements to the side view on their respective frames and I connected the dots to define the correct heights for all the rest of the frames.  The joins are denoted by a circle through the line:

 

I have never really seen this technique required but definitely should provide a good consistent set of joins.  The middle join really shows a rise on the profile but defines a midway location at each point.

 

Comments are always welcomed (especially prior to cutting wood once again!).  Is there anything else I need to think about?

 

Mark

[kruginmi]

All right, I guess when you wake up in the middle of the night with a question in your mind specific to chocks, you are probably not on an even keel (pun intended).  However, the question raised in my mind did end up raising others.

 

I am doing a lot of studying of the TFFM HMN Swan Class Sloops books and for those that have them (for this discussion volume 1) I will include references.  For others I apologize but don't want to include copies of the contents.

 

My discussion centers around this diagram:

 

At the top you can see the way I originally made the portion of frame 18 which straddles the keel, which is composed of two sides laminated together (split apart here).  In the rework and elimination of one of the joins (see page 190 TFFM V1) this has caused the the piece going across the centerline to collapse into a much smaller length (denoted as the B piece).  The other side was simply cut across the centerline straight down and had a chock added for strength.  This is the issue - it didn't seem right to put two chocks against each other which would happen if I added them the same way to the B piece (which would then overlap the A piece chock).

 

The view of Page 190 seemed to show a chock at the centerline as I originally created them but the companion side seemed in question.  I found on page 156 a good view of the bottom connection superimposed which leads me to believe that the bottom joins do not have chocks at all.  I have redrawn this view below the others.  I am thinking that the line denoted by 'V' has been left off the view on page 190.  This is backed up on page 140 of the actual pics of construction Mr. Antscherl provides of his Tisiphone class ship and the build up of a frame pair.

 

Having drawn this out it is also revealed that the second futtock B will require around 17 square feet with a good curve to it.  This is a natural occurrence of going from 7 futtock pieces for this frame to just 5.  Being a cargo ship this has a much fuller body than the TFFM plans shown amidships.

 

I am thinking I might need to add an additional futtock (and thus another set of thickstuff) back in to each side to cut down the 17 feet.  I will go back to the original 4 in the hold each side.

 

I am also thinking of eliminating the chock at the centerline and going for that more complicated join.  Again, good news is that I will really only have to do this join on the extreme aft and extreme forward frames since all else will be covered up.

 

Thoughts?

Mark

Edited March 6, 2015 by kruginmi

[kruginmi]

To use a phrase from Monty Python:  'Not dead yet.'  Slow but sure the new frames have been generated.  Everything triple checked and locked in.  This morning I glued the framework to the base jig (excepting first and last frames) and everything is in its proper place:

 

 

I need to add the walnut chocks to the 18th and 27th frames prior to gluing those in and then fair the hull.  The hull is already so close to being smooth, which is how it should be.  Shouldn't take too much effort.

 

I did add removable spacer blocks (in the pics) at the mid-points either side and will probably not add spacer blocks.  Once the mid-section is good to go I will add the wales for strength.

 

One other difference from previous attempts was to get all the frames in place insuring everything measured out correctly before gluing anything.  I only added glue once in place and pushed it around where the frame and the bottom jig intersected.  No chance of it grabbing prior to being in its final place.

 

Mark

[egkb]

Great to see you catching up to where you were Mark.. looks a treat !

 

Eamonn

[kruginmi]

Thanks Eamonn and all the likes,

 

Still slogging ahead as time allows.  I have attached all three strakes of the wales both port and starboard.

 

 

I am still using the extra deep slotted keel jig for holding everything together.  I have also opted to skip the frame spacers.  Using another deep slotted keel jig I insured correct spacing and glued the wales (freezing the frame spacing) then removed the slotted jig.  Fairing has occurred only over the wales area - which was pretty easy.  Now that the frame has been stiffened I can easily fair the rest (externally).

 

 

Next up will be removing the frame spreaders and then work on the internal fairing.

 

 

As is evident in the pics this will not take too much time.  Very soon start affixing the thick stuff in the hold.

 

Stay Building My Friends,

Mark

[kruginmi]

Hey, look at me, I can glue a deck clamp!

 

 

A long story (with a pretty happy ending so far...):  I turned 50 in April and always knew this was going to be a breakout year.  Not to linger on the point but after a series of events I was diagnosed with a rare disease (Mommy always said I was special).  A few specialists and then a 3 week hospital stay I was back dealing with all the yard and house work that backed up.

 

But tonight, tonight I returned to the yard and cut and glued a deck clamp.

 

 

Well, that went so well I completed the keelson:

 

 

Not too much, I know, but a sign of things returning to normal.  Now I have to look at a sprint Triathlon in less than 60 days and a lot of training I am behind on so who knows when the next update will be posted, but make no doubt there will be more.

 

Stay Building my Friends,

Mark

[mtaylor]

Mark,

 

Good to hear that you're back on top of your game.  The build is looking great. 

[Omega1234]

Hi Mark

 

It's nice to be "special", but I'm sure that getting crook is the last thing you, or, your Mother had in mind!

 

Seriously though, I'm glad to hear that you're over your illness and can get back to your model. I must say , also, that I was wondering what had happened to your updates...guess that explains things!

 

Very nice progress, so far, too, by the way.

 

All the best

 

Patrick

Edited May 22, 2015 by Omega1234

[kruginmi]

Thanks for all the likes and words of confidence.  This is just something I have to learn to live with, probably won't be my last!

 

Focused on getting the thickstuff in the hold.  With all the work to define where the futtock joins are (and thus the thickstuff placement) I am a lot happier with the result than the first go round.

 

 

Next up is to use add the adjoining layer (3/32" basswood) next to the thick stuff (1/8" basswood).  Regular planks will be with 1/16" basswood.  I should have the lower hold buttoned up within two weeks.  The exterior hull will also be totally planked.

 

Sure feels good when you cut something for one side of the build and it also fits perfectly on the opposite side.

 

Stay Building my Friends,

Mark

[captainbob]

 

Sure feels good when you cut something for one side of the build and it also fits perfectly on the opposite side.

 

Stay Building my Friends,

Mark

No truer words were ever spoken.  That's when you go into your happy dance.

 

Bob

[kruginmi]

Question:  Filler Pieces.  

 

Another thread on this forum has talked about filler pieces - wood between the frames from the keel up to a certain level to stop water being caught between the frames and causing rot.

 

This would then form a smooth run under the limber boards for water to pass.  I 'assume' that the frame location where the pumps are do not have them to create the trough through which the pumps actually work.

 

This cross section does have the pumps included and I intend to keep a couple of limber boards off to show underneath.

 

Now is the time to add them, the question is do I have the right intent and should I?  Suggestions welcomed.

 

Mark

[kruginmi]

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words...

 

 

Finished the 'stuff next to the thickstuff' and added the proposed filler pieces on one half of the ship (between the limber strake and keelson).  These pieces are not glued.  The one piece missing is where the pump is located.

 

Next up is the regular planks in the tween spaces and ponder the filling pieces in the meanwhile.

 

Mark

 

[Omega1234]

Hi Mark

 

Looking at your cross section, I can't help but think: Structurally beautiful in its simplicity, yet, deceptively complex in its construction.

 

You're doing a great job and I especially like how crisp and clean your workmanship is.

 

Nice job!

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

[kruginmi]

Patrick, thanks for stopping by!

 

I was pretty surprised with this cross section.  Having completed the full model in the Admiralty Style I had originally thought this was just going to be just a small scale repetition of that build.  I never knew what I didn't know.  The inter-relationship between all the components has really been brought home.  You can read as much as you want, but until you build......

 

Everything is there for a purpose, usually specifically tied to other parts of the build (like the thickstuff).  This build has been an excellent learning experience for me prior to undertaking a fully planked one (internally and externally).  I am looking forward to raising the mast one day in the future.

 

I like your simplicity comment.  Once you put in all the work and you do achieve that simplicity in look that is a key indicator that it was done right.  Hopefully this will continue in the future (without any more REDOs!).

 

Mark

Edited May 30, 2015 by kruginmi

[kruginmi]

Something I had meant to say with the last photo (an admission):  Some may notice the limber strake looks differently spaced with regards to the keelson than previously.  This is what happens when you just plow ahead and forget the basics.

 

When ready to apply I went to the previous prototype and liked the look so glued in at the same distance.  I had conveniently put aside in my brain that the limberstrake should still straddle the futtock join.  Of course this join had moved in the new build.  The next day this suddenly struck me and I wondered if I should do anything about it.  The join was on the aft side of each frame so once this was totally built and mounted 99.9% of people would have no idea of the issue.  But I would.

 

Luckily this was the perfect time for access so a quick deconstruction later I was able to re-glue in the correct position.  I probably spent more time sweating over the decision to re-do it than the time to actually make the change.  Soon as I started planking the outside this wouldn't have been the case.

 

So, lesson learned, never take for granted the next step of construction.  Always think it through, especially the why it is there.

 

mark

[Omega1234]

Patrick, thanks for stopping by!

 

I was pretty surprised with this cross section.  Having completed the full model in the Admiralty Style I had originally thought this was just going to be just a small scale repetition of that build.  I never knew what I didn't know.  The inter-relationship between all the components has really been brought home.  You can read as much as you want, but until you build......

 

Everything is there for a purpose, usually specifically tied to other parts of the build (like the thickstuff).  This build has been an excellent learning experience for me prior to undertaking a fully planked one (internally and externally).  I am looking forward to raising the mast one day in the future.

 

I like your simplicity comment.  Once you put in all the work and you do achieve that simplicity in look that is a key indicator that it was done right.  Hopefully this will continue in the future (without any more REDOs!).

 

Mark

 

 

Hi Mark

 

I definitely agree with your comment about "everything having a purpose", because I was struck by the very same thing when I built my models of Bounty, Victory, Lennox and Pandora.  Everything in each of those ships served a precise purpose and to think that these were built in the days before computers, machines, etc.  The ingenuity and skill of those shipwrights was truly astonishing, particularly given the technology of the day..

 

All the best

 

Patrick.

[kruginmi]

Moving forward as time allows.

 

Buttoned up the lower hold inner planking:

 

 

Big item for me is a self imposed milestone, with the addition of the keel, false keel (purpleheart of course) and garboard strake I have now surpassed the initial build in completeness.  

 

 

It wasn't a quick redo by any stretch but one I have no regrets for.

 

I now need to add the 3/32" planks next to the wales and think about painting them black while it is still easy.  I also want to get some deck beams in and maybe start getting a main mast prototyped out.  Oh, a stand.  Alright, a long list of things.

 

Always a next step....

Mark

[LFrankCPA]

In the Army there is a saying that no plan survives first contact,

 

George Forman said: "Everybody has a plan, until they're hit"....

Edited June 3, 2015 by LFrankCPA

[Mirabell61]

beautiful work on your "Druid" section Mark,

 

clean and precise

 

Nils

[kruginmi]

Now where was I?  It seems a common question this time of year.  First off, a pic of my primary hobby the last couple of months, finishing a local sprint triathlon (my sixth).  Not even close to a podium finish but I enjoy them.

 

 

So on to the main mast.  The Druid plans I have show a max width approaching 1/2" so a wood blank was first cut to this dimension:

 

 

I then transferred the dimensions at the identified portions of the mast and planed, chiseled, and sanded to the correct profile:

 

 

next up was to make the appropriate portions of the mast octagonal and for this a jig was required.  I ended up making a small and large one at the same time for future spar work.  I put a stop block on the bottom for solid footing against the edge of the bench.

 

 

I dialed in the correct proportions on each face to render an equal octagonal face and hope it works out.  It didn't take too long to construct so if the first one has issues I will easily use it as a learning exercise and construct another better one.  No worries.

 

So tonight the mast sits in the jig ready for taking off some wood.  I intend to leave the tenon and the cap area square to allow laying flat if required.  I added an extra area near the 45 degree slot for this flat work.  

 

 

However, my next race is a week from Saturday so tomorrow AM I need to do some running.....

 

Mark

[Omega1234]

Hi Mark

 

Good luck on the masts and also, good luck with next week's race. Go get 'em!!!

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

[kruginmi]

This 'step' is coming up soon (pun intended) and I ask for some recommendations.

 

The ship plans only show the mast step from the side:

 

 

This shows a step on the keelson that appears to be parallel the keelson.  Note that the forward well wall pushes against the forward part of the step (no space for wedges).  For my full ship model oh so many years ago I made my best guess at how to do this:

 

 

From other builds (and the TFFM) the steps tend to lie perpendicular to the keelson with wedges forward and aft on the keelson to affix at a particular spot.  I am leaning towards using this perpendicular step and not what I did on the original build.

 

Thoughts?  Again, this was originally an American built cargo vessel from 1774.

 

Mark

[mtaylor]

Mark,

 

You did what I think most of us who have built from Hahn's plans have done.  He doesn't give us that kind of detail.  Pretty sad state of affairs but it's the best we can do.  And yours look very good.

[kruginmi]

That hesitation you have after having successfully created a proportional sized mast and then knowing the next step was to cut into the mast to make mating surfaces for the cheeks.....

 

After having cut the main mast into an octagonal shape I found scrapers much better for making the final shape round than sandpaper.  It was especially satisfying laying the constructed mast over the plans and seeing very close conformance to the specified dimensions.

 

So on to the cheeks.  I picked out the wood to use as the cheeks and then subtracted that width from the mast head base.  Then the bottom of the cheeks was picked out based on period photos (not annotated on plans) and a straight line drawn connecting the two.  Then a combination of the jig saw and a lot of sanding gave me a straight join area.

 

 

I will use two layers of wood to accomplish the bibs.  I just think that would be a lot better looking than taking a thicker piece of wood and shaving off most for the cheeks.

 

Slow but sure progress.  Another Sprint Tri in four days.....

 

Mark

[mtaylor]

Fascinating work, Mark.  You're also teaching us or me at least.   Good luck on the Sprint Tri.

[kruginmi]

With a little time I jumped into the bibs and cheeks.  First up was to glue in the blanks for both:

 

 

So far so good.  There are a few small gaps but a little sanding and some glue will get rid of those.  Also, the mast will be painted so no worries.  

 

Now for shaping the blanks.  I wanted to protect the mast itself so I used some painters tape to provide a cover for the mast itself.  Most of the shaping was accomplished with a razor blade.

 

 

A relatively short time later I had both sides done:

 

 

For anyone new to making masts (such as I am) I would suggest practicing on basswood, even if that is not your final wood for your model.  Shapes, methods and results can be done to understand the process prior to your final try.

 

Thanks for stopping by,

Mark

P.S.  Finished the second Tri making all my target times.  Working towards the final one of the season on September 12.

[Omega1234]

Hi Mark

 

Nice job on the masts! Congratulations, also, for finishing your marathon with all target times being met.

 

Cheers and all the best!

 

Patrick

[kruginmi]

On to the bibs.  One lesson learned I have taken to heart is when working with a complex mating surface (ie non straight) I do not cut the whole part to shape and hope for the best.  I always have to file a little here, scrape a little there with the result being the constructed piece is just a little 'off' on one face or another.  This is especially true for me for stems.

 

So, I focus on one edge at a time, starting with the mating edge required.  The target shape was cut out of the mast join and then (supposedly) transferred to the oversized piece and cut out:

 

 

Once the join was satisfactory I marked and cut out the top edge, insuring it totally aligned with the bib top on the mast.

 

 

Now the curving part is easy (compared to the rest).  The curves where drawn out, cut and sanded.  Before gluing I produced the other bib piece (marking the finished one with which side it belongs to FIRST).  Replicating the curve was much easier piece to piece off ship.  After all that work (maybe two hours in the workshop) I glued the bib pieces on.

 

 

Looking at the plans for  the two thousandth time afterwards I did realize the bibs were not only supposed to support the top beam but also slightly go into the topmast space.  Initially you wonder how the heck that happened.  I finally opted to laminate a 1/32" piece of basswood on the inside face for this issue.  The top will be painted (black) and it will be basically invisible (unless pointed out, which I try not to do).  So, reprieve and lesson learned for the next mast down the road.

 

Stay Building My Friends,

Mark

[Mirabell61]

Mark,

 

nice clean work on Hull and masting, this will be a very good looking cross section

 

Nils